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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





pm713 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
darthryan wrote:
How many people that actualy met guilliman 10,000 yrs ago are there and how well wojuld they remember his every personality trait or tick


Cawl, Magnus, and Cypher, all of whom feature heavily in the book in which he returned, just to name a few. Also, you know, the Emperor, who Roboute has a conversation with in the novel Dark Imperium.

Cawl has to remember his ticks for 10'000 years so he's pretty unreliable, Cypher dips in and out of the Warp and may not even be the original Cypher assuming that he knew Guilliman that well anyway and Magnus is full on Chaos so he could easily be in on any plans. Who said he talks with the Emperor? He's dead.

Plus every one of those people is either a Traitor or does a lot of things against the Imperium. Not counting Big E who's dead.
We see Guilliman have a conversation with the Emperor in Dark Imperium. I don't know how much more clear cut you can get that both Guilliman IS Guilliman, and that the Emperor is still alive.

Spoiler:
Not my document, but for those who didn't read the book itself, here's the passage it refers to. Mods, if this isn't okay, feel free to delete.

That's pretty lame and boring. It actually being Alpharius lying about the Emperor would have been so much more interesting. No way around the dumb stuff there.
Dumb is subjective. If Guilliman had been Alpharius all along, I'd hate it more than all of the Cawl fluff combined.

Making Guilliman Alpharius would be a plot twist for the sake of it, and not a good one (subjective). Actually advancing the setting and giving the Imperium someone competent is a good way in raising the stakes - we see more of Guilliman's personal struggles, his realisation that the Emperor isn't some kind of all-loving father and his acceptance of that, the desperate last attempts for the Imperium to fight back and reclaim half the galaxy, and get some good looking models in the process.

Personally, why SHOULD Alpharius come back? Him dying meant absolutely nothing to his Legion - hell, it's practically his thing to die and for nothing to matter because of it. The Alpha Legion aren't like the Thousand Sons, who would be massively renewed when Magnus joins them. Alpharius is already with them - everything he could have done for his Legion, he did.
Do I think he should have been killed in PoD? Probably not, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Him being alive or dead would mean absolutely nothing.


They/them

 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Making Guilliman Alpharius would make the whole resurrection make much more sense. There's no reason for the Eldar to bring Guilliman back it just massively helps the Imperium with no downside for them. If it was Alpharius then they can bolster the Imperium against Chaos then tear them down when they need to.
But instead the Eldar needed to massively help their second biggest enemy with no backup plan. Which is just weird. The race of manipulators who change the fate of everyone around them to help themselves just shot themselves in the foot.

But instead of doing something smart in gathering storm we had the Ynnari being the new heroes of the Eldar with incredibly little complaints from other factions. It came across as Ynnari and not Ynnari. The Imperium literally magicked up an army of Super Marines and Cawl who just so happened to have improved the geneseed (which is weird seeing as Bile was trained by Haemonculus and he didn't do it) on top of them getting back the poster boy Primarch.

Nothing says dumb like bringing back a dead man when you have three other Primarchs who'd be far more interesting as characters who aren't dead. But that's my opinion.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




The other Primarchs really aren't more interesting and they'd be worse leaders in a crisis like now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JamesY wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys DO realize that Alpha Legion lose in most of the novels? So no, that's not an excuse. It's a poor book by a poor author.


No it isn't, it's an alright book by a decent author. And I never suggested that they had been winning, I said that they had been making other legions look foolish, which they have. The fact that not all of their plans have worked out doesn't take away from the amount of damage they inflicted getting that far. Alpharius took a massive gamble putting operatives on Terra long before the heresy even started, and he paid the price for it when he lost. However, no reason why Omegon can't carry on as Alpharius, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see a resurgence of the character in 40k.

Like I said, Alpharius being killed by Dorn would be fine if it weren't for the novel being terribly written by an Imperial Fists fanboy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 14:22:16


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




That's why it would be interesting. Oh the one who was a perfect leader etc is back I wonder what he'll do? But if you bring back someone like Russ then you can make it interesting. Is he going to be a leader? Stick to being a warrior? How's he going to do? Same goes for the Lion. He'd have to deal with his Legions shadiness and people in the Imperium.

Way more interesting than the perfect poster boy coming back from the dead.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

Also, Guilliman being Alpharius makes sense-- it's not just twist for the sake of twist.

1. Alpha Legion stole the purest gene-seed from the Raven Guard who got it from the vaults on Terra.... that could have been the final ingredient Cawl needed to eventually make the Primaris. (This would help my head cannon a lot, he was working with the best gene-seed ever so of course he was able to make better marines over 10k years).

