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Personally I think while a custodes is better, raven guard are much more skilled, custodes are built to be better in every way and receive the best training the imperium has, but that’s kinda the point of then, marines are not built to be anything other than a blunt killing machine so it’s a testament to the skill of the raven guard and others that they are able to adapt so well to so many different situations and tactics.

Just my opinion on it that’s all.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure the Custodes know the Imperial Palace and the Terra insanely well, and excel in operations in that environment, and are thus able to stop intruders of considerable skill. This does not translate being able to operate in unknown environment in similar capacity, that is where the Raven Guard would excel.

However, when that one environment is probably the single most difficult environment in the galaxy, it makes the other unknown ones look easy by comparison. Again, they might know Terra, but they're going up against other Custodes, who know the previous routes that other Custodes have tried, successfully and unsuccessfully. If they have any hope of success, they need to keep finding new loopholes in Terran security - aka, unknown environments.

I really don't buy that this is at all the same situation than being in completely new environment. And they're practising against people they know. It is more about mind games at that point, really, guessing what the other Custodes team would do. Stealth really is not an important niche for the Custodes. They don't have any stealth related units or rules in the game, which tells me that GW doesn't consider this to be a significant facet of their skill set.

If we're going by what they have in game, then apparently guardsmen with camo cloaks or carapace armour don't exist, every Blood Angel Captain has a jump pack and the Black Rage, and Inquisitors are incapable of wearing anything other than carapace armour or Terminator armour. That's simply not accurate.

Custodes don't use stealth in battle, but they are stealthy enough to infiltrate Terra. However, we do know that non-combat Custodes exist, and they often work as spymasters. Do we see these represented as units? No.

They're practising not just against other Custodes but the entire defences of Terra - regiments of guardsmen, Arbites, spaceships, even garrisons of Space Marines - it can't all be a case of mind games against their brethren.

Stealth isn't a niche for them, but they're still better than anything else we've seen, barring Assassins. If niches determined who was better by default, then surely a Guardsman who was a trained duellist would beat a Primarch like Lorgar, because he's not a specialist in duelling.
Just because the Raven Guard have more experience and specialise in it more than other Space Marines doesn't mean they have the sheer natural ability that Custodes do.

Sorry, I will not buy that 'Custodes are better at everything than Marines' line of reasoning, especially not than the existence of Primaris makes the natural ability cap between the two even smaller than before. Custodes are big and pretty toy soldiers who have no clue about real war.

 Crimson wrote:
Sorry, I will not buy that 'Custodes are better at everything than Marines' line of reasoning, especially not than the existence of Primaris makes the natural ability cap between the two even smaller than before. Custodes are big and pretty toy soldiers who have no clue about real war.

You got any sources to back up your average Space Marine being better than a Custodes? Or, more relevantly, an average Space Marine pulling off something on the scale of infiltrating Terra?

You say no clue about real war, but most of them are still in service from the Heresy, where they fought in the War of the Webway - a conflict which would have been near-impossible for any other Imperial force to take on, and they're trained in the art of assassination as part of their duty as a bodyguard - learning how to assassinate, so that they can prevent others doing the same.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You got any sources to back up your average Space Marine being better than a Custodes?

At some things they probably are. Their implants probably allow them to do some thingc Custodians cannot. Reverse is of course true as well. And of course marines train differently than the Custodes, and have different fields of expertise.

Or, more relevantly, an average Space Marine pulling off something on the scale of infiltrating Terra?

I'd really like an example of Custodes infiltrating someting other than their own home, guarded by their friends.

You say no clue about real war, but most of them are still in service from the Heresy, where they fought in the War of the Webway - a conflict which would have been near-impossible for any other Imperial force to take on, and they're trained in the art of assassination as part of their duty as a bodyguard - learning how to assassinate, so that they can prevent others doing the same.

Most of them, if any, are not that old. And who have thy ever assassinated?

Crimson your bias is showing. Custodes are mini-primarchs, no Space Marine can go toe to toe with one unless he's the protagonist or the villain of some history.

And I understand you, Custodes are the absolute gary-stu. I have read their Codex and I have an army of them, but it is what it is.

Theres nothing a Space Marine is better at than a Custodes barring probably a Librarian or a Techmarine because they are specialized marines in things a Custodes just doesn't do.

This was not about going to to toe*, but about stealth skills of stealth specialist Space Marine chapter and the Custodes. And there probably are some things Marines can do that the Custodes cannot, like eating people's brains to gain their memories...


* (Though I'm sure an experienced Space Marine could do that and have at least a chance of winning, just like a skilled normal human could win against a Space Marine.)

 Galas wrote:
Crimson your bias is showing. Custodes are mini-primarchs, no Space Marine can go toe to toe with one unless he's the protagonist or the villain of some history.

And I understand you, Custodes are the absolute gary-stu. I have read their Codex and I have an army of them, but it is what it is.

Theres nothing a Space Marine is better at than a Custodes barring probably a Librarian or a Techmarine because they are specialized marines in things a Custodes just doesn't do.

Fighting as a cohesive force.
Diplomacy
Actually doing their jobs for 10k years
Conquering worlds
Liberating worlds
Supporting imperial organisations
Taking the fight to inperiums enemies
Trying to stop vandire (joking)

There is plenty that MARINES are better at by design, custodes are an amazing fighting force but they suffer an exaggerated version of the same issue marines do, numbers, they may be better at stealth individually, but nothing I’ve seen is as good as some marine chapters at war, custodes are guards, bloody amazing ones.

In fairness Custodes did do their job it's just that their job was to lounge around doing nothing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Being 9 foot tall is not uncommon in 40k, especially with all the abhuman and gene-forged servants undoubtedly on Terra. A canny Custodes can blend in there without question, and their enhanced physical skills and intellect over Space Marines (read, Raven Guard) is another edge.

