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 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.

The suit cost is fine, but if it must, drop it to maybe around 38-40 points. Crisis's statline cannot be justified at 25-30 points (M8", S5, T5, W3, SV+3, Deepstrike) The weapons could be adjusted seeing how AM has their weapons discounted for BS+4 models. Shield generators should be bumped up in cost - externally across the game, 8 pt is too cheap for ++4 on a T5 W3 model.

So a (M10" Ws3+ Bs3+ T5 W2 Sv3+, Deepstrike fly unit) at 25 points per model that already exsists must be insanely broken if a crisis suit couldn't be justified at 30 ppm. Inceptors would like a word with you.

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.

The suit cost is fine, but if it must, drop it to maybe around 38-40 points. Crisis's statline cannot be justified at 25-30 points (M8", S5, T5, W3, SV+3, Deepstrike) The weapons could be adjusted seeing how AM has their weapons discounted for BS+4 models. Shield generators should be bumped up in cost - externally across the game, 8 pt is too cheap for ++4 on a T5 W3 model.

So a (M10" Ws3+ Bs3+ T5 W2 Sv3+, Deepstrike fly unit) at 25 points per model that already exsists must be insanely broken if a crisis suit couldn't be justified at 30 ppm. Inceptors would like a word with you.

The 3rd wound alone almost makes up for the difference in cost.

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
- Regular (bs 4+) crisis suits should get considerably cheaper (25-30 pts), as should their weapons.

The suit cost is fine, but if it must, drop it to maybe around 38-40 points. Crisis's statline cannot be justified at 25-30 points (M8", S5, T5, W3, SV+3, Deepstrike) The weapons could be adjusted seeing how AM has their weapons discounted for BS+4 models. Shield generators should be bumped up in cost - externally across the game, 8 pt is too cheap for ++4 on a T5 W3 model.

So a (M10" Ws3+ Bs3+ T5 W2 Sv3+, Deepstrike fly unit) at 25 points per model that already exsists must be insanely broken if a crisis suit couldn't be justified at 30 ppm. Inceptors would like a word with you.

The 3rd wound alone almost makes up for the difference in cost.

You honestly trying to sell that a third wound is worth 17 points or 68% of the starting cost. Thats in addition to minus 2M 2WS and 1 BS aswell. Next you'll be telling me plasma guns are over priced.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's a fricking shooting army. Of course their hero is going to be good at shooting.

I don't feel bad running my Techpriest Dominus with his fairly decent BS. Nor my Marine Captains. There is nothing wrong with an army's hero exemplifying that army's trait.

That's cuz the dominus kind of sucks, despite his BS 2+. I got a Coldstar (since his gear was set, and i didn't feel like magnetizing at the time) at the start of this edition and he just tears the board up. I didn't realize how good he would be.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Bodyguards are usually those individuals that have served with the commanders the longest. They're no more "veteran" than crisis team leaders, they're just promoted.

But, if they've served the longest with the commander and they're promoted, are they not more veteran?
But it's whatever, I just felt that bodyguards and regular teams could use more to differentiate them: regular teams being equally durable and shooty (the good go-to), and bodyguards packing more punch per suit but less durable per point (more of a glass cannon)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.

Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.

Tau have 3 HQ choices. (not counting special characters)
FSE only have 2. And the fireblade only buffs pulse weapons.
The suit commander is and has always been the standard HQ choice.
Also, relics,traits and loadouts are available to any HQ...

Then wouldn't best-case be they get another / it becomes fairly pointed such that it needn't be restricted to one per army?

I'd love min squad size 1 on Crisis. Especially since I like small games. A small unit that drops in and deals with the crisis: isn't that what they're made for? Currently, at min size, they're a large unit and a substantial portion of your list.

Ice_can wrote:
You honestly trying to sell that a third wound is worth 17 points or 68% of the starting cost.

Correction: 17 points isn't 68% starting cost of anything because that's erroneous way of comparing value of a stat.
If we were to just strictly look at W in a vacuum:
Inceptor = 25 pts/W2 = 12.5 points per wound
Crisis = 42 pts/W3 = 14 points per wound

Also, to deny the strength that W3 models have over W2 models in 8th edition with the overabundance of 2D weapons, one can only assume he/she is only offering biased opinions.

W3 is the new T5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
Tau have 3 HQ choices. (not counting special characters)
FSE only have 2. And the fireblade only buffs pulse weapons.
The suit commander is and has always been the standard HQ choice.
Also, relics,traits and loadouts are available to any HQ...

I think you misunderstand my point - Tau essentially has a "build-your-own-named-character" thing going.
Would you let two Girlyman be in a list?

