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2018/06/20 00:39:53
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
I just wanted you to go in eyes wide open. It was firmly a must watch show for me back in the day and I still think the overall experience was worth it (unlike with Andromeda personally and to a lesser extent Farscape).
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/06/20 09:19:27
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
I think its important to realise that some older TV series are just different to what they are today.
In many ways B5 was ahead of its time; it was one of the very few series that used long running story arcs that ran between seasons. Many TV shows of the time were very much "event of the week" affairs with some casual long running theme through a series (although often not the case - Star Trek never did that really until DS9). About the only thing that might change were character relations, but even then most would keep the sexual tension rather than resolve it with characters hooking up.
In that regard, in its context, B5 was a landmark series. Indeed its only been in more recent times that hte idea of story driven series has really taken off. Of course we still have NCIS series where you can watch almost any episode and be up to date with what is going on pretty quick as it is crime of the week.
Some of B5 is going to feel cheesy, but that's the same for a lot of what we look back on now. I'd say watch it start to finish - I saw a good chunk of series 1 and 2 (before the daily showings got too much for me when I missed a few) and enjoyed the majority of episodes.
As for Farscape I think one had ot accept that it was mad-crazy-fun in space. Once you accepted that it was much easier to go along with it; although I found the last season or two with a mad Chriton dragged on that plot angle somewhat
The first season of B5 wasn't very good, but did lay a solid foundation for seasons 2-4. Sadly, due to problems with the broadcaster, season five was pretty lousy, too.
But the middle seasons were great. Londo had a character arc that any show would have killed for. When B5 was working on all cylinders, it was some of the best sci-fi on TV and reached for the stars. But when it missed... it crashed hard.
2018/06/21 13:53:24
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
You've *got* to see all of series one of B5 to understand the personalities and the releationship between Londo and G'kar. you have to see what is to understand the change at the end of series one. you have to be there when Bester and Morden first appear, pick up on the connection between Garibaldi and Londo, and load of other things that pay off later in show.
If you want a recommendation for a tv show then B5 makes the list, and you start with Series One.
Just watch your back.
2018/06/21 15:10:33
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Indeed; I think, the first time round, I had missed the first broadcast of the first episode (the first one I remember watching was the one with the Soul Hunter), and when I finally saw it once the DVDs came out, the difference in G'Kar and Londo - and the difference in their positions and status compared to one another - is quite striking.
2018/06/21 22:29:02
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
My friends and I always recommend B5, with the warning that the first season is rough but worth the struggle. And you have to watch it to get the most from season 2 on.
2018/06/23 05:10:48
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
RiTides wrote: At the risk of having to hand in my nerd card...
I've never seen this not even an episode! But I've got Prime, so I'll give it a shot now
Are you referring to B5 or Andromeda? There's a bit of a split in the discussion. If the former, I'd recommend *not* taking the quality of the first episode as indicative of the whole series. The show is a bit of a slow burner as I'm seeing now rewatching it for the first time in 20 years and plot points that I remembered being constant throughout take some time to develop. One thing of note is that the series was planned out in outline form for every episode of the original 5 seasons ahead of time. I remember visiting a web site where the creator had short outlines of episodes several seasons ahead posted. There really are easter eggs (before they were a media staple) even in the first episode that relate to one of the last now that I'm rewatching. If you don't catch them, you don't miss something key most of the time though so no worries; it's more of a rewatching benefit once your done. Also, as stated above, the budget was significantly less than Star Trek at the time (roughly 1/4 from what I've read over the last day or two) so keep that in mind. Think of it as a prototype 90's space version of Lost that was derailed by the sudden cancellation in season 4 that had to be wrapped up very quickly... and which was then renewed after the fact and sent them scrambling yet again to try and refit the original planned 5th season back in with the rushed 4th season series ending that wasn't.
Well, I have to say this post does not inspire a ton of condfidence in me
Maybe we should have a "Scifi Series Recommendations" resources thread, given the spinoff Andromeda discussion above? I have discovered several that I think are just awesome recently (Travelers and Colony, both on Netflix) but kind of want to dodge the bad ones such as Farscape, as was also mentioned above. Another amazing gem is Children of Men (stand-alone movie). So yeah... maybe something like this could be suited to a general recommendations thread? It could encompass books, shows or movies, I think.