I doubt 9 foot tall are anything close to common. Space Marines, which are smaller than Custodes, are known to stand out in crowd fairly easily. While there might be numerous tall abhumen like Ogryns, It's doubtful they are even allowed to step foot on Terra, the holiest of all holy world. Plus, an Ogryn is significantly larger than a Custodes. Their traits are alos rather unique, impossible to confuse with some abhumen from low or high gravity world or giant servitors that could be used as dockers for example. If you want to hide in crowd in Terra, the best trick is to look exactly like your typical pilgrim or member of the Ecclesiarchy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Raven Guard are smaller, yes, but they're still giants compared to humans. At the heights that we're talking here, a Custodes being a foot taller is hardly an issue when a normal Space Marine is probably a foot or two taller than most people.
A young Raven Guard will not have the experience a Custodes has - in fact, most Custodes will have more experience than a regular Raven Guard Battle Brother anyway.

On that, we both agree. Raven Guards and Space Marines in general aren't made to be good spies and infiltrators. They stick out no matter where they are. They are large, heavy and smelly which aren't naturally good qualities for discretion. To me, the question Raven Guard vs Custodes is a question of which one of these two very missadapted for stealth faction is the better and in my opinion, it's the Raven Guard because they are the least missadapted of the two.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You say that a Ratling would probably be better - I still disagree. If it were the case that these Ratlings and Raven Guard were better at stealth and infiltration than Custodes, and Custodes consider infiltrating Terra a difficult feat (remember, only one Custodes to our knowledge has done it twice), then why don't the Custodes use Ratlings and Raven Guard to test the security of Terra? A ratling is good, but lacks the intelligence and conviction in their approach. They would be good at hiding from a human, but a Space Marine or dedicated search and sweep could probably pick them up. An average Raven Guard Space Marine is very good, much better than their Space Marine brethren, and can be near invisible to a human, despite their power armour and size. But, a Custodes can probably outwit them, and especially on Terra, there's only so much a Space Marine can do.

The answer is very simple. The Imperium is extraordinarly racist. They wouldn't let an abhumen, a thing they consider like garbage and only tolerate because they have a certain use, close to their holiest site. They are also probably extremely biased against them, underestimating them all the time, giving them traits they don't have. Abhumen are trash for the Imperium, others have been purged for the same or similar deviancy, they suffer from terrible discriminatin. No way they get to do anything important. No way they get to be anything else than slaves, servants or auxilaries in the Guard where they can die for our cause. The Imperium is a dogmatic madhouse. They don't do the best from a rational and logical point of view. They actually do pretty much the exact opposite and rely on dogma, superstition and traditions to make decision.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Otherwise, if average Raven Guard were that good (better than Custodes Blood Games good), then surely an exceptional infiltrator of a traitor legion (say, Emperor's Children, Night Lord or Alpha Legionnaire) during or after the Heresy could have got into Terra and assassinated the Emperor or other high ranking personnel. And considering that the "target" of the Custodes Blood Games for them to assassinate is usually the Emperor himself, if average Raven Guard were better than Custodes, then why couldn't an exceptional infiltrator from a traitor legion do it and end the Imperium there and then.

Logically, it makes sense for Custodes to be the best, as it is most consistent with the universe as we know it in 40k - the only things I can think better which are human would be the Assassins of the Assassinorum.

The defenses of the Palace are probably far too extansive for anything beside a highy postion traitor to get in there. Custodians are basically glorified door ornamentation. They are posted on every doorway in the palace, never move from their post and don't let anybody through. There job isn't to sniff out infiltrator, its to defend the place against a direct attack and filter those who are allowed to pass through or not and in the case of the door leading to the Emperor's Throne, that's the magos in charge of maintenance and that's it. Not even other Custodians can get in there. Sniffing out threat is probably more a job for the servo-skulls spying on every corridors, halls, air vents, etc. feeding thousands of monitors manned by Vannus temple assassins trained exclusively to watch over those feed and detect any abnormality. Then, there is the Inquisition hard at work to secure the palace and uncover any plot against it in top priority. There is probably psykers trained to detect hostile intention and use of witchcraft or psychic powers inside the palace. The palace has never been infiltrated by the forces of Chaos because it's futile to think they can do it. The only anway to murder the Emperor is to convince the master of the Custodian, one of those who guard the Emperor from inside the Golden Throne room during repairs or the Grand Fabricator and his assistent as they are the only ones who can have access to him. Could a suicide bomber explode on the step of the Palace or even one of the halls open to worshipers, probably. It might even be an event so banal it's not even worth mentionning. Since there are zones open to the public, infiltrating them isn't really difficult. I wouldn't count them as "successful infiltration" personnaly.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You got any sources to back up your average Space Marine being better than a Custodes?

At some things they probably are. Their implants probably allow them to do some thingc Custodians cannot. Reverse is of course true as well. And of course marines train differently than the Custodes, and have different fields of expertise.

Different fields of speciality, maybe, but there is simply not a facet where Space Marines are superior to Custodes, barring one aspect - teamwork.
Custodes are again, closer to PRIMARCHS than Space Marines. There may be a handful of Astartes naturally gifted enough to match or even beat a Custodes in an aspect, but the average Astartes, as the OP states, is never on a comparable level to an Astartes.

Furthermore, regarding implants, the Custodes do not have them. They're geneforged, induvidually, and is described as more advanced than the "comparatively crude" ones of the Astartes (Horus Heresy Book 7). Therefore, I think it logical that they would have better "implants" than the Astartes.

Or, more relevantly, an average Space Marine pulling off something on the scale of infiltrating Terra?

I'd really like an example of Custodes infiltrating someting other than their own home, guarded by their friends.

Their "home" is the most heavily guarded location in the galaxy, and their friends are:
A - not guarding all of Terra and the Sol System in general
B - having to demonstrate their own skills in countering said assassins. There's no use in testing Terra's defences and a Custodes' skill if you're not taking it seriously, and these are the primary reasons for the Blood Games in the first place. Why on EARTH would the Custodes take it easy on their brethren if they're testing Terra's defences?

Think about this logically. The Custodes will be trying to infiltrate against one of the most well-defended places in the galaxy, and the defenders know they're coming. The fact someone could pull it off once is a testament to their skill.