2. The Battle of Eskrador. Guilliaman led an attack on the Alpha Legion and attempted to take out Alpharius with a decapitation strike. 'Officially', he was successful but barely made it out of there with a few marines left from the strike-force. It was the perfect opportunity to replace him and have a few Alpha Legionnaires go with Alpharius as the 'last surviving Ultramarines'. It also helps that the Ultramarines don't have any records of that battle, so they don't know who went and died.

3. Codex Astartes and the breaking of the Legions. I'm going to list this as circumstantial because we're not sure if this happened after the Battle of Eskrador or not. However, I believe it would be after because it's the perfect way to break apart the loyalist 'legions' to reduce their overall strength which benefits the Alpha Legion greatly. In addition, if Alpharius wished to replace loyalists with more Alpha Marines, it's much easier to replace isolated chunks of 1,000 than an entire legion.

4. Alpha Legion gene-seed is pretty damn pure, so checks on Ultramarine gene-seed wouldn't even reveal an abnormality. There'd be almost no way to determine if the Ultramarine ranks were being infiltrated and replaced by Alpha Legionnaires. Later on, new batches of Ultramarines would be entirely Alpha Legionnaires by the stock that was used.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





pm713 wrote:Making Guilliman Alpharius would make the whole resurrection make much more sense. There's no reason for the Eldar to bring Guilliman back it just massively helps the Imperium with no downside for them. If it was Alpharius then they can bolster the Imperium against Chaos then tear them down when they need to.
But instead the Eldar needed to massively help their second biggest enemy with no backup plan. Which is just weird. The race of manipulators who change the fate of everyone around them to help themselves just shot themselves in the foot.

But instead of doing something smart in gathering storm we had the Ynnari being the new heroes of the Eldar with incredibly little complaints from other factions. It came across as Ynnari and not Ynnari. The Imperium literally magicked up an army of Super Marines and Cawl who just so happened to have improved the geneseed (which is weird seeing as Bile was trained by Haemonculus and he didn't do it) on top of them getting back the poster boy Primarch.
On the contrary, Guilliman is a far better pick than Alpharius. The Eldar can largely trust and know Guilliman to be a rational leader, and one who is honour-bound. He is unlikely to work behind the Eldar's backs, and even if so, isn't as adept as Alpharius. Alpharius could and would take down the Imperium if given the chance, which Guilliman would not do, but who says the Eldar need a Primarch to do it. The Ynnari only need to survive long enough to awaken Ynnead, and they wouldn't need to worry about humanity after that.

It's in their best interests to have a stable commander who is unlikely to turn against them and bolster the Imperium against Chaos. The Eldar can pay lip service and do their bit in aiding Guilliman, but they only have to awaken Ynnead, and that's their game over.

Keeping the Imperium alive is the best hope of preventing Chaos - and yes, whilst the Imperium has done just as much damage to them in realspace, they don't harvest your soul after death. Chaos do, and seeing as they're opposed to eachother, siding with the Imperium isn't stupid.

Nothing says dumb like bringing back a dead man when you have three other Primarchs who'd be far more interesting as characters who aren't dead. But that's my opinion.
Lion and Guilliman were consistently most likely to come back because we knew where their bodies were. For the others, they were all MIA, and frankly, if they came back in such a manner, I'd call that a massive Deus-Ex. We know Russ wouldn't go and lead, nor would any of the others (Vulkan outright refused in the War of the Beast). That leaves Lion and Guilliman. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded Lion coming back, as it would have made a nice story hook for the Fallen and Dark Angels. However, I believe that GW don't yet know what they want to do with that plot line, and Guilliman's arc is good, considering in his position as a statesman before, he's been idealistic - now, he has to compromise his personal values to rule a far larger empire he wishes he'd never been in charge of.

I like it.

Otto Weston wrote:Also, Guilliman being Alpharius makes sense-- it's not just twist for the sake of twist.

1. Alpha Legion stole the purest gene-seed from the Raven Guard who got it from the vaults on Terra.... that could have been the final ingredient Cawl needed to eventually make the Primaris. (This would help my head cannon a lot, he was working with the best gene-seed ever so of course he was able to make better marines over 10k years).

2. The Battle of Eskrador. Guilliaman led an attack on the Alpha Legion and attempted to take out Alpharius with a decapitation strike. 'Officially', he was successful but barely made it out of there with a few marines left from the strike-force. It was the perfect opportunity to replace him and have a few Alpha Legionnaires go with Alpharius as the 'last surviving Ultramarines'. It also helps that the Ultramarines don't have any records of that battle, so they don't know who went and died.

