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 Elbows wrote:
I believe they 100% should be considered Fast Attack, but I think a huge missed opportunity is that factions should have each received a custom detachment which would give them decent CP even while not amassing a Battalion - much in the way the Dark Eldar have that random "three patrols" thing.

This was a real missed step with the way the game is currently designed. It would have taken two extra pages per codex. Just one detachment per faction, and books such as Dark Angels could have one for green wing, one for deathwing, and one for ravenwing. These detachments could even be more specific.

The problem was that those custom detachments in each codex became so broken and unbalanced so quickly.

When GW announced the standard formations I was really hyped, but then there was so little real variation. What's needed are some specialist medium to large formations in the standard set that can be balanced in how many CPs they get, allowing anyone to build a fast-attack or elite heavy list with any codex, and have it be balanced against the standard mixed formations.

What became broken so fast? I'm talking about 8th edition, not 7th. I'm not referring to formations and all of that "get free stuff" garbage. Giving factions a small or simple custom detachment in 8th would be giving them a couple extra CP for building a thematic list. That shouldn't break anything. Again, if Dark Eldar get it (bonus CP for building a "fluffy" multi-patrol list) then why not other armies?

With the basic Battalion and Brigade generating more CP now, it wouldn't break the game if you had some special detachments which generated 3CP etc. Of course it would also add some nice flavor to the army building - but I'm not extolling free units or special sweeping changes to anything.

 Elbows wrote:
What became broken so fast? I'm talking about 8th edition, not 7th. I'm not referring to formations and all of that "get free stuff" garbage. Giving factions a small or simple custom detachment in 8th would be giving them a couple extra CP for building a thematic list. That shouldn't break anything. Again, if Dark Eldar get it (bonus CP for building a "fluffy" multi-patrol list) then why not other armies?

With the basic Battalion and Brigade generating more CP now, it wouldn't break the game if you had some special detachments which generated 3CP etc. Of course it would also add some nice flavor to the army building - but I'm not extolling free units or special sweeping changes to anything.

The point of the main rule book including so many different types of detachments is so that every faction has equal access to them, rather than Faction X getting this and Faction Y getting that.
In theory, this is a good idea. Dark Eldar getting a special way to use detachments needs to be a "one-off" edge case that does not need to continue.

The fact that Saim Hann armies can use and Outrider detachment to field all jetbikes is great, but it should cost 4 CPs for that privilege, which is essentially what is happening. If it were 3CPs that would be ok for Saim-Hann, but not so ok for the game as a whole.
You also have to factor in several other consequences of WRs being FA instead of Troops, namely in Matched play it means you can only have 3 units max and they do not get Objective secured.
With all these restrictions on WRs, there really is no point in taking them over Spears. This is very sad for players, like me, whose core has ALWAYS been Guardian Jetbikes years prior to Scatterbike spam being a thing.

But as I've said, I try to make peace with that by just slapping spears on my jetbike models and calling it a day.
My main issue is when people outright dismiss WRs as "belonging" in FA when in reality they have been designed to be Troops for over a decade. WRs and WKs are apparently being punished for the sins of 7th ed.

---------------------------------
EDIT: Counter proposal to the OP. Rather than making WRs Troops just for Saim-Hann, why not drop the points of WRs by 2-3 ppm and add a rule to Saim-Hann detachments that Outrider Detachments give 3CPs instead of 1? This would keep WRs as FA to appease the moaners, but by decreasing their points they are appealing over Spears and would not penalize Saim-hann as severely by not taking the detachment that they clearly should be taking.

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 Galef wrote:

EDIT: Counter proposal to the OP. Rather than making WRs Troops just for Saim-Hann, why not drop the points of WRs by 2-3 ppm and add a rule to Saim-Hann detachments that Outrider Detachments give 3CPs instead of 1? This would keep WRs as FA to appease the moaners, but by decreasing their points they are appealing over Spears and would not penalize Saim-hann as severely by not taking the detachment that they clearly should be taking.

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So can can Ravenwings also get 3CP per outrider as well? I mean, they are CLEARLY supposed to be all FA too. Can deathwing vanguard also get 3CP as well? I mean, after all, they're clearly supposed to be all Elite.