You say no clue about real war, but most of them are still in service from the Heresy, where they fought in the War of the Webway - a conflict which would have been near-impossible for any other Imperial force to take on, and they're trained in the art of assassination as part of their duty as a bodyguard - learning how to assassinate, so that they can prevent others doing the same.

Most of them, if any, are not that old. And who have thy ever assassinated?

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

The Ephoroi are a branch of the Custodes specifically DEDICATED to assassination, and were said to have commanded the Assassinorum during the Heresy.

Crimson wrote:This was not about going to to toe*, but about stealth skills of stealth specialist Space Marine chapter and the Custodes. And there probably are some things Marines can do that the Custodes cannot, like eating people's brains to gain their memories...


* (Though I'm sure an experienced Space Marine could do that and have at least a chance of winning, just like a skilled normal human could win against a Space Marine.)

An "experienced" Marine, not an average one like the OP asks for.

Again, the Raven Guard are good at stealth for Space Marines, which is essentially godlike for normal men, but Space Marines are not trained or simply biologically capable to the extent of Custodes.

There's some things that Custodes can do that Marines can't - such as infiltrate Terra.

Formosa wrote:

Theres nothing a Space Marine is better at than a Custodes barring probably a Librarian or a Techmarine because they are specialized marines in things a Custodes just doesn't do.

Fighting as a cohesive force. And? Custodes aren't supposed to do that, and they make up for their lack of teamwork skills by being expert solo fighters.
Diplomacy Custodes are all skilled politicians, and are frequently embroiled in Terran politicking.
Actually doing their jobs for 10k years Custodes have been doing their jobs for 10k years - that's why the Emperor is still alive.
Conquering worlds Can a single Space Marine do that too? Nope.
Liberating worlds Can a single Space Marine do that? If they could, then why couldn't a Custodes?
Supporting imperial organisations Custodes have arguably been in greater support due to their political influences on Terra and the HLOT, which Space Marines have little say in.
Taking the fight to inperiums enemies Again, not part of the job description. You're missing the point - we're comparing an INDIVIDUAL Space Marine to an INDIVIDUAL Custodian. Saying that "Space Marines go and do things" doesn't change the fact that your average Custodian is better than an average Space Marine in every encounter and situation.

There is plenty that MARINES are better at by design, custodes are an amazing fighting force but they suffer an exaggerated version of the same issue marines do, numbers, they may be better at stealth individually, but nothing I’ve seen is as good as some marine chapters at war, custodes are guards, bloody amazing ones.

And the OP is talking about, oh wait, an individual of both factions.

Who CARES if Space Marines might be better at war? This isn't talking about war. It's about infiltration and stealth, and so far, no Raven Guard has accomplished something like a Blood Game.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Being 9 foot tall is not uncommon in 40k, especially with all the abhuman and gene-forged servants undoubtedly on Terra. A canny Custodes can blend in there without question, and their enhanced physical skills and intellect over Space Marines (read, Raven Guard) is another edge.

I doubt 9 foot tall are anything close to common. Space Marines, which are smaller than Custodes, are known to stand out in crowd fairly easily. While there might be numerous tall abhumen like Ogryns, It's doubtful they are even allowed to step foot on Terra, the holiest of all holy world. Plus, an Ogryn is significantly larger than a Custodes. Their traits are alos rather unique, impossible to confuse with some abhumen from low or high gravity world or giant servitors that could be used as dockers for example. If you want to hide in crowd in Terra, the best trick is to look exactly like your typical pilgrim or member of the Ecclesiarchy.

Well, you say it's impossible that a Custodes could blend in, but they do.

What you expect in the real world doesn't seem to apply here. And it's the 40k logic that matters in a 40k comparison.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Raven Guard are smaller, yes, but they're still giants compared to humans. At the heights that we're talking here, a Custodes being a foot taller is hardly an issue when a normal Space Marine is probably a foot or two taller than most people.
A young Raven Guard will not have the experience a Custodes has - in fact, most Custodes will have more experience than a regular Raven Guard Battle Brother anyway.

On that, we both agree. Raven Guards and Space Marines in general aren't made to be good spies and infiltrators. They stick out no matter where they are. They are large, heavy and smelly which aren't naturally good qualities for discretion. To me, the question Raven Guard vs Custodes is a question of which one of these two very missadapted for stealth faction is the better and in my opinion, it's the Raven Guard because they are the least missadapted of the two.

Again, both apparently seem to be good infiltrators in 40k logic. And 40k logic seems to dictate that Custodes ARE capable of infiltrating Terra, and yet the Raven Guard have never demonstrated ability to do so.

I'm basing this off what I know in 40k. Not from what I expect from a realistic scenario.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You say that a Ratling would probably be better - I still disagree. If it were the case that these Ratlings and Raven Guard were better at stealth and infiltration than Custodes, and Custodes consider infiltrating Terra a difficult feat (remember, only one Custodes to our knowledge has done it twice), then why don't the Custodes use Ratlings and Raven Guard to test the security of Terra? A ratling is good, but lacks the intelligence and conviction in their approach. They would be good at hiding from a human, but a Space Marine or dedicated search and sweep could probably pick them up. An average Raven Guard Space Marine is very good, much better than their Space Marine brethren, and can be near invisible to a human, despite their power armour and size. But, a Custodes can probably outwit them, and especially on Terra, there's only so much a Space Marine can do.

The answer is very simple. The Imperium is extraordinarly racist. They wouldn't let an abhumen, a thing they consider like garbage and only tolerate because they have a certain use, close to their holiest site. They are also probably extremely biased against them, underestimating them all the time, giving them traits they don't have. Abhumen are trash for the Imperium, others have been purged for the same or similar deviancy, they suffer from terrible discriminatin. No way they get to do anything important. No way they get to be anything else than slaves, servants or auxilaries in the Guard where they can die for our cause. The Imperium is a dogmatic madhouse. They don't do the best from a rational and logical point of view. They actually do pretty much the exact opposite and rely on dogma, superstition and traditions to make decision.

The Imperium's racist to XENOS. Not to non-mutated humans. Sure, the abhumans ARE variations of the human form, but they're accepted and recognised, and their abilities are utilised and known about.
Why else would Ratlings be tolerated if the Imperium were THAT racist? Why else would Ogryns be awarded medals and actually loved and respected by Guard commanders and the men they fight with? Because the Imperium recognises them.