Don't skip episodes. B5 was the original slow burn series and each episode adds something to the series on some level that adds to the series as a whole. TBH, I don't even skip episodes when I rewatch it.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
2018/06/23 08:09:10
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Ctaylor wrote: The first season of B5 wasn't very good, but did lay a solid foundation for seasons 2-4. Sadly, due to problems with the broadcaster, season five was pretty lousy, too.
But the middle seasons were great. Londo had a character arc that any show would have killed for. When B5 was working on all cylinders, it was some of the best sci-fi on TV and reached for the stars. But when it missed... it crashed hard.
If I’m right in thinking, the show was originally agreed at 5 seasons, to tell the five year story.
But when ratings wobbled around Season 3, the Network said ‘only one more season’. That lead to two years worth of plot being compressed into one season. Ratings jumped, so the network decided ‘oh, go on then. Have the fifth season as well’. Writers were then boxed into a corner.
Still one of the finest sci-fi shows I’ve ever seen. My single favourite scene, just for sheer continuity?
So simple, but an excellent example of the pay offs regular viewers were rewarded with.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I don't think any show has been better written in terms of closing plotholes and ensuring continuity than Babylon 5. Watching that through from end to end, was a blast, and certainly unique in the 90's.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2018/06/24 22:15:56
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Ctaylor wrote: The first season of B5 wasn't very good, but did lay a solid foundation for seasons 2-4. Sadly, due to problems with the broadcaster, season five was pretty lousy, too.
But the middle seasons were great. Londo had a character arc that any show would have killed for. When B5 was working on all cylinders, it was some of the best sci-fi on TV and reached for the stars. But when it missed... it crashed hard.
If I’m right in thinking, the show was originally agreed at 5 seasons, to tell the five year story.
But when ratings wobbled around Season 3, the Network said ‘only one more season’. That lead to two years worth of plot being compressed into one season. Ratings jumped, so the network decided ‘oh, go on then. Have the fifth season as well’. Writers were then boxed into a corner.
Still one of the finest sci-fi shows I’ve ever seen. My single favourite scene, just for sheer continuity?
So simple, but an excellent example of the pay offs regular viewers were rewarded with.
Everyone who asks Mr Morden/the Shadows for something gets what they asked for - including one presumes Morden himself - or so I like to think
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
‘Babylon 5’ is great, so why does it look so bad?
Or: Why Warner Bros. isn't the best home for a classic sci-fi show.
How bad does it look?
How did it get like this?
Who is to blame?
What, if anything can be done?
When the histories of this golden age of television are written, they will likely begin with The Sopranos. But that would be a mistake because the template a lot of modern-day TV copies was instead created by Babylon 5. A decade before The Wire would be hailed as a "novel for television," B5 was a hyper-serialized grand story that was conceived as a single five-year epic.
Now that the series has made its way to Amazon Prime, it is ripe for a whole new generation of fans to discover it. Except that, if they do, they may find that the picture quality is highly variable, and some sequences are quite hard to watch. Now, it's fair to say that the show is so good that it's worth persisting with nevertheless. But how it ended up in this state is a tale of folks trying to plan for its future, only to be defeated by executive neglect
If you're unfamiliar, Babylon 5 is about the inhabitants of a space station located in neutral territory between five major empires. After a series of brutal and devastating wars, the station was set up to help mediate peace between these powerful players. The first half of the year could be mistaken for a generic procedural drama but it's the ultimate "give it time" show, since things quickly begin to cohere into a much greater story.
By the end of its five-year, 110-episode run, the show managed to tell a number of complicated stories, all at once. A show like Westworld can drag a simple piece of exposition out for nearly 20 hours; Babylon 5 would always resolve its plots long before you got bored of them. If the show had aired on HBO, with a HBO-level budget, it would be talked about in the same hushed tones as Game of Thrones.
How bad does it look?
We should probably begin by outlining how effects-heavy shows like Babylon 5 are made, albeit simplistically. There are three different types of shot that were put together to make an episode. You have live-action scenes, which are just actors talking in a room; composites, which have a mix of live-action and CGI; and pure-CGI scenes. In order to protect your suspension of disbelief, it's important that you aren't noticing the transitions between them.