The bottom line is, in the words of our friends, you cant have a cake and eat it too.

 skchsan wrote:

 Galef wrote:

EDIT: Counter proposal to the OP. Rather than making WRs Troops just for Saim-Hann, why not drop the points of WRs by 2-3 ppm and add a rule to Saim-Hann detachments that Outrider Detachments give 3CPs instead of 1? This would keep WRs as FA to appease the moaners, but by decreasing their points they are appealing over Spears and would not penalize Saim-hann as severely by not taking the detachment that they clearly should be taking.

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So can can Ravenwings also get 3CP per outrider as well? I mean, they are CLEARLY supposed to be all FA too. Can deathwing vanguard also get 3CP as well? I mean, after all, they're clearly supposed to be all Elite.

The bottom line is, in the words of our friends, you cant have a cake and eat it too.

I'm sure Galef would agree to that. Hell I wanted generic Deathwing and Ravenwing HQ to unlock those dudes as troops last edition. Then again Dark Angels and Blood Angels shouldn't be separate codices. That's a different topic though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sure Galef would agree to that. Hell I wanted generic Deathwing and Ravenwing HQ to unlock those dudes as troops last edition. Then again Dark Angels and Blood Angels shouldn't be separate codices. That's a different topic though.

Exactly this is why I'm against the OP because making WR troops for Saim-Hann and no other factions armies is going to open up a HUGE can of worm.

I am on the boat for dumbing down fluff for the sake of consistency.

Edit: I seem to have misread your post slayer-fan

It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Or bias and favoritism.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Exactly my point. It wasn't an "accident" it was to show that Eldar have more jetbikes and competent riders that Marines have. Shining Spears were the "elite" Fast Attack biker.
But I did share this opinion more so when Jetbikes could only get 1 Shuricannon per 3 bikes when other Troops have limitations like this.

By giving every bike the option for a bigger gun, it has strengthened the position that WRs should be Fast, which is a shame.
If I had to chose between WRs that could only have 1 special weapon per 3 model, but were Troops, and FA WRs that can all have special weapons, I'd pick the Troop option.
But we don't have that option, so I have to be content with what we have (which ends up being fielding my preferred play-style in non-competitive games, sadly)

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 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Exactly my point. It wasn't an "accident" it was to show that Eldar have more jetbikes and competent riders that Marines have. Shining Spears were the "elite" Fast Attack biker.
But I did share this opinion more so when Jetbikes could only get 1 Shuricannon per 3 bikes when other Troops have limitations like this.

By giving every bike the option for a bigger gun, it has strengthened the position that WRs should be Fast, which is a shame.
If I had to chose between WRs that could only have 1 special weapon per 3 model, but were Troops, and FA WRs that can all have special weapons, I'd pick the Troop option.
But we don't have that option, so I have to be content with what we have (which ends up being fielding my preferred play-style in non-competitive games, sadly)

-

But why does this translate to allowing a jetbike in the troops section?

It seems like Troops are defined in the game as "fillers that don't necessarily change the course of the battle" as far as the game goes. Why does eldar get more "competent" troops just because they seemingly have more of them as per lore?

 skchsan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Or bias and favoritism.

But they were still a choice. You can't just say they shouldn't have access to Windriders as troops again because you don't like the idea. That's not up to you.

 skchsan wrote:
But why does this translate to allowing a jetbike in the troops section?

It seems like Troops are defined in the game as "fillers that don't necessarily change the course of the battle" as far as the game goes. Why does eldar get more "competent" troops just because they seemingly have more of them as per lore?

"Troops" are meant to be the most common type of rank-n-file unit that an army has access too. They should be the easiest to train and bring to bare against an enemy and are often the most numerous.
Eldar having jetbike Troops was an expression of how proficient and "better than humans" they were. It reflected both their skill and tech level above humanity.

The "mistake" was giving each model access to a Scatter laser in an addition in which stripping Hull points made you king. That is what forced them into being Fast Attack.
For balance reasons, WRs should be Fast Attack, but sadly this makes them useless compared to Shining Spears or even Vypers.
I have 12 WRs that will never be WRs in anything but the most casual of games. And I have to pick from one of 3 Troops that I am not all that fond of to take a Battalion.

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It seems odd people clinging to Jetbike Guardians being troops when they were only made that more or less by accident. Fast Attack as a slot exists for a reason. It's why Space Marine bikers are Fast Attack, and why almost every single other fast moving unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice.

I still think they missed a chance at making a fluffy bonus detachment for factions. I think a couple spare CP would not have broken the game at all. It's nothing like granting them free units or special impossibly good rules.