The Imperium may be dogmatic, but it's not stupid, not on Terra. Nothing about Terran security or the Custodes themselves gives any impression they'd underestimate a Ratling. And it is also widely known that Ratlings are cowardly, self-interested and ultimately only concerned with their own safety. Their fear and lack of control puts them below a Custodes, who can simply out-think and outperform other contenders.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Otherwise, if average Raven Guard were that good (better than Custodes Blood Games good), then surely an exceptional infiltrator of a traitor legion (say, Emperor's Children, Night Lord or Alpha Legionnaire) during or after the Heresy could have got into Terra and assassinated the Emperor or other high ranking personnel. And considering that the "target" of the Custodes Blood Games for them to assassinate is usually the Emperor himself, if average Raven Guard were better than Custodes, then why couldn't an exceptional infiltrator from a traitor legion do it and end the Imperium there and then.

Logically, it makes sense for Custodes to be the best, as it is most consistent with the universe as we know it in 40k - the only things I can think better which are human would be the Assassins of the Assassinorum.

The defenses of the Palace are probably far too extansive for anything beside a highy postion traitor to get in there. Custodians are basically glorified door ornamentation. They are posted on every doorway in the palace, never move from their post and don't let anybody through. There job isn't to sniff out infiltrator, its to defend the place against a direct attack and filter those who are allowed to pass through or not and in the case of the door leading to the Emperor's Throne, that's the magos in charge of maintenance and that's it. Not even other Custodians can get in there. Sniffing out threat is probably more a job for the servo-skulls spying on every corridors, halls, air vents, etc. feeding thousands of monitors manned by Vannus temple assassins trained exclusively to watch over those feed and detect any abnormality. Then, there is the Inquisition hard at work to secure the palace and uncover any plot against it in top priority. There is probably psykers trained to detect hostile intention and use of witchcraft or psychic powers inside the palace. The palace has never been infiltrated by the forces of Chaos because it's futile to think they can do it. The only anway to murder the Emperor is to convince the master of the Custodian, one of those who guard the Emperor from inside the Golden Throne room during repairs or the Grand Fabricator and his assistent as they are the only ones who can have access to him. Could a suicide bomber explode on the step of the Palace or even one of the halls open to worshipers, probably. It might even be an event so banal it's not even worth mentionning. Since there are zones open to the public, infiltrating them isn't really difficult. I wouldn't count them as "successful infiltration" personnaly.

And yet Custodes are able to get in and get into a position where they could kill their target - aka, the Emperor.

It's far more than just getting to a public area and calling that "infiltration". We're talking about a Custodes who can slip past all of the outer system defences, reach the planet, slip through the streets and crowds and buildings whilst being actively hunted for, get into the palace (under all the guard you mentioned above), and get into a position where he could kill the Emperor of Mankind.

You don't class that as "successful infiltration"?

Yeah, knowing the Imperial Palace well still do not translate being universally good at stealth. How the hell are the Custodians going to sneak on a jungle world, when they probably have never even seen a tree bigger than a potted plant? (Granted, there might be some quite large potted plants on Terra.) Raven Guard will have absolutely superior experience about fighting and using stealth in variety of environments in real battlefield conditions.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You got any sources to back up your average Space Marine being better than a Custodes?

At some things they probably are. Their implants probably allow them to do some thingc Custodians cannot. Reverse is of course true as well. And of course marines train differently than the Custodes, and have different fields of expertise.

Different fields of speciality, maybe, but there is simply not a facet where Space Marines are superior to Custodes, barring one aspect - teamwork.
Custodes are again, closer to PRIMARCHS than Space Marines. There may be a handful of Astartes naturally gifted enough to match or even beat a Custodes in an aspect, but the average Astartes, as the OP states, is never on a comparable level to an Astartes.

Furthermore, regarding implants, the Custodes do not have them. They're geneforged, induvidually, and is described as more advanced than the "comparatively crude" ones of the Astartes (Horus Heresy Book 7). Therefore, I think it logical that they would have better "implants" than the Astartes.

Or, more relevantly, an average Space Marine pulling off something on the scale of infiltrating Terra?

I'd really like an example of Custodes infiltrating someting other than their own home, guarded by their friends.

Their "home" is the most heavily guarded location in the galaxy, and their friends are:
A - not guarding all of Terra and the Sol System in general
B - having to demonstrate their own skills in countering said assassins. There's no use in testing Terra's defences and a Custodes' skill if you're not taking it seriously, and these are the primary reasons for the Blood Games in the first place. Why on EARTH would the Custodes take it easy on their brethren if they're testing Terra's defences?

Think about this logically. The Custodes will be trying to infiltrate against one of the most well-defended places in the galaxy, and the defenders know they're coming. The fact someone could pull it off once is a testament to their skill.

You say no clue about real war, but most of them are still in service from the Heresy, where they fought in the War of the Webway - a conflict which would have been near-impossible for any other Imperial force to take on, and they're trained in the art of assassination as part of their duty as a bodyguard - learning how to assassinate, so that they can prevent others doing the same.

Most of them, if any, are not that old. And who have thy ever assassinated?

Why wouldn't they be that old? As you seem to think, they don't go out and do any fighting themselves, it's been outright said they don't biologically age, so why wouldn't most of them still be in service after the Heresy?

The Ephoroi are a branch of the Custodes specifically DEDICATED to assassination, and were said to have commanded the Assassinorum during the Heresy.

Crimson wrote:This was not about going to to toe*, but about stealth skills of stealth specialist Space Marine chapter and the Custodes. And there probably are some things Marines can do that the Custodes cannot, like eating people's brains to gain their memories...


* (Though I'm sure an experienced Space Marine could do that and have at least a chance of winning, just like a skilled normal human could win against a Space Marine.)

An "experienced" Marine, not an average one like the OP asks for.

Again, the Raven Guard are good at stealth for Space Marines, which is essentially godlike for normal men, but Space Marines are not trained or simply biologically capable to the extent of Custodes.

