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Made in tw
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@Delvarus: sometimes fights happen because one persons help is seens as another persons insult. So yes, the Lion was trying tonteach a lesson, and yes just like anyone woukd expect, Russ saw these as an insult leading to a fight.

As per bias, this story wasn't written in a vacuum. A plot point like this is almost certain to have been discussed, and was probably proposed at one of the black library meetings between authors to plan out the heresy series. If Russ got beat, then thats bith the new canon, and it was probably decided upon to that it will support a different plot point later on. It serves a purpose for the story as a whole, not just for these two characters.

   
Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




Came for the bait, contracted cancer from the delirious defence of objective material as 'biased'.
SW fanboys just never learn huh?
Guess they share that with their primarch....

In other factual news, if you take any Post-Heresy story of the primarchs seriously you are forgetting that the Imperium LIVES on Propaganda.

Vulkan even says as much during the Beast Arises.
   
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Nottingham

I'd say the notion of him being 'suckerpunched' after any length of a fight was biased. How the hell can a punch mid fight be unexpected (as in you weren't expecting them to try and hit you, not that you didn't see it coming?)

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on: Tempestus Scions/Primaris Howling Griffons

Previous projects
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 JamesY wrote:
I'd say the notion of him being 'suckerpunched' after any length of a fight was biased. How the hell can a punch mid fight be unexpected (as in you weren't expecting them to try and hit you, not that you didn't see it coming?)



And wolf fanboys always forget who threw the first sucker punch .... Russ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
Don't worry, I'm just making gak up.

"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ


Yeah he learned a lesson, as he laughed at his stupidity, the old lore even alludes to that but the Lion didn't intend to teach him a lesson, he was just defending himself.



Carry on ignoring direct quotes from the fluff that you are ignoring, while deriding others for not following you “head canon” and claiming that you are being “logical” by making empty statements and providing no evidence to back said statments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 10:53:17


   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
Don't worry, I'm just making gak up.

"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ


Yeah he learned a lesson, as he laughed at his stupidity, the old lore even alludes to that but the Lion didn't intend to teach him a lesson, he was just defending himself.


The whole military operation on Dulan was the lesson intended by Malcador, through the Lion. The fight was not supposed to be part of it. And like everyone here is telling you, the old lore is supposed to be a hyperbolic tale, so it cannot say that one of the emperor's mighty sons needed to be taught a lesson.
   
Made in gb
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard




Right Behind You

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.

The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.

To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.



What are you on about lol
If I'm understanding correctly, the idea is that the "old" lore is written from a perspective where the Primarchs were perfect and flawless, and godlike.
The current lore shows what "really" happened, warts and all.

The idea is that your old lore is outdated, because it's always been written from a third person retrospective perspective, whilst this stuff has been done from a perspective closer to the minds and time of the actual event.

Aka - your old lore is no longer a primary source.


 Formosa wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?

Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?


Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.


And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
You're the one ignoring lore.

The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.

Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?

Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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Norwich

You're the one ignoring lore.

The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.

Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?

Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.



"What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing."

"Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened"


With all due respect Sgt Smudge, I have already told him what you just said, please read the thread before accusing someone of ignoring something they have already mentioned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 12:10:38


   
Made in gb
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Right Behind You

 Formosa wrote:
You're the one ignoring lore.

The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.

Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?

Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.



"What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing."

"Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened"


With all due respect Sgt Smudge, I have already told him what you just said, please read the thread before accusing someone of ignoring something they have already mentioned.
Just repeating the point. I know you mentioned it, I agree with that - I'm just repeating and reinforcing that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 13:02:00


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
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I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.

SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.

The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Skaorn wrote:
I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.

SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.

The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odd, quotes there by reply gone

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 13:34:19


   
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Skaorn wrote:
I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.

SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.

The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.


I actually really like this explanation. It fits with the character of both primarchs.

Russ saying "he beat me bloody" doesn't mean that he meant that the Lion did it fairly or that it was entirely one sided. George Foreman beat Muhammad Ali bloody in their legendary fight, but it doesn't mean he won in the end.
   
Made in us
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w1zard wrote:
Skaorn wrote:
I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.

SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.

The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.


I actually really like this explanation. It fits with the character of both primarchs.

Russ saying "he beat me bloody" doesn't mean that he meant that the Lion did it fairly or that it was entirely one sided. George Foreman beat Muhammad Ali bloody in their legendary fight, but it doesn't mean he won in the end.


I can see where you're coming from with your reading of it. However as a Dark Angels fan the ending of the duel felt less like the Lion cheapening himself and more like him punishing him for thinking he could get away with dropping a matter of honor so quickly. Remember that in the legend version Russ is quick to anger but quick to forgive like his legion. DA are slow to anger but slow to forgive. They or their Primarch aren't going to drop an issue like that until it's completed resolved to their satisfaction and anything less is an affront to them. For that reason I don't see Lion making himself feel cheapened. I take it as him feeling like Russ is trying to cheapen him. It works well when you considering how they've kept up on the Unforgiven hunt for nearly 10k years. That's just my opinion though.