A great sequence to explain Babylon 5's problem is the monorail scene from the Season 2 finale, The Fall of Night, which originally aired on November 1st, 1995. We begin with an entirely live-action shot, where Captain Sheridan (Bruce Boxleitner) boards a monorail shuttle. And you can tell, because it's framed properly and looks pretty good, even if the film is a little grainy because it hasn't been restored or remastered.
Captain Sheridan (Bruce Boxleitner) in a live-action shot.
When the shuttle pulls out of the station, we now see a composite shot, with CGI being used to provide the view out of the monorail's windows. You should notice that, instantly, Boxleitner's head is higher in the frame compared to a moment ago. And that the whole thing seems a little blurry, as if someone has zoomed in too far on a low-res image.
A moment later, we switch to a far blurrier composite.
The show's CGI sequences are in a similar condition to the composites, which you can compare with this slideover. Notice that the Aztec pattern -- the different textures on the ship's body -- looks far blurrier in the widescreen version.
How did it get like this?
Like many shows of its time, Babylon 5 was shot in widescreen (1.78:1) on Super 35 film, which was then cropped to a squareish (4:3) picture. The production team knew that high-def, widescreen TV was coming, and that there was the potential for the show to be re-sold in that format. So it was shot "clean," with sets and space either side of the action that could be shown in the event of a widescreen remaster.
Another Warner Bros. show, Friends, was shot in the same way, although the production team wasn't so careful about shooting clean. When the widescreen versions of the series were released, it didn't take long for viewers to spot crew members and gear in the periphery.
Fox's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which was shot on 16mm and 35mm film, was always intended to be shown in 4:3. An attempt to make a widescreen edition of the beloved cult show met a similar fate and angered creator Joss Whedon. Here's a compilation of all the times you can watch lighting rigs, crew members and even the edge of the set in the first two seasons of Buffy widescreen.
Paramount Pictures' expensive remastering of Star Trek: The Next Generation had the same problem. The Blu-ray editions of the show are only available in 4:3 because just outside the frame are lots of studio personnel and gear. The creative team explained that it would be impossible to brush out this detail, and so the show remains in its original ratio.
The issue with Babylon 5, however, isn't with its live-action scenes, but with any moment in the show that requires special effects. These days, no TV show is made without a lot of cosmetic enhancement from a small legion of CGI experts. But the early '90s were a different time, and most effects-heavy TV shows relied on expensive and time-consuming practical effects.
Babylon 5 used CGI a lot because it was the only way to make the show with its very tiny budget. And it was the early days of CGI, so early that the pilot episode's visual effects were produced on a network of Amiga computers. For the first three series, effects house Foundation Imaging used 12 Pentium PCs and 5 DEC Alpha workstations running Lightwave 3D.
Now, according to some sources, Foundation Imaging lacked the time, or the resources, to produce widescreen CGI effects. But that was okay, because the production process for Babylon 5 was to shoot 1.78:1 footage, crop it to 4:3, and then edit it with the CGI footage and composites for a completed edition of the show, ready for broadcast.
"Halfway through the third season, Portugal and Belgium bought the show," explains producer John Copeland, "and they wanted it letterbox, because they knew we had shot it that way." He says that the Warner Bros. Advanced Tech Center had hurriedly "played with the visual effects" to get it to match the widescreen footage. Later, when the show's second-run rights to the Sci-Fi channel, "[Warner Bros.] transferred all of the PAL masters back to standard def, but shown in the 16:9 letterbox."
Unfortunately, the CGI and composite elements only existed in 4:3, and so Warner Bros. decided to crop and stretch those sequences. That involved chopping the top and bottom off every frame in a scene, and then increasing its width to fit the aspect ratio. The issue was explored in detail by Henrik Herranen from Finland, who published How Babylon 5 Is Transferred to DVD in 2001. Herranen described himself as a "professional in signal processing and a video technique enthusiast." Unfortunately, attempts to find and contact Herranen failed.
