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I think there is a thematic link between a number of the traitors, and that link is that they're all consumed by their own weaknesses - and crucially, they don't see a way out of it, so they dig themselves deeper and deeper. So to that extent, I'm not sure any of them spare much thought for each other at all, other than in the usual sense of inane superiority where they just convince themselves they're better than the next guy.

Horus does reflect in one of the short stories that he's basically got second pick of the team. He hasn't, perhaps, noticed that he's being manipulated by the Chaos gods - or maybe like Perturabo he's basically spiralled down into a pit of despair by the end of it, where he knows everything's gone belly up but there's no turning back now.

Angron is a weird one - it's shown in Betrayer that, internally, Angron never believed in the Crusade or the Emperor - he belives he hates all tyrants (but not in a very sophisticated sense - not enough, for example, to just burn the colours and go blackshield), but finds Horus to be marginally less irritating than the Emperor so he puts up with Horus.

In Betrayer, we see that Lorgar knew that he was seen as the stunted wimp by everyone else, and part of his quest to be taken seriously involves "saving" Angron - but he also does genuinely seem to care about his brothers - at least in the sense where a religious fanatic might really care that they're saving the souls of heathens by tormeting their physical bodies to death. Sort of broadly comparable to Magnus too, in a sense of "well, if dad can do it so can I".

Mortarion is in that same pit of self loathing that Curze and Perturabo are in - he believes he hates psykers and daemons and gods and all that, ostensibly because he has daddy issues from Barbarus, but then develops his psychic lore, cuts deals with daemons, and goes all in on the Nurgle thing eventually.

Curze is sort of in the same boat as Angron to an extent - he's also not a true believe in the Emperor and his vision, but - I think like Lorgar - there was a time when he DID try. And, like Angron, he's not actually all that consistent with lining up his actions and his motivations. Curze despises (or thinks he does) lawbreakers and injustice, and then essentially turns a blind eye when it turns out his legion is just full of scum.

Perturabo is, as of Angel Exterminatus, shown to be someone who wanted to be a creator, but then ground his own psyche into that of a destroyer because that's what the Emperor wanted him to be - and it was also what his Olympian adoptive father wanted, too. Through the years of the Crusade, and during the burning of Olympia, we see him conclude that the thing he sacrificed his own better self for - the Emperor's vision, again - may not have been worth it either. But, like the rest, he's too far gone. Perturabo, the boy who wanted to build grand public works, shaped himself against his own desires to be what he thought he needed to be, and then found himself unappreciated for it.

Magnus, of course, did nothing wrong. Or at least, he didn't do anything worse than the Emperor did. In some ways, he's similar to Perturabo, except he didn't really give up his dreams during the Crusade - and then he got punished for not doing so, and it was during that whole debacle that I think he wound up reducing himself to a vessel of Tzeentch. If Perturabo is a son who's never received affirmation from his father despite doing everything he's supposed to, Magnus is the son who got punished for doing as his father did, and not as he said.

I don't think any of us can really tell with Alpharius, and in any case his portrayals basically boil down to a meme that's just the phrase "just as planned" that loops forever and loses all meaning.

In light of all that, Fulgrim is kind of refreshing, really. Sure, in his eponymous novel, his moment of falling boiled down to "a wizard did it" but after that, well, he fell wholesale. No existential angst, no shattered ambitions, no bitter sentiment - or not anymore, anyway. The Palatine Phoenix novella shows us what he was like before the fall, but afterwards? No hint of that man who dreamed himself the architect of a better tomorrow remains. Or is that he's desperately seeking the next great high so that he never has to think about what he once aspired to?

Given all of that, I doubt any of them really care about any of their brothers - and even if they did, they're too busy preening about themselves to respond to any inquiries of concern with anything other than a fight response.

I could do with some input from someone who knows more Heresy than I do. Lorgar is seen by the others as kind of a wimp and he wants to change that. But isn't him being a wimp pretty much on they money? He seems worse than all the others at pretty much everything.

pm713 wrote:
I could do with some input from someone who knows more Heresy than I do. Lorgar is seen by the others as kind of a wimp and he wants to change that. But isn't him being a wimp pretty much on they money? He seems worse than all the others at pretty much everything.

Prior to the Heresy that is certainly true. The Word Bearers had a lower tally of victories than most other Legions because they tended to hang around and put a lot of effort into establishing the worship of the Emperor rather than moving on to the next target. Lorgar does not seem to have been a noted fight, builder, strategist or statesman like his brothers. He seemed like an unspecialised Primarch but without Guilliman's efficiency. He was also a psyker but never really utilised his powers before his fall.

