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 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

I'd take a raider over a rhino any day. The 5++ spoils a lot of AT fire, and the toughness difference is shockingly unimportant in many cases. If raiders had 7 W or so, I'd agree. But raiders are very frustrating clocking in a 10W a pop. With access to FNP. And on-demand -1 to hit.

If those babies roll hot, its GG for a lot of armies. If they don't, raiders are cheap anyway. There is no downside for the Drukhari player. I saw a guy roll 5 straight saves vs neutron lasers on turn 1 and get a turn 1 concession vs admech.

Guardsmen are so busted that even at 6 ppm, their statline is fairly sturdy. Being cheap fixes most woes in 8th.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

I'd take a raider over a rhino any day. The 5++ spoils a lot of AT fire, and the toughness difference is shockingly unimportant in many cases. If raiders had 7 W or so, I'd agree. But raiders are very frustrating clocking in a 10W a pop. With access to FNP. And on-demand -1 to hit.

If those babies roll hot, its GG for a lot of armies. If they don't, raiders are cheap anyway. There is no downside for the Drukhari player. I saw a guy roll 5 straight saves vs neutron lasers on turn 1 and get a turn 1 concession vs admech.

Only a single obsession grants them a 6+ FNP and only a single Raider can be at -1 to hit per turn and that's not a feature of the Raider, but a feature of its army. If you took a Raider instead of a Rhino for your marines, it would not have -1 to hit on it ever.

The 5+ invulnerable is nice, but in practice it ends up being the saving throw that the Raider uses because AP -1 is easy. 5+ invulnerable would be great if it had an armor save that prevented the invul from usual being the standard save. Any S5 AP-1 weapon or greater is going to be fine. The fact that you can use anti-infantry weapons on the Raider effectively really dampens its defenses. Shooting bolters at a Raider is no easier than shooting them at a Rhino, but those Heavy Bolters will work fine on a Raider but would be wasted on a Rhino.

In addition, when a Rhino is destroyed and the marines pop out to play, it's not that bad. When a Raider is destroyed, it's much worst for the Drukhari player. A Rhino only needs to survive 1-2 turns to do its job whereas the Raider would like to survive the whole match (unless there are wychs).

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

It depends on what you're shooting them with.

A Venom and a rhino both take an average of 7.7 BS3+ lascannons to take out, if the rhino doesn't have smoke popped. A raider is more durable vs lascannons taking 9.7.

Their real strength is that they ignore any AP better than -1 because they have invulns, and they treat S6-9 as basically the same (wounds them on a 3+). Where you start to see them acting more like the glass cannons you hear about is when you start looking at weapons that mitigate that advantage, like S6 AP-1 assault cannons and S7 AP-1 D2 autocannons. A rhino takes 9.67 full assault cannons and 15 autocannons. It takes 4.5 assault cannons and 6.7 autocannons to kill a venom, more than twice as fast.

Part of the reason they smashed the meta so hard initially along with necrons is that everyone had pretty much decided plasma and lascannons were the way to go to kill tanks.

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

It depends on what you're shooting them with.

A Venom and a rhino both take an average of 7.7 BS3+ lascannons to take out, if the rhino doesn't have smoke popped. A raider is more durable vs lascannons taking 9.7.

Their real strength is that they ignore any AP better than -1 because they have invulns, and they treat S6-9 as basically the same (wounds them on a 3+). Where you start to see them acting more like the glass cannons you hear about is when you start looking at weapons that mitigate that advantage, like S6 AP-1 assault cannons and S7 AP-1 D2 autocannons. A rhino takes 9.67 full assault cannons and 15 autocannons. It takes 4.5 assault cannons and 6.7 autocannons to kill a venom, more than twice as fast.

Part of the reason they smashed the meta so hard initially along with necrons is that everyone had pretty much decided plasma and lascannons were the way to go to kill tanks.