An accident that lasted how many years and how many codices?

Or bias and favoritism.

But they were still a choice. You can't just say they shouldn't have access to Windriders as troops again because you don't like the idea. That's not up to you.

But it's not really about what I like or dislike. My stance is purely from external balance and consistency of the game - one faction shouldn't have a FA equivalent unit as Troop choice just because of lore.

Once GW starts to make those "special snowflake" exceptions, there will be no end to it.

By that extension, Dev Squad in imperial fists army should be troop choice since they specialize in long range seige tactics, deathwing termies troops, RW bikers troops, farsight crisis troops, etc, all the meanwhile where certain faction/army doesn't have such specialization be left out on all of this 'special snowflake' 7th formation-esque treatments.

Jetbikes as a Fast Attack choice is a weird, mutated leftover from the former existence of a force org chart. In the days when troops were literally mandatory, what you could take as troops dramatically altered the look and feel of your list. Allowing Saim-Hann to take jetbikes as troops gave a Saim-Hann army the feeling of being faster but less numerous than an army with a bunch of guardians wandering around.

Formations were the first step in abandoning a mandatory, standardized force org chart in favor of something fluffier. Now, the force org chart is dead, but you can generally field a fluffy list by sacrificing easy access to CP in a given detachment for the ability to avoid taking troops entirely. Theoretically, the opportunity to get CP is sort of baked into the cost of inefficient troop units.

The issue as I see it these days is that some armies have "good" troops that also happen to be fluffy for the armies they appear in while other armies have "bad" or "unfluffy" troops. So the space marine player that gets stuck taking some tactical marines immediately starts eyeballing imperial guard for his command point needs. Meanwhile, armies with decent troops are pretty happy with their access to CP.

I guess what I'm saying is that being a "troop" doesn't really mean anything these days. Other than obsec, the only thing being a troop means is that you happen to be required for more CP-per-points efficient detachments. Which is just a weirdly roundabout way of overpaying points for "bad" (read: "inefficient") units when what you're really paying for is CP.

So maybe we should just be letting people pay points for CP, designing units to be efficient at a job regardless of whether or not they're troops, and letting people play fluffy Saimi-Hann (or whatever) armies without being at a big CP disadvantage.

But really. I'm not sure there's much harm in just upping the CP of vanguards, etc. to 3CP. Two vanguards versus two batallions would be a 4 CP difference. A batallion and vanguard versus two batallions would be a 2CP difference. That seems about right to me


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
What became broken so fast? I'm talking about 8th edition, not 7th. I'm not referring to formations and all of that "get free stuff" garbage. Giving factions a small or simple custom detachment in 8th would be giving them a couple extra CP for building a thematic list. That shouldn't break anything. Again, if Dark Eldar get it (bonus CP for building a "fluffy" multi-patrol list) then why not other armies?

With the basic Battalion and Brigade generating more CP now, it wouldn't break the game if you had some special detachments which generated 3CP etc. Of course it would also add some nice flavor to the army building - but I'm not extolling free units or special sweeping changes to anything.

Putting aside everything I just said, I think this would be really cool. Perhaps such detachments would be a good way of rewarding mono-faction armies? I.e. if all detachments in your army share the Saim-Hann keyword, you can use this flavorful variant detachment. Want to play all Iyanden? You're giving up the benefits of Alaitoc rules on your gunline elements and the ability to ally in harlequins and dark eldar, but you can take this detachment that grants 1CP per wraith unit you field. Something like that.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Allowing Saim-Hann to take jetbikes as troops gave a Saim-Hann army the feeling of being faster but less numerous than an army with a bunch of guardians wandering around.

Again, fluff is fluff - it should not be basis on which the external/internal balance of the game depends on.

Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes. Of course, some armies have better Troops selection than others, but it never steps on the toes of other specialized roles. For example, tac squad can take a heavy weapon and special weapon per 5/10 models in the unit. At no given time, are they allowed to equip 4 heavy weapons as this would begin to step on dev squad's role. If you want 4 special weapons, you buy a vet squad.

If you want guys running (or flying) around on a jetbike, you should turn to FOS other than Troops. Troops that double as a FA/Elite/Heavy will outright break the game as it is, just as formations ruined 7th ed.

The reason why you get so much CP for taking batt or brigade is because Troops are lackluster units only worth the CP it grants.