By the outbreak of the Heresy, all that has changed. Shortly after Istvaan, Horus puts his hand on Lorgar's shoulder in an overly friendly big-brother way and Lorgar psychically forces Horus to get his mitts off him (much to Horus' surprise and annoyance). One theory popular in fanon is that Lorgar's power levels are linked to his faith in his actions. During the GC, he was trying to worship the Emperor and getting rejected which left him something of a weakling. By the Heresy, he has committed to Chaos and no longer has any doubts. His last flicker of hesitation was when he faced Corax at Istvaan, that was the end of the old Lorgar pretty much. After that, his faith is certain and his powers seem to grow as a result.

pm713 wrote:
I could do with some input from someone who knows more Heresy than I do. Lorgar is seen by the others as kind of a wimp and he wants to change that. But isn't him being a wimp pretty much on they money? He seems worse than all the others at pretty much everything.

along with what Karhedron has said, I think Lorgar's strength was in the thing his brothers saw as part of his wimpyness. He was the greatest evangelist of them all, he inspired fanaticism, it was during the great crusade while being the wimp that he created the foundations for the Ecclesiarchy and the religion that became the core and driving force of the Imperium for the next 10,000 years. the next most influential primarch in this fashion was Guiliman with the codex...which is only for those marines who are into that sort of thing.

but this isn't a trait recognized as valuable by his brothers, something he shares with Magnus (and there are certain parallels between Nikea and Monarchia)

Thanks that's helpful. My main impression before was that he conquered the least, got beaten up by Corax and couldn't deal with no religion in his life.

It's kind of interesting though that for someone that conquered the least he had one of the larger legions. Even at Monarchia there was an inordinate number of Legionaries. The Word Bearers' fanaticism seems like it was quite a weapon.

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's kind of interesting though that for someone that conquered the least he had one of the larger legions. Even at Monarchia there was an inordinate number of Legionaries. The Word Bearers' fanaticism seems like it was quite a weapon.

Either that or, as they weren't fighting as much, they weren't dying as much.

Lorgar gains some measure of respect from Angron during the Shadow Crusade. You have the moment in Betrayer when Angron almost (*gasp*) thanks Lorgar for saving his life, and in The Butcher's Nails Angron compliments Lorgar on his improved combat skills.

Lorgar and Angron are still one of the great 'odd couples' in Warhammer lore, however.

One of the things I think that was (is?) missing from the HH books about the World Eaters is any mention of Khorne. The fluff was that Horus was able to pervert the World Eater's blood ceremonies and stuff to Khornate worship, and I figured that was what the whole Shadow Crusade was about, but it never merits a mention until Angron is a daemon, and Kharn isn't sure what he is. I like the book, but it's just weird that there's so little mentioned about any religious come-to-Khorne moments or anything for the WE.

They worship khorne by killing. Its all one and the same and bezerk lapses in control further that end. Khrone would still gain, without his name being directly worshipped as an entity

Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

 Karhedron wrote:
One theory popular in fanon is that Lorgar's power levels are linked to his faith in his actions. During the GC, he was trying to worship the Emperor and getting rejected which left him something of a weakling. By the Heresy, he has committed to Chaos and no longer has any doubts. His last flicker of hesitation was when he faced Corax at Istvaan, that was the end of the old Lorgar pretty much. After that, his faith is certain and his powers seem to grow as a result.

Fan theory I like is that this applies to all Primarchs. Vulkan gets killed by Curze with a fork, Guilliman struggles against a squad of Alpha Legions (yeah I know he was unarmed but half the depictions of Primarchs would have them ignore bolter fire) whilst Angron charges head first into pretty much everything and doesn't just get taken down by headshots and Corax detonates a grenade in his hand and shakes the tingles out. Faith in themselves/whatever makes them essentially stronger and more resilient (kind of fitting as they are partially Warp powered). Maybe their emotional state in general ties into it.

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

I think in Betrayer it's mentioned that

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

I think in Betrayer it's mentioned that

Spoiler:

Angron is mutating the ship he is in and affecting the minds of those around. It'll probably happen quite soon considering his influence.

Yeah, So it's undoubtedly through Angron that the WE will become aware of Khorne as an entity. And I believe that they were sporting red armor by the time of the Siege of Terra, if that provides a better timeframe. Still, they might not have Khornate symbols plastered on everything yet. It would be a gradual thing to get to 40K-style World Eaters. But as Skalathrax said, the WE had unknowingly been making offerings to Khorne for many years before Angron went daemonic.

 gorgon wrote:

Yeah,

Spoiler:

the Conqueror's walls are bleeding, etc., and Angron asks Kharn to build him a throne of skulls.

So it's undoubtedly through Angron that the WE will become aware of Khorne as an entity. And I believe that they were sporting red armor by the time of the Siege of Terra, if that provides a better timeframe. Still, they might not have Khornate symbols plastered on everything yet. It would be a gradual thing to get to 40K-style World Eaters. But as Skalathrax said, the WE had unknowingly been making offerings to Khorne for many years before Angron went daemonic.

Yeah I think so. Would like for it to be more gradual but to be fair the Emperors Children pretty much reached their 40K state by the Siege of Terra (other than being split into smaller warbands). Not sure how it'll pan out. Don't know if they'll still have the first to retreat thing from the Siege of Terra (if I recall correctly from the Index Astartes). It's true that they were essentially making offerings to Khorne prior to that but then to a lesser extent so was every Legion. All war feeds the Big Brass.

 gorgon wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

I think in Betrayer it's mentioned that

Spoiler:

Angron is mutating the ship he is in and affecting the minds of those around. It'll probably happen quite soon considering his influence.