There's some things that Custodes can do that Marines can't - such as infiltrate Terra.

Formosa wrote:

Theres nothing a Space Marine is better at than a Custodes barring probably a Librarian or a Techmarine because they are specialized marines in things a Custodes just doesn't do.

Fighting as a cohesive force. And? Custodes aren't supposed to do that, and they make up for their lack of teamwork skills by being expert solo fighters.
Diplomacy Custodes are all skilled politicians, and are frequently embroiled in Terran politicking.
Actually doing their jobs for 10k years Custodes have been doing their jobs for 10k years - that's why the Emperor is still alive.
Conquering worlds Can a single Space Marine do that too? Nope.
Liberating worlds Can a single Space Marine do that? If they could, then why couldn't a Custodes?
Supporting imperial organisations Custodes have arguably been in greater support due to their political influences on Terra and the HLOT, which Space Marines have little say in.
Taking the fight to inperiums enemies Again, not part of the job description. You're missing the point - we're comparing an INDIVIDUAL Space Marine to an INDIVIDUAL Custodian. Saying that "Space Marines go and do things" doesn't change the fact that your average Custodian is better than an average Space Marine in every encounter and situation.

There is plenty that MARINES are better at by design, custodes are an amazing fighting force but they suffer an exaggerated version of the same issue marines do, numbers, they may be better at stealth individually, but nothing I’ve seen is as good as some marine chapters at war, custodes are guards, bloody amazing ones.

And the OP is talking about, oh wait, an individual of both factions.

Who CARES if Space Marines might be better at war? This isn't talking about war. It's about infiltration and stealth, and so far, no Raven Guard has accomplished something like a Blood Game.

I care that they are better at war, as that’s what they are designed for, I also care that custodes are better fighters, because that’s what they are designed for, otherwise this might as well be “who is better, a guardman or a chapter master” they are very different things made for very different reasons and excel at what they were made for.

A custodes beats pretty much any marine (bar the outliers) hands down at nearly everything, but not at the things marines were made for.

Crimson wrote:Yeah, knowing the Imperial Palace well still do not translate being universally good at stealth. How the hell are the Custodians going to sneak on a jungle world, when they probably have never even seen a tree bigger than a potted plant? (Granted, there might be some quite large potted plants on Terra.) Raven Guard will have absolutely superior experience about fighting and using stealth in variety of environments in real battlefield conditions.

I'm still waiting on the Raven Guard having done something NEARLY like infiltrating Terra.

I'm pretty sure the Custodes know what jungles are. I'm also pretty sure they've fought in them (note, most current Custodes were alive during the Heresy).

Again, as I'll say again: you're comparing a mountain climber who has climbed all over the world to a mountain climber who has climbed the single most difficult mountain in the world. Unless I can see the Raven Guard pull off something like the Blood Games, my mind is made up.

Formosa wrote:I care that they are better at war, as that’s what they are designed for, I also care that custodes are better fighters, because that’s what they are designed for, otherwise this might as well be “who is better, a guardman or a chapter master” they are very different things made for very different reasons and excel at what they were made for.

A custodes beats pretty much any marine (bar the outliers) hands down at nearly everything, but not at the things marines were made for.

My apologies, but what does Marines being better at war have to do with infiltrating?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Crimson wrote:Yeah, knowing the Imperial Palace well still do not translate being universally good at stealth. How the hell are the Custodians going to sneak on a jungle world, when they probably have never even seen a tree bigger than a potted plant? (Granted, there might be some quite large potted plants on Terra.) Raven Guard will have absolutely superior experience about fighting and using stealth in variety of environments in real battlefield conditions.

I'm still waiting on the Raven Guard having done something NEARLY like infiltrating Terra.

I'm pretty sure the Custodes know what jungles are. I'm also pretty sure they've fought in them (note, most current Custodes were alive during the Heresy).

Again, as I'll say again: you're comparing a mountain climber who has climbed all over the world to a mountain climber who has climbed the single most difficult mountain in the world. Unless I can see the Raven Guard pull off something like the Blood Games, my mind is made up.

Formosa wrote:I care that they are better at war, as that’s what they are designed for, I also care that custodes are better fighters, because that’s what they are designed for, otherwise this might as well be “who is better, a guardman or a chapter master” they are very different things made for very different reasons and excel at what they were made for.

A custodes beats pretty much any marine (bar the outliers) hands down at nearly everything, but not at the things marines were made for.

My apologies, but what does Marines being better at war have to do with infiltrating?

I said a couple of posts ago, but it simply boiled down to me having the opinion that marines being able to do stealth at all is very impressive , arguably more impressive that a custodes that was designed with that in mind, the next post was me just pointing that that custodes are not better than marines at everything, individually sure, but marines were not made to fight alone, so any comparison is Inherently flawed, it’s just my opinion thought.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My apologies, but what does Marines being better at war have to do with infiltrating?

I said a couple of posts ago, but it simply boiled down to me having the opinion that marines being able to do stealth at all is very impressive , arguably more impressive that a custodes that was designed with that in mind, the next post was me just pointing that that custodes are not better than marines at everything, individually sure, but marines were not made to fight alone, so any comparison is Inherently flawed, it’s just my opinion thought.

Ah, I understand, fair point.
Again, what I deem of the Custodes is that they are, individually, superior in every way. It's simply the fact that the Space Marines are more numerous and are built to fight wars, unlike Custodes who are the speartip (even more so than the Space Marines being the speartip of a normal force).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My apologies, but what does Marines being better at war have to do with infiltrating?

I said a couple of posts ago, but it simply boiled down to me having the opinion that marines being able to do stealth at all is very impressive , arguably more impressive that a custodes that was designed with that in mind, the next post was me just pointing that that custodes are not better than marines at everything, individually sure, but marines were not made to fight alone, so any comparison is Inherently flawed, it’s just my opinion thought.

Ah, I understand, fair point.
Again, what I deem of the Custodes is that they are, individually, superior in every way. It's simply the fact that the Space Marines are more numerous and are built to fight wars, unlike Custodes who are the speartip (even more so than the Space Marines being the speartip of a normal force).