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You honestly trying to sell that a third wound is worth 17 points or 68% of the starting cost.

Correction: 17 points isn't 68% starting cost of anything because that's erroneous way of comparing value of a stat.
If we were to just strictly look at W in a vacuum:
Inceptor = 25 pts/W2 = 12.5 points per wound
Crisis = 42 pts/W3 = 14 points per wound

Also, to deny the strength that W3 models have over W2 models in 8th edition with the overabundance of 2D weapons, one can only assume he/she is only offering biased opinions.

W3 is the new T5.

So the fact that they move slower, can't hit in CC, shoot worse shouldn't be factored into the points cost of a unit?

I think your the one with a bais opinion as your selectively ignoring facts that don't support your narrative.

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You honestly trying to sell that a third wound is worth 17 points or 68% of the starting cost.

Correction: 17 points isn't 68% starting cost of anything because that's erroneous way of comparing value of a stat.
If we were to just strictly look at W in a vacuum:
Inceptor = 25 pts/W2 = 12.5 points per wound
Crisis = 42 pts/W3 = 14 points per wound

Also, to deny the strength that W3 models have over W2 models in 8th edition with the overabundance of 2D weapons, one can only assume he/she is only offering biased opinions.

W3 is the new T5.

So the fact that they move slower, can't hit in CC, shoot worse shouldn't be factored into the points cost of a unit?

I think your the one with a bais opinion as your selectively ignoring facts that don't support your narrative.

There is no bias in stating the fact that W3 is exponentially better than W2, almost worth the loss of 2WS, 1BS and 2"M.

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.

Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.

Plus other HQ choices exist, and they're surprisingly not bad.

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Tau have 3 HQ choices. (not counting special characters)
FSE only have 2. And the fireblade only buffs pulse weapons.
The suit commander is and has always been the standard HQ choice.
Also, relics,traits and loadouts are available to any HQ...

I think you misunderstand my point - Tau essentially has a "build-your-own-named-character" thing going.
Would you let two Girlyman be in a list?

The crucial difference being that HQs are required to fill out detachments while LOWs are not. The suit commander is the standard HQ to fill those slots. Which brings me back to toning down commanders. Why are Tau commanders super heroes while other standard HQs are not? Not to mention Tau commanders have a fairly poor aura which just pushes them to being commandos rather than commanders.

Lastly, the build your own character exists for every faction. Just because Tau commanders get to slap on more guns doesn't suddenly mean they abide by different rules, as far as relics and traits go. IG commanders can get Creed level buffs. Heck, marines captains can straight up become chapter masters.

Granted, a Sub-Commander would at least resolve the detachment problem, which is why it's actually at the top of my wishlist.

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's a fricking shooting army. Of course their hero is going to be good at shooting.

I don't feel bad running my Techpriest Dominus with his fairly decent BS. Nor my Marine Captains. There is nothing wrong with an army's hero exemplifying that army's trait.

That's cuz the dominus kind of sucks, despite his BS 2+. I got a Coldstar (since his gear was set, and i didn't feel like magnetizing at the time) at the start of this edition and he just tears the board up. I didn't realize how good he would be.

The Coldstar "tears the board up" because this edition, like many others, favours short range shooting units that can deploy abnormally.

The Dominus "kind of sucks" at BS2+ because he's a short range model with no abnormal deployment method as standard. Remove the ability to Deep Strike and Fly from a Coldstar, it becomes a lot less board dominating.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Bodyguards are usually those individuals that have served with the commanders the longest. They're no more "veteran" than crisis team leaders, they're just promoted.

But, if they've served the longest with the commander and they're promoted, are they not more veteran?

Not necessarily. A commander and his squad that had served with distinction at a young age could get promoted quickly while some that haven't served with as much distinction might get more experience.

But it's whatever, I just felt that bodyguards and regular teams could use more to differentiate them: regular teams being equally durable and shooty (the good go-to), and bodyguards packing more punch per suit but less durable per point (more of a glass cannon)

They have it in the form of the bodyguard rule. That's enough to differentiate them.

You want more to differentiate them? Let the whole unit take Iridium Armour rather than 1:3.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.

Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.

Plus other HQ choices exist, and they're surprisingly not bad.

Yes, all non-crisis are often overlooked - Fireblade is the cheapest way to reliably to start off a markerlight chain. Darkstrider makes regular pulse weaponry surprisingly deadly, and ethereal's ability is not one time use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Tau have 3 HQ choices. (not counting special characters)
FSE only have 2. And the fireblade only buffs pulse weapons.
The suit commander is and has always been the standard HQ choice.
Also, relics,traits and loadouts are available to any HQ...