Yeah,

Spoiler:

the Conqueror's walls are bleeding, etc., and Angron asks Kharn to build him a throne of skulls.

So it's undoubtedly through Angron that the WE will become aware of Khorne as an entity. And I believe that they were sporting red armor by the time of the Siege of Terra, if that provides a better timeframe. Still, they might not have Khornate symbols plastered on everything yet. It would be a gradual thing to get to 40K-style World Eaters. But as Skalathrax said, the WE had unknowingly been making offerings to Khorne for many years before Angron went daemonic.

Sadly not, they were already “khorne bezerkers” prior to angron becoming a daemon, they were rare though, through angron the wider legion was likely brought into the fold, but the corruption had already started.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
One theory popular in fanon is that Lorgar's power levels are linked to his faith in his actions. During the GC, he was trying to worship the Emperor and getting rejected which left him something of a weakling. By the Heresy, he has committed to Chaos and no longer has any doubts. His last flicker of hesitation was when he faced Corax at Istvaan, that was the end of the old Lorgar pretty much. After that, his faith is certain and his powers seem to grow as a result.

Fan theory I like is that this applies to all Primarchs. Vulkan gets killed by Curze with a fork, Guilliman struggles against a squad of Alpha Legions (yeah I know he was unarmed but half the depictions of Primarchs would have them ignore bolter fire) whilst Angron charges head first into pretty much everything and doesn't just get taken down by headshots and Corax detonates a grenade in his hand and shakes the tingles out. Faith in themselves/whatever makes them essentially stronger and more resilient (kind of fitting as they are partially Warp powered). Maybe their emotional state in general ties into it.

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

I think in Betrayer it's mentioned that

Spoiler:

Angron is mutating the ship he is in and affecting the minds of those around. It'll probably happen quite soon considering his influence.

That would actually be a pretty neat bit of lore. It would go a way to explain why Space Wolves do insane things all the time as they always go into things assuming they win.

Longstrider wrote:


Curze is sort of in the same boat as Angron to an extent - he's also not a true believe in the Emperor and his vision, but - I think like Lorgar - there was a time when he DID try. And, like Angron, he's not actually all that consistent with lining up his actions and his motivations. Curze despises (or thinks he does) lawbreakers and injustice, and then essentially turns a blind eye when it turns out his legion is just full of scum.

Konrad knew, from the very start, that he'd be killed by a loyal servant of the Emperor. I think there may have been a point where his engineered primarch biology made him care about the band of killers he hated, but I don't think he ever had, in his entire existence, anything else he ever loved. Angron loved the gladiator rebels that died when the Emperor took him. Lorgar loved the Emperor-as-God. Perturabo loved his craft. Even Mortarion kinda loved his foster father and the mortals he tried to save.

Was there ever anything Konrad cared about?

Did he love his world at all? He was a good enough ruler as I recall. Until someone did something illegal at which point he went all Space Batman.

His home planet was well run by Curze but unfortunately it was due to a planet wide fear of him and not because he instilled some idea of manifest destiny into the populace. When E-Money came and took Curze away for Great Genocide, Curzes home world fell back into corruption. He noticed his new recruits were the very ilk he hated and slaughtered. This made him very mad. He hated his legion and he went back to his home world to open a can of feth you to that planet.

Now I just feel bad for him. Poor Space Batman.

 Formosa wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but how does the worship start? When do they assume Khornate colours, and wear the skull rune?

I think in Betrayer it's mentioned that

Spoiler:

Angron is mutating the ship he is in and affecting the minds of those around. It'll probably happen quite soon considering his influence.

Yeah,

Spoiler:

the Conqueror's walls are bleeding, etc., and Angron asks Kharn to build him a throne of skulls.

So it's undoubtedly through Angron that the WE will become aware of Khorne as an entity. And I believe that they were sporting red armor by the time of the Siege of Terra, if that provides a better timeframe. Still, they might not have Khornate symbols plastered on everything yet. It would be a gradual thing to get to 40K-style World Eaters. But as Skalathrax said, the WE had unknowingly been making offerings to Khorne for many years before Angron went daemonic.

Sadly not, they were already “khorne bezerkers” prior to angron becoming a daemon, they were rare though, through angron the wider legion was likely brought into the fold, but the corruption had already started.

Can you cite a modern reference? It may exist, but I certainly haven't seen it. Yes, the Nails had created 'berzerkers' in the legion, including the Red Butchers. But that's a different thing than what the OP described -- wearing all red with Khornate iconography, shouting BFTBG, etc. It's pretty clear that Kharn and the WE don't fully understand what Angron has become at the end of Betrayer, although clearly they're about to be formerly introduced to the glories of the blood god.

I think it's in Galaxy in Flames where Kharn is fighting Loken and says about the Eightfold path. Before they had started to fall to Chaos the World Eaters walked the Crimson Path. I guess it's their first introduction to Khorne.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think it's in Galaxy in Flames where Kharn is fighting Loken and says about the Eightfold path. Before they had started to fall to Chaos the World Eaters walked the Crimson Path. I guess it's their first introduction to Khorne.

I think it's just another case of the BL not thinking it through from the beginning.