Yeah that’s pretty much how I see it too dude, think it was first heretic where the marines were watching them fight and noticed that they fight alone, in groups, can’t quite remember the next part but didn’t he basically think that while custodes would rip marines apart, marines would win the war because of their brotherhood?

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My apologies, but what does Marines being better at war have to do with infiltrating?

I said a couple of posts ago, but it simply boiled down to me having the opinion that marines being able to do stealth at all is very impressive , arguably more impressive that a custodes that was designed with that in mind, the next post was me just pointing that that custodes are not better than marines at everything, individually sure, but marines were not made to fight alone, so any comparison is Inherently flawed, it’s just my opinion thought.

Ah, I understand, fair point.
Again, what I deem of the Custodes is that they are, individually, superior in every way. It's simply the fact that the Space Marines are more numerous and are built to fight wars, unlike Custodes who are the speartip (even more so than the Space Marines being the speartip of a normal force).

Yeah that’s pretty much how I see it too dude, think it was first heretic where the marines were watching them fight and noticed that they fight alone, in groups, can’t quite remember the next part but didn’t he basically think that while custodes would rip marines apart, marines would win the war because of their brotherhood?

Something about comparing lions to wolves. The Custodes were the lions, solo hunters and fierce, but the Space Marines were the wolves, pack hunters and brothers in taking down their prey.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


What you expect in the real world doesn't seem to apply here. And it's the 40k logic that matters in a 40k comparison.

Which was my point in the first place. Sometimes GW tries too hard and breaks my suspention of disbelief too easily and to readily. Sometimes, 40K is incredibly stupid and juvenile and I don't enjoy that all that much.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm basing this off what I know in 40k. Not from what I expect from a realistic scenario.

In that case, you are basing yourself on insufficient information. In a scenario like who is better at stealth between Raven Guard and Custodes, we need to extrapolate because there has never been any story where the two could be compared. There isn't even a story about Chaos agents trying to infiltrate the Imperial Palace to my knowledge. Neither is there of any xenos species attempting to do the same. It's hard to compare or even assess the quality of the Custodian with so little thing to compare them too.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Imperium's racist to XENOS. Not to non-mutated humans. Sure, the abhumans ARE variations of the human form, but they're accepted and recognised, and their abilities are utilised and known about. Why else would Ratlings be tolerated if the Imperium were THAT racist? Why else would Ogryns be awarded medals and actually loved and respected by Guard commanders and the men they fight with? Because the Imperium recognises them. The Imperium may be dogmatic, but it's not stupid, not on Terra. Nothing about Terran security or the Custodes themselves gives any impression they'd underestimate a Ratling. And it is also widely known that Ratlings are cowardly, self-interested and ultimately only concerned with their own safety. Their fear and lack of control puts them below a Custodes, who can simply out-think and outperform other contenders.

The Imperium is massively racist toward mutants too. Ever heard of the term "mutant purge" or "pogrom" in 40K fiction? I certainly did. Abhhuman aren't respected or treated nearly as equal compared to normal humen. There is no ratling priests or Ogryn Commissars; no abhumen saint or even a time when an abhumen could give direct orders to a humen. There is no such thing as an abhumen general. They are second class citizen who live in fear of being purged or killed in a pogrom when things go wrong on a planet. The Imperium has clearly been described as intolerant of abhumen which it consider as second class citizens.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It's far more than just getting to a public area and calling that "infiltration". We're talking about a Custodes who can slip past all of the outer system defences, reach the planet, slip through the streets and crowds and buildings whilst being actively hunted for, get into the palace (under all the guard you mentioned above), and get into a position where he could kill the Emperor of Mankind.

You don't class that as "successful infiltration"?

If such is the case, I would recommand killing all Custodes and replacing them with dudes who can actually see. How can a nine foot tall giant pass trhough an empty corridor where there is nothing to hide, avoid detection from all servo-skulls and cameras filming it to pass in front of his two collegues who bar the doors and will let no one in or out without the proper authorisations and confirmation. You can be a God and invisible if you want, you will not open the door without them knowing it unless they are brain dead or asleep and even then, wouldn't their armors and vital be monitored by their commander at all time to see they are still at their post and fully operationnal. Clearly, this peice of fluff can be added to the garbage pile of GW . Sounds badass and cool for 30 seconds, but think a bit about it and it gets so stupid.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


What you expect in the real world doesn't seem to apply here. And it's the 40k logic that matters in a 40k comparison.

Which was my point in the first place. Sometimes GW tries too hard and breaks my suspention of disbelief too easily and to readily. Sometimes, 40K is incredibly stupid and juvenile and I don't enjoy that all that much.

That sill doesn't change the fact that in 40k, the Custodes are able to do it.

If you enjoy it or not isn't important, compared to knowing they they can.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm basing this off what I know in 40k. Not from what I expect from a realistic scenario.

In that case, you are basing yourself on insufficient information. In a scenario like who is better at stealth between Raven Guard and Custodes, we need to extrapolate because there has never been any story where the two could be compared. There isn't even a story about Chaos agents trying to infiltrate the Imperial Palace to my knowledge. Neither is there of any xenos species attempting to do the same. It's hard to compare or even assess the quality of the Custodian with so little thing to compare them too.

There hasn't ever been a 1:1 comparison, this is true. However, we can compare what we've seen them do, and nothing the Raven Guard have done has come next to infiltrating Terra. Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them. We have had a xenos case - Harlequins during the War of the Beast. They got to the main door, if I'm not mistaken. Custodes can reach the Emperor himself.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Imperium's racist to XENOS. Not to non-mutated humans. Sure, the abhumans ARE variations of the human form, but they're accepted and recognised, and their abilities are utilised and known about. Why else would Ratlings be tolerated if the Imperium were THAT racist? Why else would Ogryns be awarded medals and actually loved and respected by Guard commanders and the men they fight with? Because the Imperium recognises them. The Imperium may be dogmatic, but it's not stupid, not on Terra. Nothing about Terran security or the Custodes themselves gives any impression they'd underestimate a Ratling. And it is also widely known that Ratlings are cowardly, self-interested and ultimately only concerned with their own safety. Their fear and lack of control puts them below a Custodes, who can simply out-think and outperform other contenders.