3. Codex Astartes and the breaking of the Legions. I'm going to list this as circumstantial because we're not sure if this happened after the Battle of Eskrador or not. However, I believe it would be after because it's the perfect way to break apart the loyalist 'legions' to reduce their overall strength which benefits the Alpha Legion greatly. In addition, if Alpharius wished to replace loyalists with more Alpha Marines, it's much easier to replace isolated chunks of 1,000 than an entire legion.

4. Alpha Legion gene-seed is pretty damn pure, so checks on Ultramarine gene-seed wouldn't even reveal an abnormality. There'd be almost no way to determine if the Ultramarine ranks were being infiltrated and replaced by Alpha Legionnaires. Later on, new batches of Ultramarines would be entirely Alpha Legionnaires by the stock that was used.
Perhaps, but considering PoD coming out and making Eskrador's events dubious canon, we don't know how that plays out now.

Cawl using the Raven Guard stock is good, but perhaps there was more of that geneseed on Terra? After all, it was the Emperor's own stocks.

I think people hate on the Codex and call it impractical too much. I think it's a very solid idea considering why the Heresy happened (a cult of personality around a single individual, and centralisation of legions making them susceptible to attack), and taking steps to prevent it. Considering that there's been fewer Space Marines turning to Chaos since the Heresy, that's a pretty good end result. Sure, some Chapters have turned, but far less than half, and if one of those Chapter Masters had been in charge of a Legion and fell to Chaos? That's a massive problem.

I think geneseed is indentifiable beyond just purity. Even if UM and AL geneseeds were both pure, I don't doubt that they could be identified between eachother.


They/them

 
   
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Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 15:50:34


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It is entirely possible in universe he didn't die, of course with a few spoilers from PoD and other books:


Spoiler:

To be fair it is technically possible for Alpharius to have not truly died on PoD, for a variety of reasons so I could see him coming back either during the Horus or anytime after. We have the short story where the Alpha legionary drank the blood of his Primarch and was able to convince other AL marines he was the primarch. We also know the AL stole some of the original genetic data the Emperor had given Corax before PoD, and ofcourse in PoD we learn the AL can do their mind/essence transfer. Combine all three and I'll say it's entirely possible Alpharius will make an appearance again, even as soon as the HH.


Now will he? I think he's the most likely out of all the "dead" ones to basically, but we shall see I suppose.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.

Sorry but the Badab War proves the codex works in stopping greater damage from heresy.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.



From your posts it seems pretty clear to me that your real issue here isn't that you think Alpharius being gulliman would be a better story, You just don't like Gulliman and would prefer another returned Primarch.

Gulliman was returned because he was the only Primarch who could step forward and lead the Imperium. None of the others where intreasted. they are eaither dead or fethed off, which suggests a profound disintrest in the job, and possiably even the fate of the Imperium.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






John French, author of Praetorian of Dorn (and not the 1st Earl of Ypres), confirmed Alpharius is dead at a Black Library weekender.

Omegon, granted he didn't die at Eskrador, might be alive and kicking. However, as of Sons of the Hydra, he did not seem to be taking an active part in the Long War.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Also, Guilliman being Alpharius makes sense-- it's not just twist for the sake of twist.

1. Alpha Legion stole the purest gene-seed from the Raven Guard who got it from the vaults on Terra.... that could have been the final ingredient Cawl needed to eventually make the Primaris. (This would help my head cannon a lot, he was working with the best gene-seed ever so of course he was able to make better marines over 10k years).

2. The Battle of Eskrador. Guilliaman led an attack on the Alpha Legion and attempted to take out Alpharius with a decapitation strike. 'Officially', he was successful but barely made it out of there with a few marines left from the strike-force. It was the perfect opportunity to replace him and have a few Alpha Legionnaires go with Alpharius as the 'last surviving Ultramarines'. It also helps that the Ultramarines don't have any records of that battle, so they don't know who went and died.

3. Codex Astartes and the breaking of the Legions. I'm going to list this as circumstantial because we're not sure if this happened after the Battle of Eskrador or not. However, I believe it would be after because it's the perfect way to break apart the loyalist 'legions' to reduce their overall strength which benefits the Alpha Legion greatly. In addition, if Alpharius wished to replace loyalists with more Alpha Marines, it's much easier to replace isolated chunks of 1,000 than an entire legion.

4. Alpha Legion gene-seed is pretty damn pure, so checks on Ultramarine gene-seed wouldn't even reveal an abnormality. There'd be almost no way to determine if the Ultramarine ranks were being infiltrated and replaced by Alpha Legionnaires. Later on, new batches of Ultramarines would be entirely Alpha Legionnaires by the stock that was used.