 
   
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London, Ontario

Honestly, I've never read the books. Every "quote" is pure bs on my part.
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 greatbigtree wrote:
Honestly, I've never read the books. Every "quote" is pure bs on my part.


Yeah we got that when you said “I’m just making gak up”

   
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London, Ontario

Well, yeah, but I was paraphrased by a poster above about the beat me bloody thing. So I figured I should mention it again.
   
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The novel isn't biased, what it is refreshingly honest from a main character standpoint - Russ has doubts that gnaw away at him and he's in a funk about to disappear to search for his missing brothers.

He's thinking about past mistakes rather than the future, hell, he's telling a Blood Claw, a novice Space Marine who hero worships him about his screw ups. That isn't headstrong arrogant Russ, that's Post Heresy Russ who has seen his brothers murder each other and his lord, has broken the back of one of them and seen him pulled into the warp along with several other brothers who turned traitor and has been positively useless to everyone but Fenris while Robute has run the Imperium.
Russ is a mess at the point of the novel.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
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w1zard wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.


I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.

I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.

Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.

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Fort Campbell

So let me use some of my scholarly learnings to hopefully try to break some of this down.

Sources.

Primary: A source that was there (or near enough, dependent on the time span involved).

Secondary: A scholarly evaluation of primary sources, that compiles information together. (college textbooks, historical books you find in a book store, etc)

Tertiary: Youtube, Wikipedia, etc...

GW has been writing their stories in a scale like this. The Primarch Books, and most of the regular novels, are considered to be Primary Sources. As in they are the closest to the truth that you're going to get.

Codex's, Horus Heresy Black Books, etc... they'll fall in a mix of Secondary and Tertiary source material. AKA, they aren't as reliable as the primary. Primary source always trumps the others.

The Leman Russ novel is not "bias" or anything of the sort. Is a direct telling of the event, from a person involved. Furthermore, it's the person telling a story about himself, in a negative light, which just adds even more credence to it.

Stuff from Space Wolf/Dark Angel codex's, telling of the event 10,000 years later is not Primary source material. It cannot be used to say that Leman Russ's own words are wrong.

So if your saying the Primarch novel is not acceptable, it's because you are falling victim to your own bias's. And those are the only ones involved.

1st Legion Dark Angels

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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

pm713 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.


I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.

I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.

Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.


Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times

   
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Fixture of Dakka




 Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.


I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.

I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.

Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.


Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times

Can they? Most of what I see is space wolf fans not existing much because everyone else hates on them. That reasoning is total rubbish. I can equally apply it to BA, GK, DA and IF.

Whats more half the time I've actually asked about why someone specific has so much hate it's just some borderline fanfic they got off someone else that's not even close to the lore. I don't mind people disliking a faction they have every right to. But I think it's reasonable to be annoyed by mindless hating based on misinformation.

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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

pm713 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
w1zard wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.


I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.

I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.

Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.


Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times

Can they? Most of what I see is space wolf fans not existing much because everyone else hates on them. That reasoning is total rubbish. I can equally apply it to BA, GK, DA and IF.

Whats more half the time I've actually asked about why someone specific has so much hate it's just some borderline fanfic they got off someone else that's not even close to the lore. I don't mind people disliking a faction they have every right to. But I think it's reasonable to be annoyed by mindless hating based on misinformation.



Yep same criticism can be levelled at the other chapters too, but not as badly as Santa grimnir or Wolfy mc wolf riding a wolf with wolf tail talismans and wolf claws... bleh, bloody horrible.

Then there is

Fought war with inquisition: not excomunicated
Fought war with sisters: not excomunicated
Openly refuses codex astartes: not excommunicated
Are mutants and harbour much worse mutants: not excommunicated

On and on, they get so many exceptions to the setting it makes them so dull, but not everyone thinks so which is fine.

   
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Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.

Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.

What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?

Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?

You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.

All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.

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The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.
   
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Norwich

pm713 wrote:
Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.

Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.

What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?

Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?

You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.

All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.


ok the inquisiton one is debatable.

The sisters one, really surprised you dont know about this one, its in the space wolves codex too.

yep they openly refuse something that IS law, thats why the templars have to tread a fine line and salamanders ARE codex compliant, the thing that nearly caused a second inter legion civil war, and yes the emperors choice to make them legions was decided to be wrong, by guiliman, the then regent of the imperium so his word was law.

The Blood angels are quite different as they have a curse and its handled quite differently, they dont openly show their mutations, the wolves revel in it... until it goes too far like the Wulfen.

Mutants are NOT accepted in the imperium, they are tolerated, either through necessity in the case of navigators, or them being extremely useful in the case of ratlings and ogryns, space marine chapters have been purged for less mutation that the wolves show, but they get a pass, cos space werewolf vikings!