I get your wishlist - but for the sake of the little balance that exist in the game, troops need to stay as it is. And this is coming from a person with RW army as his primary army. Oh how I would LOVE 15+ CP's for only taking Outrider.

 skchsan wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Allowing Saim-Hann to take jetbikes as troops gave a Saim-Hann army the feeling of being faster but less numerous than an army with a bunch of guardians wandering around.

Again, fluff is fluff - it should not be basis on which the external/internal balance of the game depends on.

Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes. Of course, some armies have better Troops selection than others, but it never steps on the toes of other specialized roles. For example, tac squad can take a heavy weapon and special weapon per 5/10 models in the unit. At no given time, are they allowed to equip 4 heavy weapons as this would begin to step on dev squad's role. If you want 4 special weapons, you buy a vet squad.

If you want guys running (or flying) around on a jetbike, you should turn to FOS other than Troops. Troops that double as a FA/Elite/Heavy will outright break the game as it is, just as formations ruined 7th ed.

The reason why you get so much CP for taking batt or brigade is because Troops are lackluster units only worth the CP it grants.

I get your wishlist - but for the sake of the little balance that exist in the game, troops need to stay as it is. And this is coming from a person with RW army as his primary army. Oh how I would LOVE 15+ CP's for only taking Outrider.

Except it doesn't break the game just because you say it will.

What's the actual balance harm in having Windriders in the Troop slot? Dire Avengers and Rangers still have their roles and Guardians just need to be fixed. Windriders as Troops dont negate that.

 skchsan wrote:

Spoiler:

Again, fluff is fluff - it should not be basis on which the external/internal balance of the game depends on.

Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes. Of course, some armies have better Troops selection than others, but it never steps on the toes of other specialized roles. For example, tac squad can take a heavy weapon and special weapon per 5/10 models in the unit. At no given time, are they allowed to equip 4 heavy weapons as this would begin to step on dev squad's role. If you want 4 special weapons, you buy a vet squad.

If you want guys running (or flying) around on a jetbike, you should turn to FOS other than Troops. Troops that double as a FA/Elite/Heavy will outright break the game as it is, just as formations ruined 7th ed.

The reason why you get so much CP for taking batt or brigade is because Troops are lackluster units only worth the CP it grants.

I get your wishlist - but for the sake of the little balance that exist in the game, troops need to stay as it is. And this is coming from a person with RW army as his primary army. Oh how I would LOVE 15+ CP's for only taking Outrider

.

I can agree with you from a balance standpoint (only because GW made the mistake of giving them all special weapons), but I adamantly disagree that fluff shouldn't dictate some rules. There are some wildrider clans within Saim-Hann that are 100% mounted armies. Their "rank-n-file" cannon fodder ARE their Jetbike. they have no infantry at all.
The issue was when GW released the newest plastic WRs and wanted every bike to be able to take a special weapon. THAT is what pushed them into not being "Troop" material.
If WRs could only take twin Shuricats, they would still fit your criteria of "lack-luster cannon fodder"

Side note, Eldar are not supposed to have "cannon fodder" at all. #Eldarlivesmatter
And BTW, Grey Knights still have Terminators as Troops. Do you think they should be Elites? Cuz that would suck for GKs, which are already considered the worst army in 8th.

By taking WRs as my "core" I am already losing "objective secured" It'd be nice not to also have to "pay" 4CPs for the privilege. A better fix would be for Battalions to drop down to 4CPs, and Outrider/Spearhead/Vangaurds to go up to 2 or 3.

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 Galef wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Spoiler:

Again, fluff is fluff - it should not be basis on which the external/internal balance of the game depends on.

Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes. Of course, some armies have better Troops selection than others, but it never steps on the toes of other specialized roles. For example, tac squad can take a heavy weapon and special weapon per 5/10 models in the unit. At no given time, are they allowed to equip 4 heavy weapons as this would begin to step on dev squad's role. If you want 4 special weapons, you buy a vet squad.

If you want guys running (or flying) around on a jetbike, you should turn to FOS other than Troops. Troops that double as a FA/Elite/Heavy will outright break the game as it is, just as formations ruined 7th ed.

The reason why you get so much CP for taking batt or brigade is because Troops are lackluster units only worth the CP it grants.

I get your wishlist - but for the sake of the little balance that exist in the game, troops need to stay as it is. And this is coming from a person with RW army as his primary army. Oh how I would LOVE 15+ CP's for only taking Outrider

.

