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If indirect became usless vs altioc and raven guard, MAYBE IT WOULDN'T GET SPAMMED EVERY GAME.

I'm preemptively jacking up Russes because 150 pt T8 tanks with free shots and free PoTMS are too good.

Not saying IG were hit hard AT ALL, but they did receive some notable nerfs.

-baneblades can't overwatch if there's enemies within 1" now
-"crush them" strategem can only be used on our own turn
-Grand Strategist and Kurov's aquila required the warlord/holder to be physically on the board, making them potentially vulnerable to snipers.

I'm fine with these minor nerfs, as they seemed like poorly worded rules from the beginning anyways. It should be noted that IG players can't spam company commanders now though which can cause a nuisance to some infantry squad heavy lists.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

Didn't Commissars just get a double buff? I don't know enough about most armies to say for certain, but I think commissars are the only unit to get both nerfed and then later buffed. Regardless of whether or not its Reece, something seems off that an army that has always shown up in a large tournament top 8 since 8th edition has started and continues to be an important part of the meta receives little to no nerfs. Especially if GW took almost a month extra time to "analyze tournament results" before the big FAQ. Reece gets too much blame for things that can't be proven, but it does seem like someone is skewing balance.

Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Guard has Reece and therefore Frontline gaming in their corner now. They will be good as long as that continues.

Commissar and Conscript nerf says "what?".

Bluntly speaking, Reecius is in "their corner" when it comes to the way he plays. Screw anyone else, his stuff tends to come out okay--which is to say "Soup".

Didn't Commissars just get a double buff? I don't know enough about most armies to say for certain, but I think commissars are the only unit to get both nerfed and then later buffed. Regardless of whether or not its Reece, something seems off that an army that has always shown up in a large tournament top 8 since 8th edition has started and continues to be an important part of the meta receives little to no nerfs. Especially if GW took almost a month extra time to "analyze tournament results" before the big FAQ. Reece gets too much blame for things that can't be proven, but it does seem like someone is skewing balance.

Commissars got their points lowered and their ability tweaked slightly...

But they still suck in comparison to what they originally were(which is a thing that several factions have been given as army traits) and they still will not be taken in many instances. They're garbage tier and while I'm perfectly happy with them being no longer crucial for Guard armies, it's still nonsense that an iconic unit that has behaved in a specific way for every iteration of its existence is basically being shoveled off because of whiny people who couldn't deal with soup lists.

Also, Reece gets blame with regards to the Guard stuff right now because he's been very vocal that how they play now is how he thinks they should play.
Quite frankly, his version of Guard is every bit as bad as Robin Cruddace's. They were made for each other in awfulness.

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

I think people tend to forget just how awful LD is on guardsman, outside of Valhallans. I've had squads decimated from bad rolls just form taking a few losses here and there. Granted commissars got a bit of a buff but even them that means im blowing a chunk of points to get some LD bonuses on the table instead of things like special weapons or more bodies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

I think maybe MAYBE if a AM unit needs to see the unit being fired upon that might work. Otherwise maybe they can't fire or at least a -1.

The only actual t2 reserve units people used were flyers

That is false. Aeldari players had quite a few good deep strike units that were used a lot even though they came on turn 2 or later. I have a hard time believing people have already forgotten the Warp Spiders. People also used Swooping Hawks, Scourges, and so on. Hell, there was a glory time when people played with Duke Sliscus just to deep strike stuff. None of that stuff was turn 1.

The turn 1 DS is mostly a Space Marine special ability which drop pods brought to the table.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Flyrants had to deep strike turn 1 so they could jump over screens and deal with artillery turn 2.

If you don't stop the guard artillery from firing as soon as possible, you lose the game.

I have no answer to guard right now, other than my own shooting, which pales in comparison.

Additionally, without deep-striking forward synapse beacons, I can't run across the board and fight them, because i'll lose a ton of bodies to morale.

I can start flyrants on the board, but again, going second? Good night moon.

I've submitted a bit to the FAQ stating that Guard Artillery should have a prerequisite for firing at targets they can't see.

Vox-Caster equipped squads have to have LOS to them. Right now, that's one of the better solutions to Guard artillery I can think of outside of making it so that they can make a bunch more shots but at a -2 to Hit.

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

I am so absolutely sick of every table being choked with imperial guard.

