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the_scotsman wrote:
Early rumors circled around a Speed Freeks supplement. Now that would be a good ork update. Of the three big broad categories of ork armies, the whole "Green Tide infantry focused" armies seem to see the most rules support, the "big klanky walker mechs and techno gizmos" get the most model support, and we really need an update for "Crazy Mad Max mechanized hooligans" type of army.

Conceptually I'd agree - but I struggle to see GW making such an army without a proper release cycle (i.e. 3-5 kits, 2-3 characters).
If new Gorkamorka is a thing then its obviously an opportunity as they can release new trakks, buggies & new stuff.

I just struggle to believe it will happen.

the_scotsman wrote:
God damn I hope not. The last thing that current ork fluff needs is more overemphasis on Ghazghkull Uber Alles. How many special characters are we down to that aren't in Ghazzy's little clique? Just badrukk now?

What is it about folks and any time a long-neglected faction gets its time in the limelight going "Hey you know what we should focus on? the Ultramarines equivalent of this faction, who already have tons of rules support for their named characters!"

Early rumors circled around a Speed Freeks supplement. Now that would be a good ork update. Of the three big broad categories of ork armies, the whole "Green Tide infantry focused" armies seem to see the most rules support, the "big klanky walker mechs and techno gizmos" get the most model support, and we really need an update for "Crazy Mad Max mechanized hooligans" type of army.

Nob/Character bikers, Buggies, Trakks, and Deffkoptas are the models in the ork range most in need of an update after all.

proably because Ghazakul is the intreasting story for the Orks right now

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
God damn I hope not. The last thing that current ork fluff needs is more overemphasis on Ghazghkull Uber Alles. How many special characters are we down to that aren't in Ghazzy's little clique? Just badrukk now?

What is it about folks and any time a long-neglected faction gets its time in the limelight going "Hey you know what we should focus on? the Ultramarines equivalent of this faction, who already have tons of rules support for their named characters!"

Early rumors circled around a Speed Freeks supplement. Now that would be a good ork update. Of the three big broad categories of ork armies, the whole "Green Tide infantry focused" armies seem to see the most rules support, the "big klanky walker mechs and techno gizmos" get the most model support, and we really need an update for "Crazy Mad Max mechanized hooligans" type of army.

Nob/Character bikers, Buggies, Trakks, and Deffkoptas are the models in the ork range most in need of an update after all.

proably because Ghazakul is the intreasting story for the Orks right now

Which is unfortunate because in 4th ed. there were a bunch of Ork characters that had their own flavour not tied to Ghazzy's WAAAGH! I mean Abbadon is curiously missing from any real major actions after the Great Rift and its mainly the Daemon Primarchs that have been getting more of the limelight. Similarly, I feel there should be more plot threads to Orks than just Ghazzy, with Wazzdakka finishing building his interstellar tellyporta highway across the galaxy for his WAAAGH!, more exploits from Ol' Zogwort and Nazdreg. I know Badrukk recently had a fluff blurb about him hunting a void whale ala Moby Dick. I understand Ghazzy's role in being the preeminent threat as the unifying end game factor for Orks, but its silly to get tunnel vision as that being the only story worth telling for Orks.

True. Would like to see more fluff on other orks, sure, but 200 yrs have passed since Ghazzy cleaned Octaria of Nids with another tendril coming. He wasn't planning on staying once the fighting became perpetual like the ongoing war on Armageddon. His plans was to go start up another unlimited war of attrition. It's been 200 yrs so his story has to be told whether others get some spotlight or not.

Thr time line of 40k confuses me especially as old player who is like nearly 500 years behind on the story supposedly. Like Primaris marines... I swear they came out only a year ago but apparently they have been in the lore now since 30k and fought along side current marines for hundred of years. When did that happen?

Primaris marines are regular marines that Cawl has "found" over the years and improved them to primaris marines. He has been at that project for a long time, so he picked up a couple of subjects which were ancient themselves. Keep in mind that marines do not die of old age.

The ones that have fought in the Heresy were just regular astartes back then, Primaris marines have not seen the light of day before Guilliman returned.

 lolman1c wrote:
Thr time line of 40k confuses me especially as old player who is like nearly 500 supposedly. Like Primaris marines... I swear they came out only a year ago but apparently they have been in the lore now since 30k and fought along side current marines for hundred of years. When did that happen?