I can agree with you from a balance standpoint (only because GW made the mistake of giving them all special weapons), but I adamantly disagree that fluff shouldn't dictate some rules. There are some wildrider clans within Saim-Hann that are 100% mounted armies. Their "rank-n-file" cannon fodder ARE their Jetbike. they have no infantry at all.
The issue was when GW released the newest plastic WRs and wanted every bike to be able to take a special weapon. THAT is what pushed them into not being "Troop" material.
If WRs could only take twin Shuricats, they would still fit your criteria of "lack-luster cannon fodder"

Side note, Eldar are not supposed to have "cannon fodder" at all. #Eldarlivesmatter
And BTW, Grey Knights still have Terminators as Troops. Do you think they should be Elites? Cuz that would suck for GKs, which are already considered the worst army in 8th.

By taking WRs as my "core" I am already losing "objective secured" It'd be nice not to also have to "pay" 4CPs for the privilege. A better fix would be for Battalions to drop down to 4CPs, and Outrider/Spearhead/Vangaurds to go up to 2 or 3.

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The problem wuth dropping battalion CP down is it goes against what GW has been trying to do to reduce the diffrence between the armies with cheap spamable troops and those without.

Also adding CP to spearheads etc just makes hard skew lists more viable and that's not what most people want after the broken mess of 7th formations.

Also your capped at 3 units of shining spears, wind riders do have a place its called I have taken 3 units of spears and still want jet bikes.

Also if you give extra CP to outrider people won't take windriders they just take an all shining spear outrider detachment anyway.

The only way to make it work would be along the same lines as the imperial knights codex.

Sham Him outrider detachment containing 3 units of wind riders changes the command benifit from +1CP to +3CP.

Yeah, rather than putting Battalions to 4CP, the specialist detachments should give 2CP instead.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Allowing Saim-Hann to take jetbikes as troops gave a Saim-Hann army the feeling of being faster but less numerous than an army with a bunch of guardians wandering around.

Again, fluff is fluff - it should not be basis on which the external/internal balance of the game depends on.

Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes. Of course, some armies have better Troops selection than others, but it never steps on the toes of other specialized roles. For example, tac squad can take a heavy weapon and special weapon per 5/10 models in the unit. At no given time, are they allowed to equip 4 heavy weapons as this would begin to step on dev squad's role. If you want 4 special weapons, you buy a vet squad.

If you want guys running (or flying) around on a jetbike, you should turn to FOS other than Troops. Troops that double as a FA/Elite/Heavy will outright break the game as it is, just as formations ruined 7th ed.

The reason why you get so much CP for taking batt or brigade is because Troops are lackluster units only worth the CP it grants.

I get your wishlist - but for the sake of the little balance that exist in the game, troops need to stay as it is. And this is coming from a person with RW army as his primary army. Oh how I would LOVE 15+ CP's for only taking Outrider.

Except it doesn't break the game just because you say it will.

What's the actual balance harm in having Windriders in the Troop slot? Dire Avengers and Rangers still have their roles and Guardians just need to be fixed. Windriders as Troops dont negate that.

I'm not really arguing for moving windriders back to the troops slot so much as I'm suggesting that being a "troop" doesn't actually mean anything and that the leftover assumptions about what a "troop" is might actually be leading to problematic design decisions. Currently, the assumption of what a "troop" should be seems to be that, "Troops are the basic rank-and-file cannon fodders as far as the game goes," as you say. But that's kind of slipping back into using fluff as a justification for rules. As Galef points out, no eldar is really meant to be a bullet catcher. Guardian lives are precious and to be spent as a last resort. Rangers go to great lengths to not be hit in the first place. From a rulesperspective, neither guardians nor rangers are expendable bullet catchers the way guardsmen are. If the low points cost for a guardsman is what makes guardsmen "troops," then guardians and rangers feel like they shouldn't be in the troops category. As Galef has also pointed out, some armies, such as GK, don't really have cheap units at all. From both a lore and rules perspective, GK (and their pointy-eared cousins the harlequins) don't have any units expendable/cheap enough to really qualify as "cannon fodder."

So using the description you yourself provided, the argument could be made that some armies really don't have "troops" at all. In the same way that we understand the FA slot to be intended for mobile units, we understand troop slots to be intended for cheap and numerous units. I'd propose that a tactical marine or GK terminator (or a windrider) therefor makes about as much sense in the troops slot as a dreadnaught would in the FA slot.