Herranen went on to say that because the video was interlaced, Warner Bros.' solution was to break down the image into separate fields. He believes that the components were then cropped wide -- losing a proportion of the data -- and then upscaled by 33 percent. The system then filled in the blanks as best it could, but because it's working with incomplete, low-res data, the results are poor.
Later on, he explains that it didn't necessarily need to be this way, purely if the studio had spent more time on the conversion. Rather than cropping and stretching 4:3 footage to a 16:9 frame, the show could have just been letterboxed and then upscaled more generally. But Herranen says that the process would have required "automatic logic combined with some human interaction for verification," which would have likely increased the cost.
Interlacing? What's that?
The result, unfortunately, is the jarring mish-mash of picture quality that bounces from good one second to pretty bad the next. Remember those screenshots from The Fall of Night I used to demonstrate the problem? Some brilliant person on YouTube has uploaded an original, 4:3 version recorded off-air from a TNT re-run. The quality isn't great, but you should be able to tell that, as originally shot, it's a lot less jarring than the DVD version.
For comparison, here's that same sequence in widescreen.
Who is to blame?
It has been pretty hard, 25 years after the show was made, to track down those responsible for the show's digital second life. Several key figures from its history have passed away, retired, left Hollywood or we simply couldn't track down. Warner Bros., too, did not respond to our request for comment, and so cannot rebut anything that is said below.
Foundation Imaging, which produced the CGI for the pilot through to season three, was apparently willing, and able, to produce widescreen effects. Co-founder Ron Thornton, who passed away in 2016, said that his company "offered to do all of Babylon 5 in widescreen." Quotes attributed to Thornton on the JMSNews forum point the finger over a fight regarding a $5,000 HD "reference monitor so we could check our output."
That request was apparently denied, either by Ken Parkes, WB's then-business affairs chief, or the show's co-executive producer Douglas Netter. Thornton went on to say that "each blamed the other," but the decision meant that "for $75 an episode, they could have had awesome, near hi-def." Unfortunately, it is difficult to verify his account, and Parkes died in 2014 while Netter passed away last year.
"There was not a breakdown over a monitor," John Copeland, who produced Babylon 5 and its sequel, Crusade, told Engadget. Copeland, now the owner of Rancho Olivos olive oils, says that "Ron [Thornton] wanted to get paid for re-rendering everything." And render time was the issue that forced every compromise when it came to making the show's visual effects. But Copeland feels Warner Bros. itself was the problem, rather than visual effects.
"We had set up the show to make the transition to what was, at the time, called Advanced Television Technology," he said. "Everybody knew that [HD] was coming, and that the preferred format would be 16:9," and Copeland toured how other Warner shows were planning for the future. On Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, the team "were doing a 'video hack' to retransfer the negative, stretched in such a way that it would unfold in a 16:9 frame." Unfortunately, the results, while meeting the requirements for widescreen TV, "looked absolutely awful."
So Copeland approached the studio and said that they would "shoot in a 1:78 (widescreen) format, and we'll compose for 4:3, but frame for 16:9." And at the end, the production team "gave them everything in two formats [4:3 and 16:9] with the exception of the visual effects." But, that wasn't a problem, because Warners' Advanced Technology Center had a plan to remedy the problem.
"This company in Sweden, called Teranex, were way ahead of the curve in knowing people would need to upconvert standard def to high definition." Warners owned a Teranex box, and the idea was that, eventually, the 4:3 CGI sequences would be upconverted and integrated into the 16:9 footage. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would look pretty good. But rather than doing it, in the end WB simply reconverted the futzed Portuguese and Belgium footage to NTSC and sold it.
The reason that the show was never given the proper Teranex treatment was, according to Copeland, "because they didn't wanna spend the money." He explained that in the days before DVDs were expected to be lavished with extras, home video departments just took existing material, slapped it in a box and reaped the rewards of doing so.
Copeland believes that the two things that killed Babylon 5's second life were the fact that the show wasn't produced in-house by Warner Bros. "We were like the poor stepchild of Warner Bros," he said, "and the studio looked at us a little askance." In addition, archivists would "lose stuff all the time," including crucial film reels and resources needed before the episodes were broadcast.
