Feedback request; returning Terminators to 2nd edition style.

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**Backspacehacker**

techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

Yeah... I would rather see them justify their cost then get better transport options.

The saving throw is what matters, there's too much AP negative shooting right now. Rolling 2d6 for every save would slow down the game, maybe rerolls to all failed saves? Not counting invulnerable?

How about we make this even easier, keep their point cost the same give them a new rule and change it based on terminator pattern

Tataros\indomonus pattern: Ignore rend of -1, -2
Cataphractii: ignore rend of -1,-2,-3

**techsoldaten**

Backspacehacker wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

Yeah... I would rather see them justify their cost then get better transport options.

The saving throw is what matters, there's too much AP negative shooting right now. Rolling 2d6 for every save would slow down the game, maybe rerolls to all failed saves? Not counting invulnerable?

How about we make this even easier, keep their point cost the same give them a new rule and change it based on terminator pattern

Tataros\indomonus pattern: Ignore rend of -1, -2
Cataphractii: ignore rend of -1,-2,-3

That could work, but I think it would make them more expensive.

**Backspacehacker**

techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

Yeah... I would rather see them justify their cost then get better transport options.

The saving throw is what matters, there's too much AP negative shooting right now. Rolling 2d6 for every save would slow down the game, maybe rerolls to all failed saves? Not counting invulnerable?

How about we make this even easier, keep their point cost the same give them a new rule and change it based on terminator pattern

Tataros\indomonus pattern: Ignore rend of -1, -2
Cataphractii: ignore rend of -1,-2,-3

That could work, but I think it would make them more expensive.

I mean they are already like 225 points for 5 so sure make them 250 for 5, then they can actually do what they were meant to do, which is be shock troopers that soak up small arms fire.

**Martel732**

Rolling 2D6 slowed down nothing in 2nd. It just didn't help or matter much. Krak missiles were -6.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Backspacehacker wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
wait second ed terminators.....wenrnt they the ones that had a save of 3+ on 2d6 not like roll 2d6 and hope one was a 3+. as in, roll 2d6 add them and thats your save.

Yeah... I would rather see them justify their cost then get better transport options.

The saving throw is what matters, there's too much AP negative shooting right now. Rolling 2d6 for every save would slow down the game, maybe rerolls to all failed saves? Not counting invulnerable?

How about we make this even easier, keep their point cost the same give them a new rule and change it based on terminator pattern

Tataros\indomonus pattern: Ignore rend of -1, -2
Cataphractii: ignore rend of -1,-2,-3

That could work, but I think it would make them more expensive.

I mean they are already like 225 points for 5 so sure make them 250 for 5, then they can actually do what they were meant to do, which is be shock troopers that soak up small arms fire.

They already DO soak up small arms fire. This is the most durable they've been for the cost in a long time. Outside very specific weapons, they're more durable all around.

So once again it isn't durability that's the problem. It's the offense they lack.

**iGuy91**

I wonder if some kind of "brace" stratagem might be worthwhile.

1 CP to increase their toughness by 1, and their armor to a 3+ 2d6 for the phase.

Then give them WS/BS 2+, and +1 attack in melee.

**jeff white**

I think that they shouldn't suffer the -1 for moving and shooting,for starters.
And, they needn't have the unwieldly pfist penalty.
Make these changes,
let them ride in rhinos as described, and keep the points the same.

BTW, units are not only costed for their effectiveness, Also they are costed for their availability to the army, to reinforce army flavor, to reflect rarity of units, stuff like that is why CSM termies are more expensive I think....

**JNAProductions**

iGuy91 wrote:I wonder if some kind of "brace" stratagem might be worthwhile.

1 CP to increase their toughness by 1, and their armor to a 3+ 2d6 for the phase.

Then give them WS/BS 2+, and +1 attack in melee.

Do NOT give them a 3+ on 2d6. That rolling would be a massive pain given the amount of dice you can throw at them. Otherwise I have no real objections, pending playtesting.

jeff white wrote:I think that they shouldn't suffer the -1 for moving and shooting,for starters.
And, they needn't have the unwieldly pfist penalty.
Make these changes,
let them ride in rhinos as described, and keep the points the same.

BTW, units are not only costed for their effectiveness, Also they are costed for their availability to the army, to reinforce army flavor, to reflect rarity of units, stuff like that is why CSM termies are more expensive I think....

Except points are not attached to the fluff. If a unit is worth X points, I don't care if it's the single most common unit in the fluff or one-of-a-kind, it's worth X points.

**iGuy91**

JNAProductions wrote:
iGuy91 wrote:I wonder if some kind of "brace" stratagem might be worthwhile.

1 CP to increase their toughness by 1, and their armor to a 3+ 2d6 for the phase.

Then give them WS/BS 2+, and +1 attack in melee.

Do NOT give them a 3+ on 2d6. That rolling would be a massive pain given the amount of dice you can throw at them. Otherwise I have no real objections, pending playtesting.

jeff white wrote:I think that they shouldn't suffer the -1 for moving and shooting,for starters.
And, they needn't have the unwieldly pfist penalty.
Make these changes,
let them ride in rhinos as described, and keep the points the same.

BTW, units are not only costed for their effectiveness, Also they are costed for their availability to the army, to reinforce army flavor, to reflect rarity of units, stuff like that is why CSM termies are more expensive I think....

Except points are not attached to the fluff. If a unit is worth X points, I don't care if it's the single most common unit in the fluff or one-of-a-kind, it's worth X points.

How about 1 CP to increase them to t5, and then make their armor ignore rend for the phase, instead of rolling multiple dice.

So to recap
WS/BS 2+
+1 Melee Attack

**BaconCatBug**

Make them roll a D12 instead of a D6 for their saves!

In all seriousness though, they should get a rule lowering all damage by 1 to counter the fact Plasma deletes them in addition to T5, with no points increase.

**Northern85Star**

iGuy91 wrote:
I wonder if some kind of "brace" stratagem might be worthwhile.

1 CP to increase their toughness by 1, and their armor to a 3+ 2d6 for the phase.

Then give them WS/BS 2+, and +1 attack in melee.

Unit specific stratagems are an excellent idea! Activatable abilities
Edit: in general

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconCatBug wrote:
Make them roll a D12 instead of a D6 for their saves!

In all seriousness though, they should get a rule lowering all damage by 1 to counter the fact Plasma deletes them in addition to T5, with no points increase.

I second this.

**Andykp**

Northern85Star wrote:
Andykp wrote:
They weren't bad right out of the box, in 1st edition they were awesome and cost a quarter of your army for a squad, that were the only deep striking units and the only 2+ save infantry around (back then power armour was only 4+). Absolute beasts with great new weapons. U have reminded me of that so maybe they should go to the top of the pile for infantry based armour again. +1t, 2+ and can't be modified or something crazy, but it should cost you loads. I remover taking terminators was a commitment due to high points cost.

So either it is the be all and end all of armour or you accept it has been superseded by more advanced armour in the last 1000 years the game has been around. IMO.

My problem with them now Is they are shorter than a primaris marine. Can't field them as they look silly next to one.

Use normal marines as proxies for primaris. Either go all primaris or all space marine list. Dont feed the GW scam like a tool.

I've gone all primaris. Can't even look at old marines now, never had a problem before but now they look so wrong.