The Imperium is massively racist toward mutants too. Ever heard of the term "mutant purge" or "pogrom" in 40K fiction? I certainly did. Abhhuman aren't respected or treated nearly as equal compared to normal humen. There is no ratling priests or Ogryn Commissars; no abhumen saint or even a time when an abhumen could give direct orders to a humen. There is no such thing as an abhumen general. They are second class citizen who live in fear of being purged or killed in a pogrom when things go wrong on a planet. The Imperium has clearly been described as intolerant of abhumen which it consider as second class citizens.

Racist, but not "massively". If it were massively, then they wouldn't be permitted to serve in the Astra Militarum, would they?

There's a distrust, but in many cases, this is ignored by the soldiers who serve with the abhumans. In fact, the odds are that these pogroms are religious "distractions" - there isn't an all-pervasive fear of these sanctioned abhumans, but if the populace is whipped into a religious frenzy, they could be at risk. Again, the abhumans are certainly kept separate from normal citizens, so there is a degree of "second class citizen" here, but it's not out of extreme racism - more out of convenience for all parties, and being able to utilize the abhumans' talents more effectively - and after all, isn't the Imperium all about "efficiency" over their civil liberties?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It's far more than just getting to a public area and calling that "infiltration". We're talking about a Custodes who can slip past all of the outer system defences, reach the planet, slip through the streets and crowds and buildings whilst being actively hunted for, get into the palace (under all the guard you mentioned above), and get into a position where he could kill the Emperor of Mankind.

You don't class that as "successful infiltration"?

If such is the case, I would recommand killing all Custodes and replacing them with dudes who can actually see. How can a nine foot tall giant pass trhough an empty corridor where there is nothing to hide, avoid detection from all servo-skulls and cameras filming it to pass in front of his two collegues who bar the doors and will let no one in or out without the proper authorisations and confirmation. You can be a God and invisible if you want, you will not open the door without them knowing it unless they are brain dead or asleep and even then, wouldn't their armors and vital be monitored by their commander at all time to see they are still at their post and fully operationnal. Clearly, this peice of fluff can be added to the garbage pile of GW . Sounds badass and cool for 30 seconds, but think a bit about it and it gets so stupid.

And? Who cares if it's realistic? GW say that the Custodes can do it, therefore they can. Logic is not important.

You can think it's stupid all you like. It's canon.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them.

Just to restate. The Alpha Legion did infiltrate the Imperial Palace. At the height of the Horus Heresy. When Dorn himself commanded the defense of Terra.

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them.

Just to restate. The Alpha Legion did infiltrate the Imperial Palace. At the height of the Horus Heresy. When Dorn himself commanded the defense of Terra.

I thought they only managed to reach Pluto? Am I missing something somewhere - do you have a source for me?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them.

Just to restate. The Alpha Legion did infiltrate the Imperial Palace. At the height of the Horus Heresy. When Dorn himself commanded the defense of Terra.

I thought they only managed to reach Pluto? Am I missing something somewhere - do you have a source for me?

It's on the wiki, I can't confirm, but I think it's from Praetorian of Dorn.

To be clear this doesn't mean the whole legion got there. Merely that the Alpha Legion and/or people that were their operatives infiltrated the palace.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Activating assets that had been dormant and hidden on Terra for several decades, the Alpha Legion would eventually succeed where all other had failed before, infiltrating several agents within the Imperial Palace and especially the Investiary, where great statues had been erected to commemorate the Great Crusade's greatest generals -- the Primarchs of the twenty Legions. Two plinths had stood empty for a long time, the statues adorning them destroyed when their respective owners were cast to oblivion and their history erased -- the Lost Primarchs, but the nine statues of those Primarchs having turned against the Emperor had merely been covered up. This was to be the Alpha Legion's target. Infiltrated Legionaries succeeded into penetrating into the Investiary and destroyed all the statues except two of them -- those of Alpharius and Rogal Dorn. Intended as both a challenge and a message, this feat was deliberately kept secret from the other organisations within the Imperial Palace, even the Regent of Terra, Malcador the Sigilite, and the Emperor's own bodyguards, the Legio Custodes, were forbidden to enter the Investiary and witness the shaming of the Imperial Fists."

That's whats on there. I would have to buy the book to confirm this being mentioned.

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them.

Just to restate. The Alpha Legion did infiltrate the Imperial Palace. At the height of the Horus Heresy. When Dorn himself commanded the defense of Terra.

I thought they only managed to reach Pluto? Am I missing something somewhere - do you have a source for me?

It's on the wiki, I can't confirm, but I think it's from Praetorian of Dorn.

To be clear this doesn't mean the whole legion got there. Merely that the Alpha Legion and/or people that were their operatives infiltrated the palace.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Activating assets that had been dormant and hidden on Terra for several decades, the Alpha Legion would eventually succeed where all other had failed before, infiltrating several agents within the Imperial Palace and especially the Investiary, where great statues had been erected to commemorate the Great Crusade's greatest generals -- the Primarchs of the twenty Legions. Two plinths had stood empty for a long time, the statues adorning them destroyed when their respective owners were cast to oblivion and their history erased -- the Lost Primarchs, but the nine statues of those Primarchs having turned against the Emperor had merely been covered up. This was to be the Alpha Legion's target. Infiltrated Legionaries succeeded into penetrating into the Investiary and destroyed all the statues except two of them -- those of Alpharius and Rogal Dorn. Intended as both a challenge and a message, this feat was deliberately kept secret from the other organisations within the Imperial Palace, even the Regent of Terra, Malcador the Sigilite, and the Emperor's own bodyguards, the Legio Custodes, were forbidden to enter the Investiary and witness the shaming of the Imperial Fists."

That's whats on there. I would have to buy the book to confirm this being mentioned.