Yes, exactly. They aren't more durable, they're just more unorthodox and therefore don't require the same tools to beat as most armies.

I'd imagine that a balanced army would have some lascannons, autocannons, and assault cannons. Against Dark Eldar, you have weapons that were not planning to hunt vehicles hunting vehicles. I personally enjoy shooting Raiders/Venoms with S6 weapons (I field a lot of S6). My anti-infantry weapons have a lot more viable targets when against Dark Eldar.

Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

Also consider running a House Morton Crusader Knight. All of its guns are specialized to give Dark Eldar a huge headache.
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Rapid Fire Battle Cannon
Twin Icarus Auto Cannon

Iron Bulwark and Rotate Ion Shields will make it very difficult to kill, and you can use House Morton's Stratagem to ignore negative to hit modifiers- basically nullifying his night shields and stratagems to stack negative hit modifiers.

With the Relic Icarus Auto Cannon, you can potentially destroy three separate light skimmers per turn. The missile launcher is a better all comers choice, but if you struggle with DE, the Auto Cannon can be a good buy.

If your Dark Eldar opponent has loaded up on Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances they may really struggle to bring enough fire power to deal with the 3++ before their skimmers get shredded by the Knights weapons. Especially since the rest of your army is doing whatever it does- which is providing supporting fire and preventing Wracks and Talos Pain engines from engaging your Knight. And its not like its a complete list tailoring choice. Those guns are going to have good targets vs most opponents. See how Primarus like facing down 2 damage Gatling Cannon rounds.

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

Disintegrators are statistically better vs IKs than lances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

8 points per wound is still really good. And they can't be ignored like rhinos, because they are carrying good units, not trashy marines. 8 pts per wound at T5 5++ is durable in 8th ed period.

 Kharneth wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

I know, but they’re so very different that comparing durability isn’t very meaningful. In addition to just the unit profiles themselves, rhinos are essentially just assault unit delivery machines, the main purpose is for your guys to get out and charge something. Venoms and Raiders will just fly around with their units taking potshots at nearby enemies, assaulting or even leaving the transport tends to be a very secondary purpose for Cabals. Who cares what’s more durable against <insert favorite gun>?

Everyone’s using Venoms and no one’s using Rhinos so it’s probably not helpful to focus on what a Rhino has that a Venom doesn’t.

Martel732 wrote:
Disintegrators are statistically better vs IKs than lances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're still only what? 8 points per wound? With an invuln? That's better than most units I can think of.

They're durable if you don't have the appropriate weapons to respond to them with, which is usually the problem and the reason why they seem durable.

You'd think anything was durable if you didn't have the right weapon. If the game was flooded with marines it might not seem so bad, but when you plan for MEQ and are then faced with something wholly different, it's going to mess up your performance. It's not because the vehicles themselves are anything special.

8 points per wound is still really good. And they can't be ignored like rhinos, because they are carrying good units, not trashy marines. 8 pts per wound at T5 5++ is durable in 8th ed period.

7 points per wound is really good, too. 7 points per wound at T7 3+ with a turn of -1 to hit is durable, too period. There's nothing extra special about the Raider. Ignore a rhino filled with Khorne Berzerkers and see what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari aren't "delicate". That's why they are so strong. They are actually quite durable/pt.

You say "durable/pt" but my Rhinos beg to differ. 70 points for t7 3+ armor with smoke launchers is more durable than a Raider or Venom for the points. Likewise, the Kabalite Warriors are more expensive than Guardsmen, but just as easy to kill.

A Rhino doesn’t have a Heavy Bolter, doesn’t fly, and isn’t open topped. Oh, and it lacks a FNP and an invulnerable save. Doesn’t have the Venom’s -1 to hit, either. Wildly different units.

We're talking about durability specifically. The Raider is an awesome vehicle because it can carry an awesome weapon and it can protect its unit while allowing the unit to perform normally (or enhanced). The Raider also lacks FNP. Only when it's in the proper obsession does it have it and even then it's a 6+.