1. It was contaminated with the Chaos-virus-thing they infected it with and the Alpha Legion couldn't remove the virus, thus rendering it useless.

4. We know they can tell the gene-seed origin to at least a certain degree, ref. Soul Drinkers. It is most likely the Ultramarines are being infiltrated via Alphic Hydra recruits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 09:56:48


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.

Sorry but the Badab War proves the codex works in stopping greater damage from heresy.

How? There weren't any Primarchs. My point was that even if they were split into Chapters in the Heresy they'd still follow the Primarch over the Emperor most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.



From your posts it seems pretty clear to me that your real issue here isn't that you think Alpharius being gulliman would be a better story, You just don't like Gulliman and would prefer another returned Primarch.

Gulliman was returned because he was the only Primarch who could step forward and lead the Imperium. None of the others where intreasted. they are eaither dead or fethed off, which suggests a profound disintrest in the job, and possiably even the fate of the Imperium.

You can't claim they aren't interested when they go MIA. That's like saying Guilliman wasn't interested because he died. Guilliman was returned because he's the poster boy Chapters Primarch. All the Primarchs were capable of leading things like the Imperium bar Angron who had his brain messed up. Guilliman is the only one whose speciality was being a manager. My issue is that rather than attempting something interesting where a Primarch would have genuine issues with their jobs that you'd get with the Lion for example they brought back Guilliman which not only makes far less sense but is less interesting. The only thing they have for issues with Guilliman is him finally realising the Emperor didn't care about them and that's done with all of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 16:34:30


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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Ute nation

Alpharius is a dead as a doornail, which is fine because Omegon is still around. Alpharius/Omegon joined Horus because of the visions shown to them by the cabal, which is interesting and I'll get to in a sec. However the immediate point is they weren't fighting to end the emperor, they were fighting to prevent the ruinous powers ascending. Assuming Omegon has the same motivations as his brother, the IoM is the only chance the galaxy has now to stop the ruinous powers, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't work against the IoM.

So here is the trick, in the cabals visions, the current timeline could only have happened if the alpha legion had remained loyal. Assuming no Tzeentch changeling style trickery, in act of hubris Alpharius figured he could have his cake and eat it to. His plan was to infiltrate the rebellion, which he knew was destined to fail because his loyalty was unchanged. His legion would then infiltrate the coming chaos resurgence, and hamstring it at it's moment of triumph. This would save humanity from immediate extinction by horus, and if he could pull it off, would save humanity from extinction by ruinous powers in the 41st millenium.

Roboute Guilliman falls into omegons trap on Eskrador, surrounded, and outnumbered Omegon gives him the straight dope. Alpha legion remained loyal during the heresy, and that in the 41st millenium the ruinous powers would return to destroy humanity. The alpha legion will try to cripple the chaos threat from within but the IoM must be strong enough to withstand the attack. He then lets Roboute Guilliman go.

Roboute doesn't believe him for a minute, but too many things add up to dismiss it out hand, so in an abundance of caution he orders records of the battle purged from the ultramarines archives. He starts the Primarus project with kawl, and then dies at the hands of his brother. It's telling that one of the first things he does upon waking up from his dirt nap is to try to figure out what year it is. He does that because he knows he is on a clock, and needs to be ready in time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 17:29:59


Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
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UK

 ChazSexington wrote:
John French, author of Praetorian of Dorn (and not the 1st Earl of Ypres), confirmed Alpharius is dead at a Black Library weekender.

Seems like overkill. The book already had the epilogue from Omegon's PoV which confirmed he knew Alpharius was dead (unless you think the writer is going to adopt a very weird device of having a character lie to his own inner monologue).

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Also, Guilliman being Alpharius makes sense-- it's not just twist for the sake of twist.
1. Alpha Legion stole the purest gene-seed from the Raven Guard who got it from the vaults on Terra.... that could have been the final ingredient Cawl needed to eventually make the Primaris. (This would help my head cannon a lot, he was working with the best gene-seed ever so of course he was able to make better marines over 10k years).


1. It was contaminated with the Chaos-virus-thing they infected it with and the Alpha Legion couldn't remove the virus, thus rendering it useless.

No, the AL Marines stole a sample of the pure Geneseed before they infected the remainder. They then turned it over to Horus (or maybe just some of it) who then handed it to Bile.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
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pm713 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.

Sorry but the Badab War proves the codex works in stopping greater damage from heresy.

How? There weren't any Primarchs. My point was that even if they were split into Chapters in the Heresy they'd still follow the Primarch over the Emperor most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.



From your posts it seems pretty clear to me that your real issue here isn't that you think Alpharius being gulliman would be a better story, You just don't like Gulliman and would prefer another returned Primarch.