The other issue was Warren Lieberfarb, then the head of Warner Home Video, described by the Washington Post as the "father of the DVD." Copeland believes that "in 2002, when they started working on the DVD sets, it would have cost $1,200 to convert every episode and movie to high definition." But Lieberfarb "didn't wanna spend that," and so to save $132,000, the show was dumped out at low-resolution and forgotten about. That cash would have potentially been recouped simply through more DVD sales or potentially even a Blu-ray release.
Copeland added that the relationship between the production team and Foundation Imaging broke down over an incident halfway through the third season. "We were doing Severed Dreams," that year's Hugo-winning blockbuster episode, "and Ron wouldn't deliver the shots for the show unless we gave him another $100,000 ...That was the point where we -- at Babylonian [Productions] -- sat down and thought 'if he does this once...'" Consequently the show walked away from Foundation at the end of the year.
What, if anything can be done?
Well, there's a Change.org petition (because there's always a Change.org petition).
Otherwise, not a lot, because restoring a TV show is a pricey process that won't happen unless there's some guarantee of a return. Shows like Star Trek and The Next Generation were considered big enough properties to justify expensive restoration process. With streaming services destroying the physical media market, second-tier shows aren't likely to be seen as a good investment these days.
The TNG remaster, for instance, cost millions of dollars that it was hoped would be recouped for the Blu-ray release. But since the show is already available on Netflix, it's hard for folks to justify dropping hundreds of dollars on yet another physical media release. And the failure of the TNG project was enough to mean that we'll never see restorations of Deep Space Nine or Voyager.
Some back-of-the-envelope math suggests that remastering Babylon 5 with brand-new CGI effects would cost at least $10 million. Since the original data has -- apparently -- been lost, it would take some time to recreate the images, although fan projects do exist that could speed that up. When (straight-to-DVD revival) Babylon 5: The Lost Tales was made, some fan-made models were used in the show. Even so, it's not likely that Amazon or Netflix would be willing to drop that sort of cash to fix Babylon 5's quality issues.
J. Michael Straczynski
✔
@straczynski
Folks, I'm getting a lot of questions like this...I don't work with or for Amazon, and I have had zero contact with them about this current run. I know only as much as any of you do. If you have questions about this run, please address them to Amazon.
Skolia
@_skolia_
@straczynski hey Joe, do you know if Amazon Prime's B5 has corrected any of the issues the DVDs had?
5:26 AM - Jun 4, 2018
92
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There have, however, been attempts by fans to try and fix the problems that Warner Bros. introduced with the DVD releases. Hunt around on UseNet long enough and you can find people still sharing fan-made HD versions of Babylon 5 that have tried to fix the issues with the DVDs. They're hard to download these days, but some lucky people may be able to help you out.
The show's creator, J. Michael Straczynski, asks not to be contacted in private but does answer questions on his public Twitter. His pinned tweet says that he has had no contact or involvement with the show's arrival on Prime Video, saying "I know only as much as any of you do." Attempts to speak to a representative from Amazon were denied, but the company did say that we should "check out the customer reviews" and activity on Twitter, both of which "speak for themselves." In that spirit, here are some that we found:
J. Eddy
@sofawolfone
Babylon 5 is on Amazon Prime streaming now.
Sadly the quality is... not good. My scan and convert jobs from the DVDs are sharper, even at the upscaled display size.
1:52 PM - Jun 3, 2018
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Amy New
@AmyNewBlue
8 Jun
Replying to @MintamenaPie
I did
Jessie/Minty Every Day is Rusev Day!
@MintamenaPie
If you have Amazon Prime, one of my favoritest sci-fi shows ever has been added, Babylon 5. It’s a derpy upload: the transfer is low quality with scratches, the CGI looks not too good because of it, and the pilot movie is the not good cut...
6:37 AM - Jun 8, 2018
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J. Andrew Gleason
@theopholus
@amazon thank you for adding Babylon 5! The show is one of the greatest ever! You should take @straczynski up on his offer for ways to up the quality. It deserves some love.
8:43 PM - Jun 2, 2018
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On May 17th, Straczynski did offer a message of hope for fans of the series would require little to no effort on both Warner's and Amazon's part. In a five-tweet thread, he said that part of the production's deal with the studio required finished episodes of the show to be delivered on film. That means that there is a 4:3, theoretically pristine -- or at least better-quality than we currently have available -- version of the show sitting in a warehouse. The transfer would still not be pure high-definition, but it would have far fewer jarring transitions than what's currently available.
