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 zedmeister wrote:
I wonder if changing Phosphex Canisters to AP4 single shot large blast would alleviate the problem somewhat.


Another problem I see, not so much with over powered gear, but with general army choice is the blandness in some lists. I have seen a lot of 30k armies that look a lot like this:

Praetor with Paragon Blade
Terminator Bodyguard
Spartan

2x Veteran Squads in Rhinos

Phosphex/Shatter Quad Mortars

Whirlwind Scorpius

Leviathan + Pod

Lightning

Typhon/Primarch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

Indeed. The Spartan with Praetor and bodyguard is pretty common and almost expected. I know in my area we have almost no one who uses a list like this thankfully. I mean we have a DG and IW player who do sometimes but its fluffy and makes sense.

My Luna Wolves are a fast moving company so its all jump packs, drop pods, speeders, jet bikes, and the like. I use my leviathan in my Orbital list and my few rhinos tend to move up my vets or my support squads. Because yeah I love vets and they are just too dang good to pass up. And I love my Weapon master and Tank Hunter vets, not just Marksmen.

 zedmeister wrote:
I wonder if changing Phosphex Canisters to AP4 single shot large blast would alleviate the problem somewhat.


Another problem I see, not so much with over powered gear, but with general army choice is the blandness in some lists. I have seen a lot of 30k armies that look a lot like this:

Praetor with Paragon Blade
Terminator Bodyguard
Spartan

2x Veteran Squads in Rhinos

Phosphex/Shatter Quad Mortars

Whirlwind Scorpius

Leviathan + Pod

Lightning

Typhon/Primarch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

Horus Heresy was meant to be about the guys in 3+, butsince they drop like flies to the huge number of AP3 that exists... The thought was to turn space marines into semi-horde armies, have huge armies fight each other, but the ruleset of 7th edition just favors small, elite armies of 2+ armour.

 zedmeister wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

The interview on 'warhammer tv' with Andy Hoare n Tony Cotterell about the future of 30k, they are clear on the next book that it will contain a lot of balance restoring items for the psyker unleashery of the last book.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

The interview on 'warhammer tv' with Andy Hoare n Tony Cotterell about the future of 30k, they are clear on the next book that it will contain a lot of balance restoring items for the psyker unleashery of the last book.

I got myself 3x 20 marines + medics, because I thought how 20 infiltrating marines would be fun...seems, they were just waste of points, and that there is little point in taking marines compared to veterans which are just straight superior. Take few squads of veterans and stick em in rhinos, load up on armor/quad guns/termies in spartan...gg...take lot of basic marines if you wanna lose, since they kinda die like guardsmen in 30k, yet cost almost 4x points of guardsmen, so do the math...

 smurfORnot wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

The interview on 'warhammer tv' with Andy Hoare n Tony Cotterell about the future of 30k, they are clear on the next book that it will contain a lot of balance restoring items for the psyker unleashery of the last book.

I got myself 3x 20 marines + medics, because I thought how 20 infiltrating marines would be fun...seems, they were just waste of points, and that there is little point in taking marines compared to veterans which are just straight superior. Take few squads of veterans and stick em in rhinos, load up on armor/quad guns/termies in spartan...gg...take lot of basic marines if you wanna lose, since they kinda die like guardsmen in 30k, yet cost almost 4x points of guardsmen, so do the math...

I could not disagree more. I use two squads of 20 Tactical Marines and two more squads of 10 marines in Rhinos in a Sons of Horus The Long March RoW and I win about 90% of the time vs. any RoW Pride of the Legion. As always, metas are different and missions dictate a lot about how effective an army will be.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 smurfORnot wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

The interview on 'warhammer tv' with Andy Hoare n Tony Cotterell about the future of 30k, they are clear on the next book that it will contain a lot of balance restoring items for the psyker unleashery of the last book.

I got myself 3x 20 marines + medics, because I thought how 20 infiltrating marines would be fun...seems, they were just waste of points, and that there is little point in taking marines compared to veterans which are just straight superior. Take few squads of veterans and stick em in rhinos, load up on armor/quad guns/termies in spartan...gg...take lot of basic marines if you wanna lose, since they kinda die like guardsmen in 30k, yet cost almost 4x points of guardsmen, so do the math...

I could not disagree more. I use two squads of 20 Tactical Marines and two more squads of 10 marines in Rhinos in a Sons of Horus The Long March RoW and I win about 90% of the time vs. any RoW Pride of the Legion. As always, metas are different and missions dictate a lot about how effective an army will be.

Agreed. I have seen the horde work in my local area, but it all really does depend on what you are facing. We have an Iron Hands player here who does just fine with hordes of tacticals, as does a DG player.

I will say vets are just so good they are hard to pass up. I run 16th legion rules and in either Black Reaving or Orbital Assault I use vets over tacticals when I can. They are just so lack luster minus Fury of the Legion which can be a bitch to get to work and even when it does can be pretty meh.

 zedmeister wrote:
I wonder if changing Phosphex Canisters to AP4 single shot large blast would alleviate the problem somewhat.


Another problem I see, not so much with over powered gear, but with general army choice is the blandness in some lists. I have seen a lot of 30k armies that look a lot like this:

Praetor with Paragon Blade
Terminator Bodyguard
Spartan

2x Veteran Squads in Rhinos

Phosphex/Shatter Quad Mortars

Whirlwind Scorpius

Leviathan + Pod

Lightning

Typhon/Primarch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
but I'm reliably informed the next book will provide a list of wargear to really mess with psykers as well. I think we'll see this genie put back in the bottle soon enough.