This will join a list of many many things that will just get changed over time. This is their IP and they can change it if they want.

The real problem GW has with orks is the longstanding impact of the AOBR boxed set. It was such a good deal for non ork players that there are so many orks floating around in the second hand market they struggle to make new sales. If GW can't make money off a faction then the faction is in trouble. If they can't sell 200 old ork models to new players then they will have to find new models to tempt old players and new and they will change the fluff as much as they want to justify the sales.

Hence Primaris is a thing and the new fluff about waagh is probably also a change to justify new models.

I too miss the old days when ork fluff was just spores and fungus and mythical brainboyz.

I just want an ork army that has strategic and tactical depth to play and not be so mono-dimensional any more fluff be damned

 Nithaniel wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Thr time line of 40k confuses me especially as old player who is like nearly 500 supposedly. Like Primaris marines... I swear they came out only a year ago but apparently they have been in the lore now since 30k and fought along side current marines for hundred of years. When did that happen?

This will join a list of many many things that will just get changed over time. This is their IP and they can change it if they want.

The real problem GW has with orks is the longstanding impact of the AOBR boxed set. It was such a good deal for non ork players that there are so many orks floating around in the second hand market they struggle to make new sales. If GW can't make money off a faction then the faction is in trouble. If they can't sell 200 old ork models to new players then they will have to find new models to tempt old players and new and they will change the fluff as much as they want to justify the sales.

Hence Primaris is a thing and the new fluff about waagh is probably also a change to justify new models.

I too miss the old days when ork fluff was just spores and fungus and mythical brainboyz.

I just want an ork army that has strategic and tactical depth to play and not be so mono-dimensional any more fluff be damned

I don't know, all they need to do is make the other units more attractive, add in some new Speed and boom! People buy an entire vehicle army. As for the boyz... never thought about that but I hardly ever buy from gw and always buy from ebay. XD 20 orks for £10 is a steal!

My brother converted the AOS Megaboss from the Maw-krusha kit into Ghazghull. And it looks pretty cool.

I’m with the fella early doors. Go back to 1st edition fluff. Forget all this beast none sense. Nothing sillier than a giant ORK. I will hate it if the make Primaris ORKS. I’d rather see gargants and goat bomber planes dropping storm boys as centre pieces rather than an inquisitor scale ORK warboss. Hopeful the codex will be good and allow fluffy armies and not upset the “competitive” crowd too much.

What I really want to see is an end to the kult of speed being treated like a clan. That grinds my gears. No more “speed freak” armies. Stick to the six clams and have the kult where it belongs. The fact that gorkamorka is being rumoured is very exciting, might get some new buggies and tracks.

I think every army has sufficiently proven that a well-rounded and fun codex makes people constantly buy more models, without needing to bait the players into buying the new hot thing.

When 8th dropped and previews suggested that deff dreads would be able to finally reach combat, they completely sold out in my area. Three GW stores and six FLGS wouldn't have a single one left on their shelves.
The don't need new models to get ork players buying. I doubt most players have more than one unit of most more choices.

For my DG I struggle to decide what to buy, since almost everything is viable in the context of my playing group. For orks, it's pretty much boyz, tank bustas or mek guns, everything else is a waste of money - even though I would love to have a morkanaut and wazzdakka blastajet to provide my BW army with KFFs, I know they are just a disappointing waste of money.

Honestly, I only buy from ebay because I feel GW was ripping me off for many years with the rule books that were crap. I'd most likely buy from them again if they made me feel like I could trust them with my money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember, the ork starter set doesn't even contain a HQ... just let that settle in.

 lolman1c wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I can kinda see the beef with Primeorks but I feel that the Beast Arises series turned Orks from a joke to a credible threat. Our little race killed/forced a Primarch to sacrifice himself and utterly wiped out one of the most well known Chapters of SM except for literally one dude. We had emissaries on Terra, trying to arrange a surrender ffs! Carnage!...snip....del releases. I think we deserve some new models for waiting so long. I see no reason they'd delay our codex otherwise. As long as they aren't terrain features (looking at you webway portal), I'll be ecstatic.