I think you misunderstand my point - Tau essentially has a "build-your-own-named-character" thing going.
Would you let two Girlyman be in a list?

The crucial difference being that HQs are required to fill out detachments while LOWs are not. The suit commander is the standard HQ to fill those slots. Which brings me back to toning down commanders. Why are Tau commanders super heroes while other standard HQs are not? Not to mention Tau commanders have a fairly poor aura which just pushes them to being commandos rather than commanders.

Lastly, the build your own character exists for every faction. Just because Tau commanders get to slap on more guns doesn't suddenly mean they abide by different rules, as far as relics and traits go. IG commanders can get Creed level buffs. Heck, marines captains can straight up become chapter masters.

Granted, a Sub-Commander would at least resolve the detachment problem, which is why it's actually at the top of my wishlist.

I totally understand your concern - it seems like you want to build an all-battlesuit army, but can't because crisis's are a joke and you can only take 1 commander. Missilesides are good, but they cost a lot, and you dont want to resort to getting 3 stormsurges to make your all battlesuit list closer to competitive. Riptides are good, but not great; FW suits are pretty good but they typically cost 30~50% more than just buying plastic models. Stealth suits are awesome, but it only does so much; same with ghostkeel.

I'm not sure you have, but other non-battlesuit HQ's are pretty decent - I'd try using them if I were you

FYI, I had to build a friend of mine all battlesuit list because he didn't want any infantries.

P.S. I think strapping on a tank level of armaments is nothing to scoff at - 174pts for QFB Crisis that's GUARANTEED melta range? AT BS+2? WITH REROLL 1' WITH MARKERLIGHT? More than three of these in one army is game breaking IMO.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Coldstar "tears the board up" because this edition, like many others, favours short range shooting units that can deploy abnormally.

The Dominus "kind of sucks" at BS2+ because he's a short range model with no abnormal deployment method as standard. Remove the ability to Deep Strike and Fly from a Coldstar, it becomes a lot less board dominating.

The reason why doesn't matter much. I would not feel bad running a dominus since it tends to just babysit things. It's the fact that commanders are so good that it leaves little room for anything else. Had there not been a detachment limit, commanders would be everywhere. They have plenty of room to be nerfed without becoming useless. (tho I'd like a buff to the aura)

 Kanluwen wrote:


You want more to differentiate them? Let the whole unit take Iridium Armour rather than 1:3.

Hmm, not a bad idea. Makes sense thematically at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

I totally understand your concern - it seems like you want to build an all-battlesuit army, but can't because crisis's are a joke and you can only take 1 commander. Missilesides are good, but they cost a lot, and you dont want to resort to getting 3 stormsurges to make your all battlesuit list closer to competitive. Riptides are good, but not great; FW suits are pretty good but they typically cost 30~50% more than just buying plastic models. Stealth suits are awesome, but it only does so much; same with ghostkeel.

I'm not sure you have, but other non-battlesuit HQ's are pretty decent - I'd try using them if I were you

FYI, I had to build a friend of mine all battlesuit list because he didn't want any infantries.

P.S. I think strapping on a tank level of armaments is nothing to scoff at - 174pts for QFB Crisis that's GUARANTEED melta range? AT BS+2? WITH REROLL 1' WITH MARKERLIGHT? More than three of these in one army is game breaking IMO.

The more playstyles that are viable the better. So while I'm not exclusively into all suits, it's nice to have more options. Fireblades are pretty good, but any more than 2 is just a waste, I feel. A toned down sub-commander would at least resolve many of these issues. Fewer points spent on mandatory HQs = more points to spend elsewhere which increases list diversity.

Tho, a QFB crisis can't deepstrike in melta range. They have to land over 9" away, while melta range is 9" and under. Regardless, it's still insane value which is why I wanted a toned down version.

Dandelion wrote:
Tho, a QFB crisis can't deepstrike in melta range. They have to land over 9" away, while melta range is 9" and under. Regardless, it's still insane value which is why I wanted a toned down version.

Vior'la Coldstar QFB doesn't need to deepstrike though - 40" of movement + no advance and shoot penalty gets you in range of 9" for most things you need downed. You should never deepstrike your coldstar QFB.

Deploy your coldstar QFB @ 13" from the center line (1" behind your deployment line) surround it with few shield drones to soak up 1st turn MW barrages. The only things you can't reach melta range will be few square inches in the corners of deployment map.