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

 Marmatag wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late.

Yes indeed, that's been my worry too. But we might be able to work around it by just shooting chaff to little red chunks T1, then DS'ing T2. Things like Stfs Agressors have hugely increased in importance now. A full squad of six will net you 34 dead guardsmen. If each agressor can shoot at a different squad, that makes 5.5 dead in each squad: with a leadership of 7, each squad is looking at 2 or 3 losses from morale. Then next turn the angels drop in and go to town. It could work, and for 222pts, it's a real bargain imo. Its one big weakness is losing initiative, so you only have around 62% chance of actually getting to use them in this manner.

Actually they buffed commissars so that won't work out the way you think. Their leadership will be higher, and hey have "almost ATSNKF."

My primary tool to eliminate screens - Dakka-gants with a Trygon delivery - is no longer possible on turn 1. I can clear screens on turn 2. Or, i start my gaunts on the board, and lose them. 8ppm for a model with a 6+ save and 3T. Yeah.

commisars only bump guardsmen up to ld8, which means if you take 5 casulties you'd still lose models on a roll of 4+, which then triggers the commissar's ability, if the IG player goes for the reroll he loses a model then still runs the risk of losing more models. So he'd either lose 5 models and pass morale, fail the first time, execute a guy and then pass for 6 models lost, or fail execute and then fail again for at least 7 models lost. in any scenario the guard player is losing at least half a squad, commisars help now but they're not the cure all they used to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

So what? You can spam infantry and scions, and scions can deep strike within 9". These are things that are already spammed like crazy.

I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I would prefer the -1 to hit.

Unless the Vox Caster model is within 24" of the target, then we have a fair deal. Otherwise you just park a few squads in the very back well out of range, and your artillery works as normal for a pittance.

If you want to make it be 24" of the target, then I want more units with access to Vox-Casters.

There's 4. Command Squads, Scions, Infantry, and Veterans.

So what? You can spam infantry and scions, and scions can deep strike within 9". These are things that are already spammed like crazy.

Okay, and...?

There's a reason these units are spammed--and it's not because Vox-Casters are amazing. Scions basically operate without Vox-Casters, period, because of the fact that they aren't going to be within Orders range and they are separate from the <Regiment> they're usually taken with. Add to it that Vox-Casters don't really do much for your Orders range and it becomes a "Why bother?" thing in many cases.

By making it so that Special and Heavy Weapon Squads gain access to Vox-Casters, it means those things will actually be (bear with me here!) possibly considered for fielding since they can then be given Orders from Officers who aren't sitting right there.

And realistically, Sentinels of both flavors should have something relating to Artillery since they've long been mentioned as having targeting equipment for artillery units to feed off of.

Martel732 wrote:
Not just that. I was using them to clear screen on turn 1 from DS. Now that's turn 2. Too late. If IG were properly costed, this change would be fine. But they dodged the costing issue. And released the Drukhari. 90 pt talos with 4++? Okay...

97 points for their cheapest loadout (Although you'll probably want to pay 98 for the two macro-scalpels, chainflails are garbage). Additionally, they have no method of special delivery, so they're stuck slogging up the table.

They're pretty comparable to a Screamer Killer, really. They trade raw damage output and access to a static -1 to hit for a 4++ and a bit of extra mobility. They also require a nearby Haemonculus in order to get T7.

Still pretty damn good against most lists.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

I did not know Talos were only 90 points base. Sheesh. But then again, my Spyders are 65 points and can bring scarabs back and heal vehicles, sooooo....Okay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

I know right?

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

 Fafnir wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

The Razorwing is finally good? My god man, it's the end of days!

Yeah, I haven't fought against Guards parking lot yet, but I imagine it's just ridiculous.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've never had a problem with the crap leadership because I don't rely on them sticking around. Just have more guardsmen, it doesn't matter if a few run, they're only there to protect the guns.

I personally think russ-tanks should be cheaper, except probably the Punishers. Russes are honestly pretty bad.

I'm also honestly surprised that there's still complaints about IG everywhere, because they haven't placed highly, like, at all. I haven't had difficulty at all fighting them with any of my armies.