Which brings us back to the idea that part of being a troop is being inefficient in terms of ability but that essentially being an overpriced unit is somewhat compensated for by the CP they unlock when taken in a batallion or brigade. At which point, I suggest we skip the awkwardness of having overpriced troops and instead simply allow players to pay X points for a command point. Instead of taking tactical marines when you really want sternguard or devastators just to get the CP, take the devs and sternguard instead and simply buy the CP with points. A devastator hypothetically has X value per point. A tactical marine has Y value per point where Y is less than X. So let's just figure out the value of X-Y and go from there to determine how much you're theoretically paying for CP. The intended end result would be that Saim-Hann (or whatever) armies wouldn't feel compelled to field things like guardians or rangers just so they can participate in the happy fun time adventure that is stratagems, but the points spent on CP would mean that they aren't fielding all big guns with no downside. In this scenario, you'd also want to redesign the "bad" troops that only exist to fill mandatory slots/unlock CP to actually be useful and desirable in their own right.

So if 4 of the points on a tac marine's pricetag represent "tax" you pay for unlocking CP (i.e. they're only worth 8 points apiece instead of 12 or whatever), and it takes 3 squads of 10 tacs to get 5 CP in a batallion, let's just let the Raven Wing player spend 24 points (4 * 30 = 120; 120/5 = 24) to buy CP instead of being required to field tactical marines in an RW-themed army. You're still spending the same points on CP that you were originally (although obviously we can disagree on the cost of a CP), but you don't have to break your army's theme. Then, either lower the cost of "bad troops" or increase their performance to make them more desirable on their own merit.

Basically, I'm advocating divorcing troops from CP generation. Troops as CP generators isn't the worst idea, but it punishes those armies whose themes or troop usefulness discourage them from taking a lot of troops. Instead of a marine player taking 200 points of guard to get bonus CP, let him field tacitcals or not according to his fluff/play style and then spend the same number of points on CP his guard friend would.

Another option might be to give Saim-Hann detachments "Objective Secured" to Windrider units. It wouldn't impact the CP situation at all, but might encourage some players to take Windriders in Outrider detachments, instead of just Shining Spears.

Or yet another option is to drop the points for Windriders dramatically. Not being Troops, only having a 4+ armour (which I do like about them) makes them a very hard pick over Spears or even Vypers.
If you drop them to >15ppm (so >20ppm with TwinCats or >25ppm with either special weapon) might, MIGHT make them a decent choice over their competition

The issue is that Windriders have been a CORE choice for over a decade, and can no longer be so because they are being punished for being OP in 7th.
Taking them in Outrider detachments is NOT adequate compensation.

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 Galef wrote:

The issue is that Windriders have been a CORE choice for over a decade, and can no longer be so because they are being punished for being OP in 7th.
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And we have a winner!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

The issue is that Windriders have been a CORE choice for over a decade, and can no longer be so because they are being punished for being OP in 7th.
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And we have a winner!

And it shouldn't be that way. The WK is in the same boat.
What GW could have and should have done is make 2 Windrider datasheets (just like with Black Guardians Windriders at the end of 7th):
1 Troop Windrider unit that can only take 1 special weapon per 3 models (or even just TwinCats with no option for special weapons).
1 Elite or Fast Attack option for Black Guardian Windriders that can have all the special weapons, and maybe has in-built Webway drop and is more expensive for it.

That would solve both problems. GW could still have the kit that includes special weapons for each bike, but the rules would allow an option for a less effective unit filling the Troop requirements for detachments that need Troops.
Everyone wins.

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 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

The issue is that Windriders have been a CORE choice for over a decade, and can no longer be so because they are being punished for being OP in 7th.
-

And we have a winner!

And it shouldn't be that way. The WK is in the same boat.
What GW could have and should have done is make 2 Windrider datasheets (just like with Black Guardians Windriders at the end of 7th):
1 Troop Windrider unit that can only take 1 special weapon per 3 models (or even just TwinCats with no option for special weapons).
1 Elite or Fast Attack option for Black Guardian Windriders that can have all the special weapons, and maybe has in-built Webway drop and is more expensive for it.

That would solve both problems. GW could still have the kit that includes special weapons for each bike, but the rules would allow an option for a less effective unit filling the Troop requirements for detachments that need Troops.
Everyone wins.

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No Eldar players win everyone else who doesn't have 16 inch move obsec troops gets rofl stomped. Making jetbikes troops was only remotely balanced when everyone else could likewise take bikers or other such nonsence as obsec troops.