John Copeland confirmed this, saying "They [Warner Bros.] have everything they would need, except for the pilot." (That's because the warehouse where the materials for the 1993 pilot movie The Gathering were stored were damaged by the Northridge earthquake.) "They could go back to the negative and, assemble the negative and re-transfer it in HD, and all they would have to do is upconvert the VFX footage and drop it into the holes."
Sadly, despite Straczynski offering to oversee the transfer pro-bono, it doesn't appear that either the studio or Amazon got back to him. When I asked him on an update for the story, he simply said:
J. Michael Straczynski
✔
@straczynski
Nopers.
Dan CoopEUr
✔
@danielwcooper
@straczynski Hey Joe, sorry to bother. Did Amazon ever get back to you with your offer to help re-strike prints from the 4:3 Super 35 masters?
4:45 AM - Jun 20, 2018
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Of course, nobody should be watching Babylon 5 for the fidelity of its CGI, even if the cropping and blurring is a problem. As John Copeland said, "You're not really tuning in to watch the visual effects," instead, people are watching a two-decades-old show because "the storytelling does hold up." He added, "In TV, what makes you go back week after week, episode after episode, is that you wanna spend more time with the characters." And no amount of cropping and stretching can dim their shine.
2018/06/25 01:58:11
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Thanks for the link! It's very informative. I watched the entire series in its original run on my old standard definition CRT and, even back then, the quality didn't seem as bad as it does now. I attributed it to being used to a higher quality standard in both games and TV in the decades since but apparently the visuals have objectively gone DOWN in quality since the original airing due to cost cutting/laziness according to the article. :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 02:07:21
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/06/25 02:50:02
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Ctaylor wrote: The first season of B5 wasn't very good, but did lay a solid foundation for seasons 2-4. Sadly, due to problems with the broadcaster, season five was pretty lousy, too.
Not sure about broadcaster...PRoblem was more of for an ages they thought S4 was it. Wrap up, do it. So JMS had to do bit shuffling to get it done in S4. This resulted in S4 being ~4 episodes cut short(the intersections in real time was supposed to be S4 finale originally which would have been rather interesting cliffhanger episode). Then S5 suddenly was greenlighted. So this resulted in JMS having to redo plot for S5.
So far so good. But then during convention HE LOST ALL HIS NOTES FOR S5! Literally. Everything gone. Boom. Puf. All gone, never recovered. So he had to suddenly redo S5 from scratch with only his memory of stuff he had thought years ago on how he wanted it to go.
And of course going to 6 day shoots rather than 7 made sure he had bit less of a time to catch up than he might have had before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If I’m right in thinking, the show was originally agreed at 5 seasons, to tell the five year story.
But when ratings wobbled around Season 3, the Network said ‘only one more season’. That lead to two years worth of plot being compressed into one season. Ratings jumped, so the network decided ‘oh, go on then. Have the fifth season as well’. Writers were then boxed into a corner.
No. It was always INTENDED as a 5 year story. It never was done deal though. It was always done year by year does it continue. Show could have ended after season 1. It was NEVER quaranteed continual. But on S4 there was heavy hints from studio "this is it" and this time series could at least be wrapped satisfactory so they did that. Then when S4 was wrapped in filmings new studio was willing to fund out S5 so final episode material was left un-edited(literally. They were put on hold and not touched for a year) and S5 preparations started(and new finale for S4 filmed as first episode of S5).
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW seems according to JMS there WOULD be way to redo series into at least 720px style as there's better quality masters available they could use. But studio has no interest whatsoever doing anything for B5 so not likely they would spend any money to release new version. It wouldn't be true HD but would be better version than anything released so far.
Only hope for new B5 stuff would be movies since JMS holds rights to those but it looks unlikely JMS gets budget he would want for B5 movies since he doesn't want any more cheap looking movies.
BTW in spoilers bit of background info regarding bit change at the start of season 2 for those who haven't seen/heard reason before.