At what cost though? Sure, Orks become scary but there needs to be that fine balance and too me this kinda just smells like GW is ironing out the funny side of Orks for this Grim Daek look. The Beast books were basically just imperial propaganda! Outside of the descriptions of the Orks they had no character! I don't even remember their names! I have said this a billion times but i love ghaz because I have read his back story. I know how he has fought his way up, I know his goals, is pain, his loses, what's at risk if he loses! I know all this and I cheer for him! The Beasts are just very large Orks with no personality. I don't see the difference between a Prime Ork and an Orc from LoTR. I didn't feel the need to support the beats because I didn't know them other than their faction.

At no cost man. We've already established that GW can make Orks a comedy relief faction. They've done it for ages. Making us a credible threat does not necessarily make us any less funny, at least to the Ork player.

The Orks in the Beast books had a ton of character, they are literally responsible for the 40k clans. The books didn't focus on a particular Ork character (outside of the elusive Beast and his lieutenants) because, surprise surprise, they were told from the perspective of Imperials.

I don't get your complaint, if Ghazz is promoted to a "Primeork" it's not like all the lore you love about him is lost, it's simply the next step on his journey. The Beasts are a hell of a lot more than 'just big orks'. Have you read the books?

You ask me that question every time I don't agree with you. But, for the hundredth time, yes I have and it wasn't for me.

Let me copy paste a response from the past:


I see what you're saying, but it was a conscious decision by the BL team to be entirely from the Imperiums' perspective. We never even found out the Beast's name, or where he came from, or what trials he had to endure, what made him rise to the size he was rather than "just" warboss size. Ultimately, most people that bought The Beast series were either ork centred or at least invested in ork kultur. If I wanted to read about the imperium struggling against a faceless group of space monsters who sometimes displayed surprising tactics, I would read about them fighting tyranids.

Don't get me wrong, it was a worthwhile read and I did enjoy bits of it, it just felt like a missed opportunity and some hints about where they may take orks in 40k are potentially a bit worrying for me as an ork player who is much more interested in fluff than game mechanics.


In terms of the whole " the lore is still there" let me, again, copy and paste my previous answer to this:

I really hate this line of argument. It would be like me at an Art job doing terrible and saying to my boss "well I did good work in the past". Sure... my art in the past is still enjoyable to look at but i'm wasting my potential by being lazy and not producing new good art (I might as well not do anything at all and save the company money rather than waste their payment to make crap). In addition, everyone has already seen the art and want something new.

It's like when someone remakes something like the Ghostbusters. Sure, the orginal is great and is always still there but it doesn't excuse how terribly made the remake was. They had all that money and they wasted it when they could have created something special like the first film and given both new and old fans something amazing. It is possible... look at the new God of War game (still haven't finished so no spoilers). I'm a mega GoW fan and, despite this game being almost completely different and a remake, it's an amazing none wasted experience so far that delights hardcore fans, give us new feelings and also attracts people who never played the last games. Sure, I can go back and play the orginal trilogy (and I do every year) but due to the great amount of effort the developers put into this game I know before it has even finished that I have a new game to add to that collection I replay every year.

 lolman1c wrote:
You ask me that question every time I don't agree with you. But, for the hundredth time, yes I have and it wasn't for me.

Let me copy paste a response from the past:

I see what you're saying, but it was a conscious decision by the BL team to be entirely from the Imperiums' perspective. We never even found out the Beast's name, or where he came from, or what trials he had to endure, what made him rise to the size he was rather than "just" warboss size. Ultimately, most people that bought The Beast series were either ork centred or at least invested in ork kultur. If I wanted to read about the imperium struggling against a faceless group of space monsters who sometimes displayed surprising tactics, I would read about them fighting tyranids.

Don't get me wrong, it was a worthwhile read and I did enjoy bits of it, it just felt like a missed opportunity and some hints about where they may take orks in 40k are potentially a bit worrying for me as an ork player who is much more interested in fluff than game mechanics.

Erm, OK, that's nice to know but this is my third post in this thread and I don't believe I've ever spoken to you about the Beast Arises series before, so I'm not sure why you're getting so touchy regarding me asking if you've read the thing. It doesn't seem like you have. We learn his name, isn't it "Slaughter"? Hence the "I am Slaughter" first book title?

As for what trials he had to overcome, what do you think Ork trials generally consist of? They could range to anything from mad max style death races, to headbutting competitions, to eating contests, to just plain killing. We've seen all these before.