Just read it, yes, Silonius/Alpharius infiltrates Terra - however, this is done a decent deal in advance, and doesn't get close to the Emperor himself: their goal is to blow up a few statues. Not to mention it is an exceptionally talented Alpha Legionnaire, who

So, yes, it has been done, and I must give the Alpha Legion credit for it, but it was not a feat an "average" Alpha Legionnaire could pull off, and didn't actually come close to the Emperor, unlike the Blood Games.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chaos has never done it, presumably because it would be suicidal for them.

Just to restate. The Alpha Legion did infiltrate the Imperial Palace. At the height of the Horus Heresy. When Dorn himself commanded the defense of Terra.

I thought they only managed to reach Pluto? Am I missing something somewhere - do you have a source for me?

It's on the wiki, I can't confirm, but I think it's from Praetorian of Dorn.

To be clear this doesn't mean the whole legion got there. Merely that the Alpha Legion and/or people that were their operatives infiltrated the palace.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Activating assets that had been dormant and hidden on Terra for several decades, the Alpha Legion would eventually succeed where all other had failed before, infiltrating several agents within the Imperial Palace and especially the Investiary, where great statues had been erected to commemorate the Great Crusade's greatest generals -- the Primarchs of the twenty Legions. Two plinths had stood empty for a long time, the statues adorning them destroyed when their respective owners were cast to oblivion and their history erased -- the Lost Primarchs, but the nine statues of those Primarchs having turned against the Emperor had merely been covered up. This was to be the Alpha Legion's target. Infiltrated Legionaries succeeded into penetrating into the Investiary and destroyed all the statues except two of them -- those of Alpharius and Rogal Dorn. Intended as both a challenge and a message, this feat was deliberately kept secret from the other organisations within the Imperial Palace, even the Regent of Terra, Malcador the Sigilite, and the Emperor's own bodyguards, the Legio Custodes, were forbidden to enter the Investiary and witness the shaming of the Imperial Fists."

That's whats on there. I would have to buy the book to confirm this being mentioned.

Just read it, yes, Silonius/Alpharius infiltrates Terra - however, this is done a decent deal in advance, and doesn't get close to the Emperor himself: their goal is to blow up a few statues. Not to mention it is an exceptionally talented Alpha Legionnaire, who

Spoiler:

believes they are Alpharius, the Primarch.

So, yes, it has been done, and I must give the Alpha Legion credit for it, but it was not a feat an "average" Alpha Legionnaire could pull off, and didn't actually come close to the Emperor, unlike the Blood Games.

Well to be fair their goal wasn't to reach the Emperor so we will unfortunately never know how far they could have gone. Plus we don't really know what an average Alpha Legionnaire is like unfortunately. However I will add that you say that the Blood Games are hard and often failed by Custodes with only Trajenn being able to do it twice. So we don't know for sure if the 'Average' Custodes will get through the Blood Games either. (Not arguing just speculating at this point.)

That's a fair and reasonable point

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You can think it's stupid all you like. It's canon.

There is no such thing as canon in 40K remember. There is only lies, propaganda and legends with dashes of truth in between. All that we read about 40K is potentially open to interpretation. Thus the stories of Custodes being expert infiltrators might actually just be legends or propaganda, lies told by the Custodes themselves to make people believe they are the hottest gak. If it's too stupid to be real or even believable despite a massive amount of suspention of disbelief within the universe, maybe, just maybe, it's one of these instense where the fluff doesn't tell us an actual reality or fact, but a legend, a story and piece of propaganda. I say, the Custodes are gak at infiltrating their palace. They are made to be guardiens not assassins. The two function require radically and sometime mutually exclusive skills. The legends about them being experts at politics and infiltration only serve as propaganda to dissuade people from attempting to foil them and give hope to the little people about the fact there is no chance in hell that soemone could murder the Emperor. I think it's further proven by the fact that according to just as unreliable sources, the Custodes were incapable of stopping the rise to power of Vandire, reduce his influence as he was clearly shown mad and kill him during the civil war. To me, there is only two option possible, this is a massive plot hole OR it's actually just propaganda. Is it above the Imperium to tell reassuring lies to its uneducated population?

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You can think it's stupid all you like. It's canon.

There is no such thing as canon in 40K remember. There is only lies, propaganda and legends with dashes of truth in between. All that we read about 40K is potentially open to interpretation. Thus the stories of Custodes being expert infiltrators might actually just be legends or propaganda, lies told by the Custodes themselves to make people believe they are the hottest gak. If it's too stupid to be real or even believable despite a massive amount of suspention of disbelief within the universe, maybe, just maybe, it's one of these instense where the fluff doesn't tell us an actual reality or fact, but a legend, a story and piece of propaganda. I say, the Custodes are gak at infiltrating their palace. They are made to be guardiens not assassins. The two function require radically and sometime mutually exclusive skills. The legends about them being experts at politics and infiltration only serve as propaganda to dissuade people from attempting to foil them and give hope to the little people about the fact there is no chance in hell that soemone could murder the Emperor. I think it's further proven by the fact that according to just as unreliable sources, the Custodes were incapable of stopping the rise to power of Vandire, reduce his influence as he was clearly shown mad and kill him during the civil war. To me, there is only two option possible, this is a massive plot hole OR it's actually just propaganda. Is it above the Imperium to tell reassuring lies to its uneducated population?

Weeeelll, clearly there's some level of canon that exists, otherwise you could say that the whole gathering storm event never happened and Guilliman's resurrection never occurred, that its all imperial propaganda (even though its clear that Cadia is destroyed at this point). It just seems like it doesn't jive your own personal head canon so you try to justify why you think its impossible that Raven Guard are outdone in terms of stealth by Custodes.

 Grimskul wrote:
Weeeelll, clearly there's some level of canon that exists, otherwise you could say that the whole gathering storm event never happened and Guilliman's resurrection never occurred, that its all imperial propaganda (even though its clear that Cadia is destroyed at this point). It just seems like it doesn't jive your own personal head canon so you try to justify why you think its impossible that Raven Guard are outdone in terms of stealth by Custodes.

Not really, all of this could just be a legendary version of an actual event within the universe that doesn't count gods and monsters, just trillions of dead people. That's how 40K works. We are playing the legends and stories of the 41st millenium, not the 41st history itself.