Plus, with the new 'rule of three', you couldn't take more than 3 commanders in crisis suit to begin with anyways (which is why I agree with the whole subcommander idea if you recall my earlier post in proposed rules https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754524.page). I think the whole 'only 1 commander per detachment' rule has been blown way out of proportion than it actually is.

I've always thought a fire-team style rule would work nicely with Crisis suits.

Crisis Fire team:

If 3 or more models in a [Crisis Battlesuit] unit target the same unit with all their attacks in the shooting phase, Those models targeting the unit gain +1 to hit.


This actually means large units are favourable and is balanced by diminishing returns as your opponent depletes the unit.

Edit: Model wise, I actually would like them to bring back the XV15 model as a lighter stealth suit. -1 toughness and save, still 2 wounds, limited to burst cannons.

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.

Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.

...

Did you forget Pask exists, or...

Or are you claiming that Tau Commanders are as good as "named" characters without being named?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
spending 150+ points on a basic HQ is silly.

Commanders are HARDLY basic HQ...

Think of it this way - Tau is the only army that can customize a named character level HQ. This means you choose the relic, warlord trait, weapon load outs, etc.

Think about it.

...

Did you forget Pask exists, or...

Or are you claiming that Tau Commanders are as good as "named" characters without being named?

Yah.

If I had my druthers, only Shas'vre and higher ranks would be given BS 3+. Crisis Bodyguards might actually be an option someone takes, even (people were talking positively about a veteran option, right? That's what the bodyguards are supposed to be!). Combine that with decreased suit weapon costs, and a good balance between their firepower, durability, and cost can be found.

For that to be remotely balanced, Commanders would need to be changed in fairly fundamental ways, which IMO could only be a good thing - I want my Commanders focused on commanding, not on pew-pewing (and the inevitable efficient-but-god-that's-dumb suicide commander). Focusing on pew-pewing is not practically any better in T'au tactics sensibilities than if they were leading a charge into the melee against a bunch of entrenched orks.

Yes, they should be badass, but that shouldn't be their focus.

I'd want commanders limited to 3 weapon systems maximum (i.e. no more than a crisis suit could wield), with room for one support system. The commander could forgo shooting with a weapon system to provide the benefit of that support system to something more than himself - perhaps 1 unit within 12", or all units with a model within 6" (former would be easier to balance, but would mean in practice that it'd only be worth it for shooters-of-lots-of-dakka). Frankly, I don't even know where to start with pricing it, point-wise...

But that's my dream. Commanders who command, exploiting their cutting-edge technology, lifelong-training warrior culture, battlefield information and communication network, and concentrated dakka, rather than being the More Dakka version of their lesser boxcar brethren.

At the base, the problem with Crisis Suits is that 6 Crisis Suits with 18 weapons are about the same cost as 3 Commanders with 12 weapons.

The Commanders have as many wounds as the Suits, will do more damage due to superior accuracy, and benefit from the Character Keyword.

GW could have fixed this problem with cost adjustments (up for Commanders or down for Crisis Suits and/or their weapons) or by giving Crisis Suits BS 3+. Instead, they decided that 1 Commander per Detachment would magically fix the problem

 skchsan wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I think the whole 'only 1 commander per detachment' rule has been blown way out of proportion than it actually is.

It's not that people dislike reining in commanders, it's that the "fix" was a non-fix. For most normal lists nothing actually changed. That is the problem. Commanders are still too good and deserve a good nerfing. Unfortunately, GW just decided to declare them as the most "legendary heroes" in an arena filled with legendary heroes. Tell me, why are Tau commanders more legendary than Marine captains? Or a grey knight captain? The only reason is that GW couldn't figure out what they wanted in an HQ. So long as Tau commanders operate exactly like crisis suits, there will never be good balance between them.
If commanders were actually balanced, there would be no need for the limit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

But that's my dream. Commanders who command, exploiting their cutting-edge technology, lifelong-training warrior culture, battlefield information and communication network, and concentrated dakka, rather than being the More Dakka version of their lesser boxcar brethren.

+1

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
If I had my druthers, only Shas'vre and higher ranks would be given BS 3+. Crisis Bodyguards might actually be an option someone takes, even (people were talking positively about a veteran option, right? That's what the bodyguards are supposed to be!). Combine that with decreased suit weapon costs, and a good balance between their firepower, durability, and cost can be found.

For that to be remotely balanced, Commanders would need to be changed in fairly fundamental ways, which IMO could only be a good thing - I want my Commanders focused on commanding, not on pew-pewing (and the inevitable efficient-but-god-that's-dumb suicide commander). Focusing on pew-pewing is not practically any better in T'au tactics sensibilities than if they were leading a charge into the melee against a bunch of entrenched orks.