Finally, why on earth would you be worried about "where they may take orks in 40k"? It couldn't get much worse than the comedic, faceless muppets we have been for the past few editions.

 lolman1c wrote:
In terms of the whole " the lore is still there" let me, again, copy and paste my previous answer to this:

I really hate this line of argument. It would be like me at an Art job doing terrible and saying to my boss "well I did good work in the past". Sure... my art in the past is still enjoyable to look at but i'm wasting my potential by being lazy and not producing new good art (I might as well not do anything at all and save the company money rather than waste their payment to make crap). In addition, everyone has already seen the art and want something new.......snip......

Not really? It's more like an artist that you previously liked doing something new that you weren't keen on. Well I'm sorry it's not to your specific tastes, but I much prefer it over the same old thing rehashed ad infinitum, which is exactly what's happened in previous editions. 'Let's talk about that time Ghazzy attacked Armageddon AGAIN, that'll keep the fans interested'.

I have to be honest I find your stance really, really bizarre. Fair enough change can be scary and we all love(d) 'old' Ghazzy. But things move on. The old fluff that you love is still there and if the new stuff offends you so much, don't read it or engage with it? IF we get a new Ghazzy model and he's all beefed up Primeork status, just convince yourself in your head-canon that Ghazzy had a growth spurt and be thankful we've got a new model.

There's nothing new about orks getting bigger the more they fight and succeed. The fluff validating primorks has been established alot longer then primaris marines.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
There's nothing new about orks getting bigger the more they fight and succeed. The fluff validating primorks has been established alot longer then primaris marines.

Not really, we know orks get bigger but to be the size of a stompa is unheard of and over emphasises on one aspect of Orks. It would be if like if you had a bowl of M&Ns and removed all the colours so the bowl is just blue M&Ns and then said that all M&Ns everywhere are blue.

As for English's reply, I'm pretty sure in other threads when ever I express my dislike for the Beast series you always ask why and if i have ever read it. Sorry if i have mistaken you for someone else... Anyway, this isn't about change. I love change and right now I want orks to change but I have little faith in the simplistic narratives modern GW publish in order to generate as much general interest as possible. The old lore was no LoTR but it was imaginative. Making Orks bigger is not Imaginative and is just there to make the nerds get hard over the idea of a big monster.

As for the trials... I now feel you haven't read Ghaz back story but I won't accuse you of that. Without a proper back story and struggles there is no way we can connect to character. I feel nothing for the beasts because to me they're just faceless monster who might as well have just came out of a cave. They're like the trolls in a general fantasy book, just background characters that are there to be killed. Ghaz, on the other hand, is a main character. You followed his journey, felt his struggles, related to the character (it's basic stiry telling stuff) and i want him to win! He isn't just a God who came out of nowhere, he feels like he earned his position and this makes him a remarkably strong character who, in a way, is more human then the majority of Space Marine characters who just win the day by tripping over buttons. By making Ghaz a prime ork you are dooming him to the same fate as the Beasts... another big monster to be squished rather than a fleshed out character in the 40k lore... that is unless they write an amazing back story of the events it took to be a prime ork. But I have little faith in the writers to make something worthy of someone like ghaz without just making him a monster again.

I can see the writers of black library now sat around a table with their feet on the desk... "Hey dave, we forgot to write a back story to all our characters" "Yeah, don't worry about that, people will just read it anyway" "But Dave, isn't having a back story basic story telling?" "We're writing about Orks here.... we don't want people to actually like them! Hell wy do you think we're doing this from an imperial view point? "

Reference: read Frankenstein. A monster can be a main likeble character who you cheer for while the actual main character, Dr. Frankenstein, can be a monster.

No part of the fluff ever mentioned the limits of their growth. That limitation is put in your head by yourself. Ghazzy was only a normal sized boy and in only 50 some years he became the size of a dreadnought and much bigger then the average warboss. You feel this is OK because you read some pretty paragraphs about him. Fast forward 200 yrs and he's.much bigger. You find this wrong? Even if there is pretty paragraphs to read? Seems pretty weak of a stance. The beast wasn't the first massive ork the Imperium met either. Big E almost got killed by one during the Ulanor crusade. Only thing The Beast got different was an entire book series with him as the antagonist. Ghazzy hasn't even gotten it yet. It wasn't suddenly OMG orks get bigger!?! More like OMG Geedubs gave one the spotlight and now we have more then a pretty paragraph or two about it.

 lolman1c wrote:
Making Orks bigger is not Imaginative and is just there to make the nerds get hard over the idea of a big monster.