They are back where they always should have been troops should be just that basic infantry not the fastest unit with additional shooting and resilience.
This is reminiscent of Tau players complaining that they can't take crisis suits as troops in 8th edition.

It is good you can't do it in 8th edition because you shouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.

GW has taken the opportunity that the complete reboot of the ruleset that is 8th edition mechanics to correct the mistakes of the past. Just because you used to be able to do it doesn't mean still allowing it was the right decision for game balance.

Ice_can wrote:
They are back where they always should have been troops should be just that basic infantry not the fastest unit with additional shooting and resilience.
This is reminiscent of Tau players complaining that they can't take crisis suits as troops in 8th edition.

It is good you can't do it in 8th edition because you shouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.

GW has taken the opportunity that the complete reboot of the ruleset that is 8th edition mechanics to correct the mistakes of the past. Just because you used to be able to do it doesn't mean still allowing it was the right decision for game balance.

I cannot disagree with you more. I played in 4th & 5th edition prior to Windriders getting access to special weapons on every bike. They were not a "competitive" choice then, merely one of the 2 options that didn't suck.
6th & 7th was when the issues started and it wasn't because they were Troops, it's because they were Troops that could all carry special weapons.

No one was complaining about them as Troops until then.
This is a science fantasy based game. Infantry shouldn't be the only valid Troop option.
I'd be ok with "Objective Secured" only applying to Infantry if I meant I didn't HAVE to take Rangers, Guardians or Dire Avengers as a mandatory choice.
Those are all fine choice, but they aren't Jetbikes, the unit that was the deciding factoring in choosing Eldar a decade ago for me.

Make them 30ppm, deny them OS, remove their special weapons. I'd still take them as a Troop choice. Because that is the play-style I want

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 Galef wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
They are back where they always should have been troops should be just that basic infantry not the fastest unit with additional shooting and resilience.
This is reminiscent of Tau players complaining that they can't take crisis suits as troops in 8th edition.

It is good you can't do it in 8th edition because you shouldn't have been able to do it in the first place.

GW has taken the opportunity that the complete reboot of the ruleset that is 8th edition mechanics to correct the mistakes of the past. Just because you used to be able to do it doesn't mean still allowing it was the right decision for game balance.

I cannot disagree with you more. I played in 4th & 5th edition prior to Windriders getting access to special weapons on every bike. They were not a "competitive" choice then, merely one of the 2 options that didn't suck.
6th & 7th was when the issues started and it wasn't because they were Troops, it's because they were Troops that could all carry special weapons.

No one was complaining about them as Troops until then.
This is a science fantasy based game. Infantry shouldn't be the only valid Troop option.

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They were only used in 6th as a potential last minute objective grabber and then we had the mess of 7th.

Now the Scatterlaser took a hit, their armor went down to 4+ (which was an often suggested fix in 7th) AND they took a hit by being moved to a different FOC slot. It was too much. Dont make the unit entry pay because of the dumpster fire known as 7th Edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now the Scatterlaser took a hit, their armor went down to 4+ (which was an often suggested fix in 7th) AND they took a hit by being moved to a different FOC slot. It was too much. Dont make the unit entry pay because of the dumpster fire known as 7th Edition.

Thank you. I do still think that a Troop with all special weapons is a bit much, but that could be an easy fix by dropping it back to 1 per 3. With all the nerfs they took coming into 8th, there is no legitimate reason they shouldn't still be Troops (aside from some silly notion that only Infantry should be Troops)

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Nothing is currently stopping you running an all jetbike army under the current rules.
Yes you get less CP but that is GW's attempt to balance the advantage you have in objectives by having such a mobile force.
Yes some units are still being overcosted for their sins in 7th edition but that doesn't mean they should go back to being troops.

Ice_can wrote:
Nothing is currently stopping you running an all jetbike army under the current rules.
Yes you get less CP but that is GW's attempt to balance the advantage you have in objectives by having such a mobile force.
Yes some units are still being overcosted for their sins in 7th edition but that doesn't mean they should go back to being troops.

That's fair. At this point I agree that WRs should not be Troops, but as I've said, it's b/c of their access to weapons, not b/c of their mobility.
Troops with superior mobility can and do exist. Making Troops an "infantry only club" is not an idea I like, regardless of how balanced it can be in theory. There are other ways to balance.