Spoiler:
The reason why Sinclair left the show(rather surprisingly) after season 1 was not due to studio demands nor was it even because actor didn't get all that well with other actors(which was true albeit) but because the actor of Sinclair had serious mental issue he had to deal with. Don't recall exact illness top of my head but one symptom was serious cases of paranoia which likely had part in why other actors didn't get that well with him. This was unknown to all during the S1 but when season break came he talked with JMS about it. JMS offered to put series on pause until he could get it sorted out but actor didn't want to make new show risk it so they agreed for Sinclair character to be written out so they just recorded the video message that would be used later in S2. JMS promised to hold this secret to his grave but actor said "no keep it secret to MY grave" so as agreed when actor died couple years ago JMS let out full story as per actors wishes as he wanted more awareness toward the illness spread and fans to know truth about reasons cast change happened.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/25 03:37:36
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/06/25 03:41:31
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
The one narn's were chasing that centauri beatinghim to death? Yeah that scene and what that revealed about Mollari's actions in that episode were great
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/06/25 04:12:00
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Sequel. Remakes never really can do justice and it's just same story told anyway. If story is changed then they are taking away what made it good. If they don't then it's just visual upgrade with new actors which might or might not be good.
Remake is pretty unlikely to satisfy old fans and doubtful it could make enough new fans to compensate. Sequel would allow giving new material that would draw in old fans and provided it's not too heavily "you must have watched B5" get in new fans.
Or redo crusade. That was smaller one so less hurdle in remaking it in terms of deleting old and it would allow finish of the big story line that never even got proper start(the virus was basically just starting thing much like battle of the line 24h blackout for Sinclair in B5. It was never THAT big thing but it provided kickstart for the series before the real meat so to speak). With EA secret operations with shadow tech, telepath war etc there would be plenty of room for new stories without having to worry about messing with canonical arc.
Or some sort of story that would deal with Centauri thing seen in lost tales.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/06/28 12:30:36
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Remakes are often boring; either they carbon copy the story so there is little to nothing new; or they change so much that its no longer what it once was. Both of which have problems (although personally I far prefer the former over the latter).
Another thing is to make a similar series. That way you can do what you want with it and take it where the director and writer want to now rather than slaving it to themes and concepts from a previous work. OF course its far harder to get funding for "Dave's Space Adventure" with no fanbase or known market, than it is to say "Babalon 5 remake" which at least has been proven to work and has some market out there already (which is honestly why we see a lot of remakes where the director/writer appear not to stick to the original material at all).
They could always pitch it as "Babylon 5 - in space!".... But, change the setting, and go around again. Stargate did similar with the spinoffs.
B5 had spin-offs as the movies and Crusade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 12:59:54
I would much rather see a sequel (or prequel) than a remake. There is gobs of awesome material set up for sequels going from the first minutes after the end of season 5 out to millions of years in the future (and past). Also, the characters were so intensely defined by their actors, that I cannot imagine anyone else playing them, who could fill in and play G'kar the same way?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 23:42:52
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2018/06/28 23:49:43
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Vulcan wrote: Why does it need to be a sequel? It could be interesting to see the first Shadow War, or the Dilgar war, Narn rebellion against the Centauri...
The thing is prequels are hard for several reasons
1) Technology jump. Even the cheapest CGI today is streets ahead of what B5 had in its day. As a result a lot of limitations on what B5 could show and do are not present now. As a result you can very easily fall into what the Star Wars prequels fell into - an unexplained apparent jump in technology in the prequel. Even really simple stuff like consoles and datapads have changed (heck with tablets we've got data pads more powerful and techo-sci-fi than most sci-fi shows ever had) so it can be really hard to re-create a faithful prequel.
2) Story. It's very easy to have the story spoilt (eg we know what happens in the first Shadow War by the end) or at least know that there's no overall urgancy in some story plots because we already know the future. This can not only make the writing harder, but can also result in the series feeling rather flat.
3) It constrains the writer even more to following the original pattern, structure and style if they want to avoid the problems above. So even if they overcome it all the story structure can lack that original spark that the series once had. The writers can be boxed in, esp if its not the original writer and if the producers want to stick to the original formula.