This is what I don't get and why I assume you haven't read the books. The "bigger" part is the least important and impressive aspect of the Beast Orks. By far the scariest thing about them, is their increased intelligence and technical capability. Attack Moonz that can literally appear as an Ork face and talk?! Interstellar, instantaneous teleportation of celestial bodies?! Wide-scale planetary destruction? Weapons capable of destroying a Sun?! Not to mention all the tactics the Beast Orks employ, that completely catch multiple Imperial Commanders off guard and ultimately lead them to be screwed time and time again. Feinting, attacking critical leadership positions, hiding the true nature of the threat they possess? I loved all that! It might not be "classical" Orky, but it just shows the unlimited potential the Orks possess.

 lolman1c wrote:
As for the trials... I now feel you haven't read Ghaz back story but I won't accuse you of that. Without a proper back story and struggles there is no way we can connect to character. I feel nothing for the beasts because to me they're just faceless monster who might as well have just came out of a cave. They're like the trolls in a general fantasy book, just background characters that are there to be killed. Ghaz, on the other hand, is a main character. You followed his journey, felt his struggles, related to the character (it's basic stiry telling stuff) and i want him to win! He isn't just a God who came out of nowhere, he feels like he earned his position and this makes him a remarkably strong character who, in a way, is more human then the majority of Space Marine characters who just win the day by tripping over buttons. By making Ghaz a prime ork you are dooming him to the same fate as the Beasts... another big monster to be squished rather than a fleshed out character in the 40k lore... that is unless they write an amazing back story of the events it took to be a prime ork. But I have little faith in the writers to make something worthy of someone like ghaz without just making him a monster again.

What does this mean?! I get why this position might put you off the Beast(s) Orks (who did just kinda pop outta nowhere all gigantic-like) but like I said, Ghaz already has a backstory that is pretty well fleshed out. I feel like you think if he gets to this "Primeork/Beastork" whatever status GW are going to rewrite all of his old fluff. No man. No way. They aren't daft and they don't like hard work. They'll keep all of that and this will ADD TO IT. Don't you think this ex-Goff Boy, who's been through all the struggles you mention, who has developed as a character, now deserves to be a fething epic boss of badass proportions? He's worked for this gak dude. Grafted. Hard. Our Ghazzy should be the biggest and best Ork around by now because he's a workhorse and he deserves it. I mean we're kinda forgetting all the deus-ex-machingork that happened, repeatedly during his story (convenient teleport away from Yarrick when he was screwed) but still, he deserves it. I said it earlier but I'll say it again, The Beast wasn't just a big nasty monster to be squished, he was the most intelligent, cunning, technologically advanced Ork of his era and his WAAAAGGHH!!! followed suit. The defining part of Ghazzy, for me anyway (apart from the Prophet of da WAAAGHHH! stuff) is his intelligence. He's not your typical, ignoramus warboss just throwing numbers at the enemy. This is the same with the Beast. He put Orks on Terra like it was nothing! Nothing! To negotiate terms of surrender no less, because it was so incredibly obvious that the Imperium was screwed. Where was the God-Emperor then?! That's more than Horus, Abby, the Tyranid Hivemind or indeed any other enemy force I can think of has ever managed!

 lolman1c wrote:
I can see the writers of black library now sat around a table with their feet on the desk... "Hey dave, we forgot to write a back story to all our characters" "Yeah, don't worry about that, people will just read it anyway" "But Dave, isn't having a back story basic story telling?" "We're writing about Orks here.... we don't want people to actually like them! Hell wy do you think we're doing this from an imperial view point? "

Reference: read Frankenstein. A monster can be a main likeble character who you cheer for while the actual main character, Dr. Frankenstein, can be a monster.

I've read Frankenstein thanks. It's not got anything to do with this discussion though? You felt pity for Frankenstein's monster, not what I want to think when I'm thinking about Orks. Not at all. If I had to guess, the reason they left the backstory out of the Beast was to keep it open for interpretation/ discussion. It also wouldn't add much to the story. The story is about how Orks nearly wiped out the Imperium because they were left unchecked for too long. It's about the Ork evolution and how completely unrestrained it is. It's about how humanity, at that point, had become a bureaucratic mess so cluttered with self serving idiots they couldn't do anything to help save themselves. Adding a backstory about a little Ork who became the Beast would probably be a series in and of itself.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No part of the fluff ever mentioned the limits of their growth. That limitation is put in your head by yourself. Ghazzy was only a normal sized boy and in only 50 some years he became the size of a dreadnought and much bigger then the average warboss. You feel this is OK because you read some pretty paragraphs about him. Fast forward 200 yrs and he's.much bigger. You find this wrong? Even if there is pretty paragraphs to read? Seems pretty weak of a stance. The beast wasn't the first massive ork the Imperium met either. Big E almost got killed by one during the Ulanor crusade. Only thing The Beast got different was an entire book series with him as the antagonist. Ghazzy hasn't even gotten it yet. It wasn't suddenly OMG orks get bigger!?! More like OMG Geedubs gave one the spotlight and now we have more then a pretty paragraph or two about it.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better.

