So Wave Serpents can't be charged?

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**doctortom**

BaconCatBug wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Lay the model down on the battlefield, like its fallen over. There is no rule saying you cant do that. The base will be within 1" of the WS hull.
"It doesn't say I can't" isn't a rules argument. It doesn't say I can't take some salami and rub it on the doorknob to automatically pass morale tests either.

You don't have permission to alter how a model is assembled mid game, so you can't. Granted, you can put it on it's side when it moves, as there is no requirement to have it upright when you do so.

And if he starts the game with it on its side and kept it that way through the game?

**Xenomancers**

Sometimes I run my Nid walking around backwards just for SNG's. I call it ass attack.

**Galef**

So let me get this straight, even if I do not buy into the silly idea that a WS is "unchargable", units still need to measure vertical distance from their base, meaning that charging models actually "lose" about an inch od horizontal distance when charging my WS?

**fresus**

Galef wrote:
So let me get this straight, even if I do not buy into the silly idea that a WS is "unchargable", units still need to measure vertical distance form their base, meaning that charging models actually "lose" about an inch when charging my WS?

HIWPI: measure distances when looking from above, so don't include any vertical distance (assuming the two models are on the same surface of course). Mostly because that's fairly easy and intuitive.
The way you want to play it is roughly equivalent to using some type of WMS to say that the charging model is actually not on the ground, but ~1" above the table surface. That's probably closer to RAW, but you then raise the question of how far the WS hull really is, and the only logical solution is that the charge will always fail.

**Galef**

fresus wrote:
Galef wrote:
So let me get this straight, even if I do not buy into the silly idea that a WS is "unchargable", units still need to measure vertical distance form their base, meaning that charging models actually "lose" about an inch when charging my WS?

HIWPI: measure distances when looking from above, so don't include any vertical distance (assuming the two models are on the same surface of course). Mostly because that's fairly easy and intuitive.
The way you want to play it is roughly equivalent to using some type of WMS to say that the charging model is actually not on the ground, but ~1" above the table surface. That's probably closer to RAW, but you then raise the question of how far the WS hull really is, and the only logical solution is that the charge will always fail.

That is HIWPI as well, and how I have always played it. Any other way just seems derpy

-

**MagicJuggler**

This looks like another one for the Blooper Reel.

**AnomanderRake**

DarknessEternal wrote:
iGuy91 wrote:
I believe most folks would call that modeling for advantage if not using the base supplied in the box. I would argue that when in doubt its in.

It is the base supplied with the box.

No.

It isn't.

GW ships two different kinds of base pegs for skimmer bases; the ones shipped with Wave Serpents and Devilfish are the short ones that are under 1" long. If you swap the base peg for one of the ones shipped with Vypers, Tau drones, old jetbikes, etc. (which are that long) and then claim that gives you immunity to melee you are absolutely cheating.

(Before anyone tries to claim that Vypers, Raiders, etc. are thus immune to melee they don't have the special rule Wave Serpents do that makes you measure to the hull.)

**DeathReaper**

p5freak wrote:
Citation where it says that the rules are permissive please. I cant find it.

You won't find it in the 40k rules because that is literally how all game rules are written.

Yakface said it best:

yakface wrote:
All games have permissive rules. Every single one of them, period. No exceptions ever (nor could there ever be). There are likely no rules in soccer, rugby and ice hockey that restrict players from driving their cars onto the field, using hand grenades, or letting waterfowl run wild across the field, yet no one is allowed to do those things in those games because they are not permitted by the rules. A game starts as NOTHING until rules are created that allow things to happen within the framework of that game. If those rules aren't in place, then the game doesn't exist. There can still be restrictions constructed within that framework of those permissive rules (in fact there always are), but that doesn't change the basic fact that all games are created by permissive rules.

**doctortom**

AnomanderRake wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
iGuy91 wrote:
I believe most folks would call that modeling for advantage if not using the base supplied in the box. I would argue that when in doubt its in.

It is the base supplied with the box.

No.

It isn't.

GW ships two different kinds of base pegs for skimmer bases; the ones shipped with Wave Serpents and Devilfish are the short ones that are under 1" long. If you swap the base peg for one of the ones shipped with Vypers, Tau drones, old jetbikes, etc. (which are that long) and then claim that gives you immunity to melee you are absolutely cheating.

(Before anyone tries to claim that Vypers, Raiders, etc. are thus immune to melee they don't have the special rule Wave Serpents do that makes you measure to the hull.)

I've bought a wave serpent before which had both the short and the tall pegs in the box.

**Bharring**

Wave Serpents and Falcon-class chasis I've purchased came with both pegs.

Still a very beardy thing to claim.

**BaconCatBug**

Bharring wrote:
Wave Serpents and Falcon-class chasis I've purchased came with both pegs.

Still a very beardy thing to claim.