Yes, they should be badass, but that shouldn't be their focus.

I'd want commanders limited to 3 weapon systems maximum (i.e. no more than a crisis suit could wield), with room for one support system. The commander could forgo shooting with a weapon system to provide the benefit of that support system to something more than himself - perhaps 1 unit within 12", or all units with a model within 6" (former would be easier to balance, but would mean in practice that it'd only be worth it for shooters-of-lots-of-dakka). Frankly, I don't even know where to start with pricing it, point-wise...

But that's my dream. Commanders who command, exploiting their cutting-edge technology, lifelong-training warrior culture, battlefield information and communication network, and concentrated dakka, rather than being the More Dakka version of their lesser boxcar brethren.

I have long loved the idea of commanders sharing their support systems. That would give them a more commandy role and reduce their offense focus.

As for suits, if the commander isn't sharing systems they should be more encouraged to take their own. A light points reduction and cap of 2weapons and a system might do alright together.

I don't think crisis suits should get a bonus to markerlights. What they need are +1W (up to 4), an additional slot for support systems only (so people actually consider taking them), and separate points costs for the commander and crisis suit weapons. Probably remove the commander's ability to have 4 weapons and give him additional support system options that he can use to buff nearby units.

I don't think the suits themselves would need a price decrease (especially with the 4th wound), but the burst cannon, AFP, and especially the missle pod need price reductions for regular suits. The plasma should be given the imperial statline (with overheat) at a slight price increase. Commander weapon costs would all go up (except for flamer). Limiting how many of them you can take doesn't balance the unit, it just means you can't spam as many of an undercosted unit.

ComradeRed1308 wrote:
I don't think crisis suits should get a bonus to markerlights. What they need are +1W (up to 4), an additional slot for support systems only (so people actually consider taking them), and separate points costs for the commander and crisis suit weapons. Probably remove the commander's ability to have 4 weapons and give him additional support system options that he can use to buff nearby units.

I don't think the suits themselves would need a price decrease (especially with the 4th wound), but the burst cannon, AFP, and especially the missle pod need price reductions for regular suits. The plasma should be given the imperial statline (with overheat) at a slight price increase. Commander weapon costs would all go up (except for flamer). Limiting how many of them you can take doesn't balance the unit, it just means you can't spam as many of an undercosted unit.

Seriously why does everyone have such a commanders are OP mentality going on.

They can not be spammed period, they aren't exactly cheap and such a thing as dawneagles etc exsist, please explain why it's ok for custodes to have units with the same stats pretty scary close combat ability and mortal wound protection but tau commanders are the OP unit?

Commanders are good units, good damage potential but fragile if you play them wrong. Crisis suits are so bad they aren't worth playing. You won't see more Crisis suits used just by making commanders as terrible, you will just see neither being played.

Ice_can wrote:
Seriously why does everyone have such a commanders are OP mentality going on.

We don't. Most of us just agree that Commanders are one of the better undercosted units in the game. It's not OP.

Ice_can wrote:
They can not be spammed period, they aren't exactly cheap and such a thing as dawneagles etc exsist, please explain why it's ok for custodes to have units with the same stats pretty scary close combat ability and mortal wound protection but tau commanders are the OP unit?

Shield Captains on Dawneagle JB can't be spammed either. I think others' suggestions aren't exact how to nerf commnaders, but rather, how to re-tool them so they're not just BS+2 one-trick ponies.

Ice_can wrote:
Commanders are good units, good damage potential but fragile if you play them wrong. Crisis suits are so bad they aren't worth playing. You won't see more Crisis suits used just by making commanders as terrible, you will just see neither being played.

Crisis themselves aren't bad. They are just overcosted for what they bring to the table. It's along the same lines as the argument for globalizing the BS+4/BS+3 special weapon pricing that ONLY AM GETS.

Unfortunaty, there is no quick-and-easy fix to crisis suits.

The entire crisis-class needs to be reworked from the ground up. from the once-humble "basic crisis" (that got insanly inflated. remember the days they were one-model hit teams?) to commanders of all flavors and including coldstars.


First, the commander auras need enough of an overhaul to be actually COMMANDING anything. currently they have virtually no command abilities.
the quad-gun setup for commanders is silly, moreso for coldstars.
the fact systems directly compete with gun slots means systems are rarely if ever are worth a damn (not to mention quite a few are horribly overpriced)

Its just...needs a total overhaul.

Crisis suits should be less accurate than fanatical warrior monks who live to train but more accurate than schmuck guardsmen. 40K's system doesn't support this.