Overall sequels at least let you take things in a new direction and you can have your own story arcs that, whilst bound (ideally) to events of the past; are not constrained by them in the same way. Because the future isn't shown it means you've got far more room to take the series to new places. Plus the advance of real world technology is more masked since you'd expect the technology of the series your watching to have advanced as well. So it feels more like the natural evolution of the series.
I’m going to go with remake. As much as I hate them in general.
B5 was a great story, but the setting was nothing truly special. It’s full of pretty generic sci fi stuff. But the intricate plot, foreshadowing, characters, etc are what really sold it. But technology was just at the cusp of what it wanted to do. CGI was still spotty and expensive. And there was the whole 5 year story, cut to 4, add a year of wrap up and filler.
I’d love to see how it would play out with modern graphics, without the timline being jerked around by threats of cancelations and renewals. Sure, old hats might know what’s going on, but that’s not a dealbreaker. Game of Thrones seemed to do well for itself, when anyone could read the books to see what was going to happen (for most of it at least, I’m a book only guy, but hear the series got past that point). I’m sure they would work in new stuff to keep old guys entertained. Hanging on the framework of the main plot were plenty of one-off and short independent arcs that could be replaced to give it more connection with modern audiences and room for fresh ideas.
Thing is though, like others have said, B5 is one of those few pieces where certain characters really are *defined* by their performance.
Most of the human characters are pretty stock, even Sheridan, but G'kar? Molari? I just can't see them as distinct from Jurasik's and Katsulas' performances of them, especially in a lot of the scenes they have together. Like, in my minds eye I can still picture things like "All of it Molari, ALL OF IT!", and all the little moments where Londo realises just how fethed he is or how much he's fethed something up.
You'd either have people doing bad imitations of the original performances, or else they'd have to be pretty distinctive from the originals and that'd just feel wrong somehow, G'kar is, you know, G'kar, and Londo is Londo.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
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2018/06/29 01:56:11
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
A prequel set in the Dilgar War would get my vote, the tech is largely the same for all races (no Omega destroyers is pretty much the only really bug change) and unless you have the read the fan works and indorsed material for the various games all on knows about it is that the Dilgar stomped the LoNAW, carried out mass murders/genocide, got driven back to their home and then their sun went nova. Plenty to work with and the tech problem mentioned above wouldn't be an issue.
Sequel wise, if not Crusade, then the ISA war with Centauri (mkii) where Sheridan and Delen get captured would be an obvious choice.
On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
2018/06/29 02:10:02
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Nevelon wrote: I’m going to go with remake. As much as I hate them in general.
B5 was a great story, but the setting was nothing truly special. It’s full of pretty generic sci fi stuff. But the intricate plot, foreshadowing, characters, etc are what really sold it. But technology was just at the cusp of what it wanted to do. CGI was still spotty and expensive. And there was the whole 5 year story, cut to 4, add a year of wrap up and filler.
I’d love to see how it would play out with modern graphics, without the timline being jerked around by threats of cancelations and renewals. Sure, old hats might know what’s going on, but that’s not a dealbreaker. Game of Thrones seemed to do well for itself, when anyone could read the books to see what was going to happen (for most of it at least, I’m a book only guy, but hear the series got past that point). I’m sure they would work in new stuff to keep old guys entertained. Hanging on the framework of the main plot were plenty of one-off and short independent arcs that could be replaced to give it more connection with modern audiences and room for fresh ideas.
I agree for many of the same reasons.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/06/29 03:34:23
Subject: Bablyon 5 is now streaming on Amazon Prime
Vulcan wrote: Why does it need to be a sequel? It could be interesting to see the first Shadow War, or the Dilgar war, Narn rebellion against the Centauri...
Problem with those is human viewers are often more interested in human actors. Thus 1st and 3rd would unlikely to be commercial success. 2nd one would be more feasible though not sure how it would be more than SFX shooting movie and B5 wasn't all about battles.
It was firmly a must watch show for me back in the day and I still think the overall experience was worth it (unlike with Andromeda personally and to a lesser extent Farscape).
not even an episode! But I've got Prime, so I'll give it a shot now 
such as Farscape, as was also mentioned above. Another amazing gem is Children of Men (stand-alone movie). So yeah... maybe something like this could be suited to a general recommendations thread? It could encompass books, shows or movies, I think.
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