It's as beardy as asking someone to -1 from their hit rolls when moving and shooting heavy weapons as far as I am concerned. The rules are clear, if GW want to change them they need to change them.

**Bharring**

It's not quite on the level of MCs having, what was it, "Monsterous Smash" instead of "Monsterous" and "Smash" in 6e, and not getting FAQed.

It's still extremely clearly not RAI.

That said, it does cut both ways. Sure, those THVV can't charge the Serpent. But the Serpent can't charge your Devs.

**DarknessEternal**

AnomanderRake wrote:

GW ships two different kinds of base pegs for skimmer bases; the ones shipped with Wave Serpents and Devilfish are the short ones that are under 1" long.

All seven of my Wave Serpents have come with at least one stand+base that is more than 1 inch in height.

**Galef**

There are technically 4 heights of flight stand "pegs"
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Flying-Stems-with-60mm-Flying-Bases
35mm & 30mm (so over 1")
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Flying-Stems-with-32mm-Flying-Bases
20mm & 15mm (less than 1")

I've bought Serpents and other Grav tanks that include either set before, so even if you get the 20mm/15mm, you can absolutely use the 35mm/30mm instead as GW has at one point or another supplied the kit with them, making it perfectly legal for even the most strict guidelines.

Both distance really should be measures horizontally to charge the Serpent, otherwise the game breaks and will lead to an arguement

-

**heckler**

I'm afraid in a situation where a player declared I could not achieve a successful charge on a WS due to this, I would not hesitate to put my model on it's side to complete the charge.

**leopard**

would just shake their hand and pack up to be honest, some people are fun to play against, others are not

**JohnnyHell**

leopard wrote:
would just shake their hand and pack up to be honest, some people are fun to play against, others are not

Agreed. This behaviour would just be symptomatic of other douchiness yet to be discovered. You’d be saving yourself hassle by just walking away.

**leopard**

JohnnyHell wrote:
leopard wrote:
would just shake their hand and pack up to be honest, some people are fun to play against, others are not

Agreed. This behaviour would just be symptomatic of other douchiness yet to be discovered. You’d be saving yourself hassle by just walking away.

basically this, yes they may well be technically correct and yes this is technically the best sort of correct but a games meant to be enjoyable for both sides. Have found a very small number of players who will try stuff like this, most of them just set it up to point out how absurd it is, then get on with the game.

the vanishingly small number who have a problem are a PitA in oh so many other ways

**DarknessEternal**

Tenets of You Make Da Call wrote:
5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster.

**Irbis**

Galef wrote:
There are technically 4 heights of flight stand "pegs"
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Flying-Stems-with-60mm-Flying-Bases
35mm & 30mm (so over 1")
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Flying-Stems-with-32mm-Flying-Bases
20mm & 15mm (less than 1")

I've bought Serpents and other Grav tanks that include either set before, so even if you get the 20mm/15mm, you can absolutely use the 35mm/30mm instead as GW has at one point or another supplied the kit with them, making it perfectly legal for even the most strict guidelines.

Both distance really should be measures horizontally to charge the Serpent, otherwise the game breaks and will lead to an arguement

Alternatively, if someone tries BCBing, beat them in their own game by using anti-Serpent bases:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/40k-hero-bases-2016

There, less than inch no matter the stem. Problem solved

**Ice_can**

Ha ha next you'll start an argument about what is base and what is model. But if someone's being that much of a rules lawyer about it, it's not going to be a fun game.

**Malachon**

Ice_can wrote:
Ha ha next you'll start an argument about what is base and what is model. But if someone's being that much of a rules lawyer about it, it's not going to be a fun game.

Actually, that is exactly what my first question would be if someone tried to pull this on me. If needed I could just stick a toothpick between two rocks on my base, call it part of the base and measure from there.

But walking away would probably be my real reaction. If people don't want to play nice, I don't want to play with them at all.

**DarknessEternal**

Please stop ignoring tenet 5 and stick to the rules.

**JohnnyHell**

Discussing a hypothetical opponent is not breaking Tenet 5.

**Mickmann**

<sarcasm on> This is a bit silly, but does that mean that if i deploy my space marines lying on the ground, head towards the enemy, he cant charge me without running around my squad because the model is on the "other side" of the model? <sarcasm off>

Is there actually a rule that says I have to deploy units standing on their base (other than common sense) ?

**JohnnyHell**

Mickmann wrote:
<sarcasm on> This is a bit silly, but does that mean that if i deploy my space marines lying on the ground, head towards the enemy, he cant charge me without running around my squad because the model is on the "other side" of the model? <sarcasm off>

Is there actually a rule that says I have to deploy units standing on their base (other than common sense) ?

Just common sense and decades of precedent. Honestly, if this needs to be written as a rule for someone to accept it there’s little point in playing them... you’ll save yourself a headache with all the inevitable later rules lawyering!