Exactly! Outside of the HH the War of the Beast was arguably the Imperiums most trying time against a single enemy. The amount of technology that the Beast was able to develop and use was astounding (You forgot to mention the gravity whip on the Attack Moon, which is awesome). The size of a Primeork is the most obvious trait and easiest to recognize, but there is more that makes a Prime ork as has already been mentioned. Making Ghazzy a Prime ork makes sense since those other traits he has already done (rallied billions of orks around him, developed insane technology but not quite on the Beast level, is a tactical genius (for an ork)).

They might not make him a Prime Ork, but if the do its a natural step at this point in his lore. In theory an ork can grow to infinite size given enough time and WAAAGH energy. They just very rarely ever live that long or have those conditions.

If I'm remembering my old codexes right, didn't the 3rd or 4th ed Nid dex talk about, or have art of MASSIVE orks fighting Nids?

Bah! Orks dont need all this "Primork" nonsense to seem more powerful. GW just has to emphasize existing lore, that most of the galaxy is ruled by the Orks. Million worlds of the Imperium are a drop in the ocean in comparison to billions of Ork World. Who knows what lies outside humanitys narrow field of view.

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm remembering my old codexes right, didn't the 3rd or 4th ed Nid dex talk about, or have art of MASSIVE orks fighting Nids?

Possibly, I think during the Octarius War (before Ghazzy came) orks got humongeous provided they didnt die due to the constant fighting

Orks won't become Primaris.

Primaris are to Marines what Nobs are to Boyz.

Primaris are +1W, +1A, +1Ld; the exact same statline a Nob has.

A Primaris is just a Nob Marine. A Primaris squad is just a Nob squad.

fe40k wrote:
Orks won't become Primaris.

Primaris are to Marines what Nobs are to Boyz.

Primaris are +1W, +1A, +1Ld; the exact same statline a Nob has.

A Primaris is just a Nob Marine. A Primaris squad is just a Nob squad.

The discussion is currently focused on whether Ghazghkull will become a "Primeork" aka Beast level Ork, or whether he already is.

So if the rumors that the original poster shared turn out to be true, I'll be real glad I still have an old metal dreadnought in my bits bin..... and a good sock.

Okay so now with that out of my system, the rumors posted (if true) would show the inability of GW staff to read. Seriously, they should have a copy of the old rogue trader books or even the old 2nd edition books laying about that the designers could read what was written before they were even a gleam in their daddy's eye. But I'm getting old and grumpy, and want to sit out in a rocking chair with a shotgun and complain about kids and squirrels being on my lawn.

As for ghazzy, I think he could use a new model. Something in plastic, some new detailing, perhaps a proper banner pole.... I do miss makari. But I'd rather see a proper Nazdreg model get released, maybe some new buggies, although if GW does redo the buggies they'll probably end up being ridiculously oversized and looking more like a house on wheels than a buggie.

fe40k wrote:
Orks won't become Primaris.

Primaris are to Marines what Nobs are to Boyz.

Primaris are +1W, +1A, +1Ld; the exact same statline a Nob has.

A Primaris is just a Nob Marine. A Primaris squad is just a Nob squad.

I would love to have an army with all nobz though. I mean, one that's on a similar power level as an all-primaris army, not a joke that gets laughed off the board by shooting.

If anything, nobs need an extra wound this edition. Terminators got an extra wound this edition (maybe they did in 7th too?), and that was always the main advantage nobs had over SM elites, now they have the same amount of wounds

Ammo runts are an extra wound. Regular nobz really need nothing but a price drop - especially for their guns.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ammo runts are an extra wound. Regular nobz really need nothing but a price drop - especially for their guns.

I forgot they could even take them. XD