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 Nevelon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

True. That would be another good metric to gauge them. A lot of them can work fine as an army expansion box, but how well do they work for someone just getting into the game? With the different “ways to play” and detachments, it’s not as simple as it used to be when we just needed a HQ and 2 troops.

It's not that much more complicated, a very high proportion of tournament lists have a battalion (2 HQ, 3 troops) or a brigade somewhere. And an even higher proportion of friday night beer league armies, I'd wager.

ValentineGames wrote:
Leman russ aren't good?
Jesus are players really this bad now?

I've gone over this. And I wasn't even complaining about the tank's quality anyway. Like the Crisis Suits in the Tau kit, you can just have a Tank Commander. Nobody will be upset, and just glue an antenna on if someone is, because that's all the upgrade sprue is. Or paint a command marking. It doesn't matter; an "official" Tank Commander is just a Leman Russ with an upgrade sprue. And there's nothing stopping you from using it just as a normal heavy support, BS4+, Non-Commander Leman Russ. It's not great, but it's presence isn't going to make you lose the game either, especially at 500-1000 points when you're just starting out.

However what I was complaining about is that a single tank and squad of guys, no matter how you work it, isn't something you can play a game with. The tank, generously upgraded with lots of useless bangles, is maximally 285 points. The infantry squad, if I buy all the most expensive upgrades, is 87 points. Add in the Commissar and the kit barely edges you over 400 points if you buy every single useless upgrade you can [414 by battlescribe's reckoning]. On the other hand, the Necron and Tau kits both yield over 600 points without trying to find the most expensive upgrades to buy for everybody.

You can pick up a Necron, Tau, or Space Marines, set and play a game with the stuff in it. It's a very small game, but it's usable. You can't pick up the IG box and play a game with what's in it, you'll need at least 2 more units, probably 3.

For what it's worth, GW did notice this problem. There's the "Defense Force" sets that comfortably brings you over 500 points without sticking on pointless widgets if you want to start IG, and the new Start Collecting sets, like the new Necron one, comes with 2 HQ's and 2 different infantry units.

Leman Russ are great. Buy the box and you've got a tank Commander or a Pask to just rip up your friends without even trying.

meleti wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Under usability, just because the contents are "good", doesn't mean the box is usable. It's a START COLLECTING box, if it doesn't provide you a place to actually start collecting, and you need to buy 5 more boxes of things to play a game, it's not a very good starter set, is it?

The IG box is in this situation. Leman Russes aren't good, but you can always make it a Tank Commander, which is, so sure you can use the infantry squad and tank that comes in the IG box, but a tank and an infantry does not something remotely usable make.

True. That would be another good metric to gauge them. A lot of them can work fine as an army expansion box, but how well do they work for someone just getting into the game? With the different “ways to play” and detachments, it’s not as simple as it used to be when we just needed a HQ and 2 troops.

It's not that much more complicated, a very high proportion of tournament lists have a battalion (2 HQ, 3 troops) or a brigade somewhere. And an even higher proportion of friday night beer league armies, I'd wager.

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

The Tyranid box isn’t too bad, although not entirely usable by itself. Gets you a decent HQ, a Troop it buffs, and an alternative delivery method for your troop choice/distraction for heavy weapons fire.

The Militarum Tempestus SC box gives you every Militarum Tempestus unit available, plus a commissar!

Surprised there hasn't been a little more love for the Adeptus Mechanicus set. It seems really solid to me. I have one and am planning on buying two more. With the exception of the third Tech-Priest, I expect to use every single model in the vast majority of games I play with the faction.

The AdMech box is fantastic money wise and for the usefulness of the contents. Two boxes gets you a batallion and a solid core to any AdMech force.

Even if you’re just looking for another Dune Crawler it’s worth it just for the cheap Skitarii and the Tech Priest is basically free bits.

 Marmatag wrote:
Leman Russ are great. Buy the box and you've got a tank Commander or a Pask to just rip up your friends without even trying.

Ahh that explains it.
Playing with no effort. I can see why people choose commanders now.

The IG SC is just so annoying, the $165 Defense Force is an insult as a "Start Collecting" box.

I wish the $85 IG box came with 2 infantry squads, some sort of HQ model (I prefer the look of a commisar, but maybe something that's a [insert pinkey into corner of mouth] mini-Creed would be better), a Chimera and a Sentinel (or Heavy Weapon squad set). That seems like it would be a good starting point.

You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

I think people misunderstand that START collecting does not mean full FINISHED army...

But I'm thinking people are purposefully ignoring that so as to give themselves some weird sense of high horse satisfaction.

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

 Crazyterran wrote:
You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

This a start collecting box is basicly a patrol detachment.(in fact they outright noted with the custodes release that the custodes guard box basicly IS their start collecting box) the problem isn't so much an issue with the start collecting boxes as it is a problem with guard over all in that you just need MORE of something to play. with space Marines I can play a game with a start collecting box easily a termy captain, a dread, and a ten man tac squad? I can get proably 500 points out of that if I load up all the bells and whistles. Guard is so cheap point wise there's really nothing they could do to make a 100 dollar start collecting set work for them.