Gulliman was returned because he was the only Primarch who could step forward and lead the Imperium. None of the others where intreasted. they are eaither dead or fethed off, which suggests a profound disintrest in the job, and possiably even the fate of the Imperium.

You can't claim they aren't interested when they go MIA. That's like saying Guilliman wasn't interested because he died. Guilliman was returned because he's the poster boy Chapters Primarch. All the Primarchs were capable of leading things like the Imperium bar Angron who had his brain messed up. Guilliman is the only one whose speciality was being a manager. My issue is that rather than attempting something interesting where a Primarch would have genuine issues with their jobs that you'd get with the Lion for example they brought back Guilliman which not only makes far less sense but is less interesting. The only thing they have for issues with Guilliman is him finally realising the Emperor didn't care about them and that's done with all of them.

Not all Chapters know where they come from and don't always get along with their parent Chapter. When you have just a couple of rogue elements like the Astral Claws/Mantis Warriors/Executioners/Lamentors, it's easier to neutralize the threat, even when someone as skilled as Huron is at the head of it all. You can think of Huron as their equivalent.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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They don't know because it's been centuries since they split off and the Imperium is as good at record keeping as it is at spreading peace and goodwill.
In the Heresy it's been less than 200 hundred years so it's pretty easy to know who their Primarch is.

Like I said the Codex in the time of the Heresy doesn't help because they followed Primarchs and the size of their organisations wouldn't change that.

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No plot line with Alpharius should make any sense. AT ALL! He was convinced by a council of space aliens to betray and slaughter the human race. Why? Because all the aliens would be sooo much better at fighting chaos. So.....yeah. Alpharius is either crazier than Curze or just plain old meaner than Angron.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 19:33:50


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To be fair all the aliens in 40k are better at fighting Chaos than humans are.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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pm713 wrote:
Why is Ynnead automatically this big endgame? Last I checked it was all about killing Eldar to awaken him. Of course that's the only option left since GW put all the other plot lines in the corner.
Because Ynnead can be awoken without neeidng to kill all the Eldar - they're intending on using the Crone Swords to do this. Get the swords, and they can save the Eldar race. So long as the Imperium doesn't actively stop them, they can shield behind them and achieve their goals.

Keeping the Imperium alive is good. Greatly helping them is not. They need them alive enough to stop Chaos and that's it. All Guilliman does is make them stronger so when Chaos is gone the Imperium will just start butchering the Eldar again.
Bringing back Guilliman IS keeping the Imperium alive. Don't forget, the Imperium has lost half the galaxy. The only thing keeping a lot of it intact is Guilliman and his Primaris Marines. They're not suddenly stronger than ever before.

You think bringing missing Primarchs back is Deus Ex but literally resurrecting the dead isn't? Russ is prophesied to return at the Wolf Time which was basically the Fall of Cadia, Khan was lost in the Webway and can be logically brought back by having the Harlequins capture him and release him in the event Chaos gets too bad.
How was the Wolftime the Fall of Cadia?

Guilliman and the Lion have been at the forefront for years. We know exactly where they are, we know their status and conditions. They're not missing, they're not waiting to suddenly enter stage left. RG and Lion have always been downstage, not in the centre of attention, but they've been present. Lion being hinted as waking up, Guilliman "healing" in stasis - they've shown development and foreshadowing beyond "they vanished but they said they'd come back at a random time".

Any of the MIA primarchs coming back would have been Deus-Ex, barring your hypothetical example of Khan being hidden by the Harlequins, but then that's no different to the Ynnari resurrecting Guilliman, and you said that wasn't in character for the Aeldari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Codex is a pretty bad measure to stop Traitors. The Legions fell because they were pretty much all loyal to their Primarchs and their Primarchs fell because the Emperor's a blind man with brain damage.

You could stick the Codex into Heresy and nothing would change.
Astral Claws put paid to that line of thinking.
The issue was that the Legions had a single central leader, and if that leader was to be corrupted, then the rest of their Legion would probably fall too. Take Huron - now imagine if he were to be in charge of a Legion sized force. Or the Chapters that sided with him being Legions too.

Limiting the influence of the individual to reduce the risk of a single figure holding supreme influence over 10,000 to a smaller 1000 is a good move. I genuinely don't see the perk of having a Legion in this circumstance. The Legions were hardly kept in one place anyway, so there's no loss of diversity and where the Astartes can operate - in fact, there's more flexibility, because Chapter Masters can act on their own autonomy, instead of needing to clear it with their Legion Commander first.


They/them

 
   
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Guys stop....alpharius is not coming back......its omagon guys.

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