Interesting. It'd be nice to see an expansion of other legions Psyker/Anti-Psyker options.

If you change them to single large ap4 blast...ap4 basically makes them "worthless" vs marines(okay, they have merit vs guard, but everything does...), so there is kinda little point in taking consul to unlock them and paying more, when you had what, 4 small blast base with thudd gun.

Above list, mine looked most of time like that or slight variations of that depending on points(we mainly played 2.5-3k so I had more stuff). I did get some new stuff, but then group stopped with 30k because 8th came out.
Why take land rider when spartan is so much better? YOu save some point, have 2x less firepower, not to mention you are much more vulnerable to being 1 shot, while with spartan, you basically have to roll 5 times 6 with lascanon from front...

I think there's certainly 'broken' stuff in 30k, though I'm not sure about Sekhmet and ZM. Pretty much all of them aren't the individual unit, though - it's the cumulative effect of spamming a few of them:

- Primaris Lightnings with Kraken Penetrators
- Quad Mortars with Shatter Shells (or Phosphex!)
- Custodes Shield-Captains with ALL THE SAVES
- Knight armies, generally
- Warp Cult massive hordes
- Armoured Breakthrough

None of those is bad on their own, but in an army or multiplied a few times, they become at the very least un-fun to play because you either cannot counter them through gameplay or you have to have built a very specific army to do so.

One of the things I've been finding interesting is how this has become more apparent since I mostly switched to playing 40k and 8ed again. The 7ed rules are a lot more absolutist in how some units affect others, and the massive difference in rules between infantry, monsters, vehicles and superheavies mean that weapons have to be tailored to a specific target much more. So, Knights, AB and Warp Cult are armies that it becomes very hard to beat unless you've brought enough of a SPECIFIC weapon to win - and most armies won't have done this.

On the other hand, something like Primaris with Krakens (case in point: have you ever seen them armed with anything else?) can basically delete a unit of choice when they arrive, without much the opponent can do unless they heavily invest in anti-air options that may well be useless in other games.

This all-or-nothing approach (my melta squad drop pods in, your tank IS dead, now my squad WILL die) emphasises winning at the list-building stage, which adds to the perception of 'broken' armies - because the likelihood that one person has an army that cannot hurt the other's is higher.

Great post ArbitorIan.

I'm amused Krios Venators are considered broken, given that they are analogous in performance to a all lascannon Predator, and lose it all to a single weapon destroyed result.

I thought Myrmadon Destructors with the grav cannons were pretty broken, they deleted anything they shot and had plenty of shots, but now that the grav canon is nerfed into oblivion there isn't much in the mechanicum that can't be countered by marines.

That being said, small elite marine armies like primarch's chosen are easy pickings for the Mechanicum since they can focus firepower easily and take them down.

The game really just has very lethal artillery which makes large squads without transport very difficult to play. Scorpus, Arcus, Medusa, Typhon, etc all are readily available and devastating to most infantry. They probably all need a large points increase.

Same with veterans, a small points increase to offset the extra options would make running Tacticals and support squads more viable.

I think grey slayers might be intimidating due to wargear options, but the SW ROW are poor to middling, and the rules don't have much synergy, so even a pumped up unit of grey slayers is tough to get lots of use out. We don't see Slayer spam on foot using the Pale Hunter ROW for example.

TS are under costed. Units get special rules plus psychic powers for costs that undercut every other special unit in the game.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I think there's certainly 'broken' stuff in 30k, though I'm not sure about Sekhmet and ZM. Pretty much all of them aren't the individual unit, though - it's the cumulative effect of spamming a few of them:

- Primaris Lightnings with Kraken Penetrators
- Quad Mortars with Shatter Shells (or Phosphex!)
- Custodes Shield-Captains with ALL THE SAVES
- Knight armies, generally
- Warp Cult massive hordes
- Armoured Breakthrough

None of those is bad on their own, but in an army or multiplied a few times, they become at the very least un-fun to play because you either cannot counter them through gameplay or you have to have built a very specific army to do so.

One of the things I've been finding interesting is how this has become more apparent since I mostly switched to playing 40k and 8ed again. The 7ed rules are a lot more absolutist in how some units affect others, and the massive difference in rules between infantry, monsters, vehicles and superheavies mean that weapons have to be tailored to a specific target much more. So, Knights, AB and Warp Cult are armies that it becomes very hard to beat unless you've brought enough of a SPECIFIC weapon to win - and most armies won't have done this.

On the other hand, something like Primaris with Krakens (case in point: have you ever seen them armed with anything else?) can basically delete a unit of choice when they arrive, without much the opponent can do unless they heavily invest in anti-air options that may well be useless in other games.

This all-or-nothing approach (my melta squad drop pods in, your tank IS dead, now my squad WILL die) emphasises winning at the list-building stage, which adds to the perception of 'broken' armies - because the likelihood that one person has an army that cannot hurt the other's is higher.

This. Warp cults (for example) are not, in theory, broken, because if you're suggesting the crusade army list with 20-man, combat blade-and-bolter armed, quad mortar and volkite supported units cannot delete light infantry like so much chaff, I suggest you've been doing something very wrong. But did you bring enough crowd control to handle 300 of the buggers plus 30 mutant spawn? probably not....and if you did, you're buggered versus knights and astartes tank companies where those guns do absolutely nothing. And vice-versa with antitank.