They're a hoard army and thus it's hard to really do much with them in terms of a "discount starter force"
Compare how much a 500 point space marine army goes for, vs a 500 point guard army (and toss a 500 point Custodes army in to give an idea of the other extreme) and you'll swiftly see what I mean

Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

Grey Knights: Don't bother collecting box with a 10 man Guard Squad, a Commissar, a Heavy Weapons Team and a Leman Russ battle tank

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
You grt one HQ model, one troops squad, and one other.

Thats what most Start Collecting boxes are.

This a start collecting box is basicly a patrol detachment.(in fact they outright noted with the custodes release that the custodes guard box basicly IS their start collecting box) the problem isn't so much an issue with the start collecting boxes as it is a problem with guard over all in that you just need MORE of something to play. with space Marines I can play a game with a start collecting box easily a termy captain, a dread, and a ten man tac squad? I can get proably 500 points out of that if I load up all the bells and whistles. Guard is so cheap point wise there's really nothing they could do to make a 100 dollar start collecting set work for them.

They're a hoard army and thus it's hard to really do much with them in terms of a "discount starter force"
Compare how much a 500 point space marine army goes for, vs a 500 point guard army (and toss a 500 point Custodes army in to give an idea of the other extreme) and you'll swiftly see what I mean

Its the same thing for Orks and Tyranids, so..?

Hell, the Leman Russ can be a points sink if you want it to be. Orks get a Trukk.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
Is GW ever going to make a GK start collecting.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

Artemis

Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

So most of the battle force boxes? They don't keep them in stock for every faction on the regular, but I've got 3 hqs, 3 troops and a transport for GSC sitting in a box up stairs. The price is a bit higher than you quoted, but I don't expect that to change much.

Gonna say, still pretty damned intimidating. The start collecting boxes are not a bad idea as most people are probably going to want to start with a far, far smaller pile of plastic. The battleforces are nice once you have the idea you really want to run with a faction though.

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

phillv85 wrote:

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

Process wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's really customer friendly eh to sell them stuff that they soon realize they don't want to field. Wasted money. Good customer service selling them useless junk.

If i collected guard or Tau i would field both Leman Russ and crisis suits. How is anything in a SC useless junk?

I believe it's just chatting a load of...

Rybrook wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

Rybrook wrote:

I think that is what they need. A "Battalion Box", let's call it.

Priced at around $100 or a little more [the Necron Start Collecting is still only $85], it would have 2 different HQ's, 3 troop choices, and a single "icon" unit like a tank.

A Space Marine one might have a Captain, a Lieutenant, 2x5 Tacticals, a squad of Scouts, and a Predator.
A IG one might have a Command Squad, a Commissar, 3x Infantry Squads, and a Leman Russ.

This would provide a 1-click foundation for a new player starting an army, that they could pick up, put together, and play with, and would provide an adequate and engaging game, if small.

This hobby is daunting to get into, and a new player should be able to have a 1-click start to their gaming experience. They shouldn't have to trawl through fora for advice on how to start the army they want, of page through the entire GW product line to figure out what to buy first.

There could even also be a "Next Steps" box, that brings a few more different things that you don't see in the Battalion box and when combined, create a okay collection over 1k.

Isn’t that what the 2nd ed army boxes were, quite amazing what you used to get for the price

They were great, I had the Blood Angels one as a kid. It had a dreadnought, a 10 man death company, 5 man Terminator squad, a tactial squad, a 10 man devestator squad a captain and those god awful scouts with mohawks.

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

That was back in 2nd edition, that was enough for a reasonable game. It was never designed to be a single box containing the whole range.

Yes but comparing it to a SC box it’s better

Rybrook wrote:

Nothing like 1500/ 2000 Pts out of the box

Which was a lot fewer miniatures back then.

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

Not 100% true. The new Eldar SC box is a farseer, wraithguard, wraithlord, and a war walker (HQ, 2xHS, elite). The old one was a jetseer, 3 bikes, and a fireprism (which did fit the formula at the time, would not today) A quick look at the SC boxes on GW’s site looks like the rest of them do fit the formula, and the Eldar one is the only outlier. But I’m not 100% on all the armies these days.

From a pure value POV, the eldar is a good buy. You get a lot of stuff in the box. It is not really a good start point for an army. If you added another HS you could fit it into a detachment, but none on it’s own. Everything in there is playable, but that’s Eldar for you. None of the units are the hot ticket ones however. Due to the options on the units, it is great for expanding an army. If you are tired of your guys dying in a stiff breeze, you get a bunch of anvil units. Need some CC chop? you can build it. Long range fire? It’s there.

From a hobby perspective the box is great. The wraith units have a ton of options for how to build them. With all the gun options for things, plenty of builds there. The only real drag is the monopose farseer. Who can probably be converted into a warlock/bonesinger/spiritseer with minimal work.

I bought 2. But I already had a core of an Eldar army. The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

 Nevelon wrote:

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

Can you not use wraiths in other eldar armies?