The units that are on my list for "must kill on turn 1" basically boil down to Punisher tanks and Baneblades. Manticores and Basilisks are threatening, but not that threatening, and guardsmen are pretty easy to clear out over a couple of turns of concentrated fire if you wreck or suppress some of the guns that actually kill things. Baneblades are nuts though.

"Russes are honestly pretty bad."

They are. The exception is Punisher tanks, which are good, and Tank Commanders, which are adequate.

I've spelled this out before: A Leman Russ Tank outputs 2d6 shots at BS4+, S8, AP2, Dd3, direct fire. For about 10 points less, a Manticore outputs 2d6 shots at BS4+, S10, AP2, Dd3, indirect fire. Indirect fire is stronger than T8 and means the manticore doesn't ever need to move, which negates the only actual superior stat the russ-tank has. And, of course, going from S8 to S10 is situationally useful, though few of the T8 vehicles are really all that great.

Tank Commanders are passable because they're self-buffing and BS3+. Re-rolling shot output and hitting on 3's makes them viable at cost. Punishers are passable because they perform a task that there's nothing that's really good at.

Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
(Talos are) pretty damn good against most lists.

They're solid, but definitely not an auto-take, nor are they going to cause the meta to shift in any major direction. Ravagers and Razorwing Fighters are still the toppest of dogs in that book.

Although I'd argue that even those still pale in comparison to the new and improved Guard parking lot. They were already too good to begin with, but now that most armies have no way to properly intercept their gunlines anymore, it's going to get seriously messy.

The Razorwing is finally good? My god man, it's the end of days!

Yeah, I haven't fought against Guards parking lot yet, but I imagine it's just ridiculous.

It's not. I've done it quite a bit, with Guard, Sisters, Wolves, and now Custodians. Custodians have it hardest, with no efficient long-range antitank weapons and aren't super fast. Guard have it easiest, I have a Shadowsword to wreck their tanks and my own Manticore and Basilisks can play with theirs; tit-for-tat. Wolves did fine, but I can't outflank/jump pack wolf guard to get plasma and storm bolters up close anymore, so I'll have to think of a new plan. I'll also have to think of something new with Sisters, since I can't run 5 squads of Dominions in Immolators anymore, so there's a 40% reduction in melta/storm bolter crossing the board on turn 1.

The big deal with the new FAQ is it'll give the troopers time to spread out, thus driving my plasmaguns out of Rapid Fire range on their turn 2 arrival. Lascannon Longfangs or Predators can still assassinate a tank on turn 1, but they can't win a protracted gun duel with the heavy artillery, and the inability to bring in guys close on time and on target is going to make me revisit my lists before next game. With Sisters, dropping to running BSS cuts my special weapon density by 40%, and they can't get into range T1, so that hurts too. Its 40% less T1 firepower, and the late arriving firepower is also reduced 40% from it's potential, so that' really does sting.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

I don't honestly think so, at least, not nearly as much as it was to everyone else. All-scion armies aren't a frequent thing I've seen, and 5 man Scion squads are 3 PL. If you had a unit on the board before for each deep striking Scion (which you would have needed previously anyway), then you almost certainly have the PL requirement covered.

Far as not deep striking first turn? No one can do that now. Yeah, that kinda hurts Scions a bit, but they're in the army with the most long range firepower in the game. Scions might be down a bit, but IG made out like a bandit with the beta DS rule. I've spent the last year of my life cheerleading about how Guard aren't too powerful. I suspect that the beta is going to radically cause a power shift in favor of them.

Compare to the opposite extreme: GK basically got nothing out of the DS rule, and on top of it, they can't even counterweight their deep strikers with cheap units of infantry/acolytes anymore.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh I didn't know there was another kind of russ that wasn't a tank commander. Sorry.

Bare-bones Catachan Conquerors are very good for 155 points.
Cadian Russes are pretty good if you have Pask to give them Pound Them to Dust, and very good if you can leverage Overlapping Fields of Fire. I run them with Battlecannons and Plasma Sponsons.

 zedsdead wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Pretty sure that the Deep Strike nerf is a nerf to Scions, but what do I know?

tears wont be shed... they are still good

That's actually part of the deeper issue. Scions are so cheap you don't care if they're in reserves for one more turn. They drop and die. Simple as that.

Then Obliterators and Destroyers have enough range in their guns that it's only a slight hit to them. Melee WAS the most affected here, whether you want to admit it or not.