Personally I would love a retcon that makes them more the like the heresy ones, and not the really really stupid codex version, or actually make them space vikings... anything but what we have now.

   
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare





pm713 wrote:
Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.

Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.

What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?

Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?

You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.

All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.



I also imagine the space wolves got an excemption re the codex
Cause in Wolfsbane
Spoiler:
The Space Wolves where nearly destroyed. They took 80% casualties in a direct assault on Horus



Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
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 Nova_Impero wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.


That's the case for every non fleet-based chapter. They're all independent, and they mostly don't worship the emperor as a god (apart from a few exceptions).
   
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Engrenages wrote:
 Nova_Impero wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.


That's the case for every non fleet-based chapter. They're all independent, and they mostly don't worship the emperor as a god (apart from a few exceptions).

This is true. I thought I read somewhere that they just hate Fenris specify but I might be wrong.
   
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 Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.

Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.

What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?

Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?

You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.

All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.


ok the inquisiton one is debatable.

The sisters one, really surprised you dont know about this one, its in the space wolves codex too.

yep they openly refuse something that IS law, thats why the templars have to tread a fine line and salamanders ARE codex compliant, the thing that nearly caused a second inter legion civil war, and yes the emperors choice to make them legions was decided to be wrong, by guiliman, the then regent of the imperium so his word was law.

The Blood angels are quite different as they have a curse and its handled quite differently, they dont openly show their mutations, the wolves revel in it... until it goes too far like the Wulfen.

Mutants are NOT accepted in the imperium, they are tolerated, either through necessity in the case of navigators, or them being extremely useful in the case of ratlings and ogryns, space marine chapters have been purged for less mutation that the wolves show, but they get a pass, cos space werewolf vikings!

Personally I would love a retcon that makes them more the like the heresy ones, and not the really really stupid codex version, or actually make them space vikings... anything but what we have now.

I do know it. The Ecclesiarchy started demanding to inspect Fenrisians for heresy, got told to go away, came back with a bunch of Sisters and tried to land, got shot at until they left. Pretty simple.

Salamanders are not compliant. They have a different organisation to others. The Templars don't really tread a fine line. They openly flaunt the codex. Where's the source for it being law? Girlyman forced the issue because he was willing to start another war to get his way so the others went with it to varying degrees.

Er what? What mutations do they "revel in"? The Wulfen is the mutation and that's the same scale of thing.

They are very much accepted by most people when they're at all useful. Squats, Ratlings, Ogryns, Black Dragons Navigators, Astropaths, Psykers and even clones have been accepted on loyal words. It gets ignored because usefulness. Except in the case of Space Wolves it's a unique thing somehow.

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Norwich

“The Fenris Incident. The Ecclesiarchy arrives at Fenris to investigate a claim of their worship of pagan gods. The Space Wolves orbital defenses fire upon the Ecclesiarchy vessel, chasing it away. Almost a year later, an Ecclesiarchy fleet and three Orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to land on Fenris by force. A three-week war erupts before the Ecclesiarchy decides to withdraw.”

Nope a war erupted between them.

Please explain how salamanders are not codex complient, yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex. And yes as soon as the Big E got put on the throne and Guiliman was declared regent, his word was law, he was speaking on behalf of the emperor, much like it is now he has returned, the Templars tread a fine line because they are closely allied with the Ecclesiarchy and no one really know how many of them there really are, if it was found out they were legion strength then they would be forced to become chapters or be excommunicated.

They revel in the fact that the canis helix makes them more wolf like, when said traits become too strong (wulfen) they then worry, any other chapters that mutated to such an obvious degree would likely be purged, even the blood angels worry about the red thirst being found out, not the wolves though, they wear thier mutation openly.

Accepted and tolerated are very different, even minor mutations can lead to slavery in the imperium, or worse, certain ab-humans have been ALLOWED to live because they are useful, “kill the mutant, the Xenos and the heretic” is one of the central tenants of the imperium.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/18 19:34:07


   
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pm713 wrote:

I do know it. The Ecclesiarchy started demanding to inspect Fenrisians for heresy, got told to go away, came back with a bunch of Sisters and tried to land, got shot at until they left. Pretty simple.

Salamanders are not compliant. They have a different organisation to others. The Templars don't really tread a fine line. They openly flaunt the codex. Where's the source for it being law? Girlyman forced the issue because he was willing to start another war to get his way so the others went with it to varying degrees.

Er what? What mutations do they "revel in"? The Wulfen is the mutation and that's the same scale of thing.

They are very much accepted by most people when they're at all useful. Squats, Ratlings, Ogryns, Black Dragons Navigators, Astropaths, Psykers and even clones have been accepted on loyal words. It gets ignored because usefulness. Except in the case of Space Wolves it's a unique thing somehow.


Just wanted to jump in and say that to my knowledge, the salamanders are codex compliant. The only two off of the top of my head that I know aren't codex compliant are the Space Wolves and Black Templar.
   
 
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