What we're talking about, survivability, is T5 10 wounds at a 4+/5++ with the ability to fly and move pretty far. Raiders are easily worth their points, but I don't think that they are exceptionally durable for their points.

I know, but they’re so very different that comparing durability isn’t very meaningful. In addition to just the unit profiles themselves, rhinos are essentially just assault unit delivery machines, the main purpose is for your guys to get out and charge something. Venoms and Raiders will just fly around with their units taking potshots at nearby enemies, assaulting or even leaving the transport tends to be a very secondary purpose for Cabals. Who cares what’s more durable against <insert favorite gun>?

Everyone’s using Venoms and no one’s using Rhinos so it’s probably not helpful to focus on what a Rhino has that a Venom doesn’t.

The fact that Raiders are not just dumping their troops out on turn 2 or 3 is part of what makes them less durable. The Drukhari player will want to keep his units in the vehicle for most/all of the game. More turns of being a high priority target mitigates durability.

Try that with 100 W of vehicles on the table. Too many choices. Too many targets. Too many undercosted weapons.

" Ignore a rhino filled with Khorne Berzerkers and see what happens. "

Now insert any other power armor unit. And it gets ignored.

Raiders and Venoms aren’t really high priority targets though. There’s probably like 6-10 of them and it’s more or less the entire Drukhari army. Their whole list can’t be high priority.

meleti wrote:
Raiders and Venoms aren’t really high priority targets though. There’s probably like 6-10 of them and it’s more or less the entire Drukhari army. Their whole list can’t be high priority.

BINGO. If everything's special, then nothing's special.

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

It can by realizing that it treats S6 like comparably priced vehicles treat S8. The problem is that the meta had rolled towards S4 and S8 being the king of the hill values prior to the current infusion of T5-6 units with invulns.

A big problem is that flame weapons need a baseline rework. Basic flamers, hand flamers and HFs are universally priced and end up across the board weak even against a meta that should highly favor their use (- to hit and invuln spam).

It's funny to me to see your level of frustration to drukhari and harlequins hitting the meta. A marine list can far better equip to deal with them than smashcap/guard/custodes bikes or reaper/spears, which is kind of the other big option.

i ll just laugh when De units cost will be reworked and raised, then we will see some mass whining

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is too strong to ever go away. So that's a huge advantage for the raider. I've purged lascannons out of my lists, but many in my play group think I'm nuts. I think raider treating S6-9 identically is a huge meta advantage that can't really be negated easily.

It can by realizing that it treats S6 like comparably priced vehicles treat S8. The problem is that the meta had rolled towards S4 and S8 being the king of the hill values prior to the current infusion of T5-6 units with invulns.

A big problem is that flame weapons need a baseline rework. Basic flamers, hand flamers and HFs are universally priced and end up across the board weak even against a meta that should highly favor their use (- to hit and invuln spam).

It's funny to me to see your level of frustration to drukhari and harlequins hitting the meta. A marine list can far better equip to deal with them than smashcap/guard/custodes bikes or reaper/spears, which is kind of the other big option.

Harlequins? Who mentioned them?

Even reapers can't melt marines like Drukhari.

S6 is largely available on gak platforms for the Imperium.

Riggs wrote:
I'm playing in a local tournament this weekend and was looking for pointers on beating DE. I have very little experience with them and had a few questions.


1. What should by priority targets be?

2. What are some of their better strategems to be aware of?

3. What are their primary synergy strategies? How do DE armies generally work?

4. What units can I expect to see in every DE tournament list

General rules about DE are that they have a very good shooting phase and the entire army that starts on the board competes to soak the same type of weapons. I mean everything is T5-7 multi wounds with 5+ or 4+ invuln and something (the coven stuff) with 6+ FNP, sometimes also vehicles ignore wounds on 6s. It's unlikely to see other T values in turn 1.

About priority targets it really depends on your list. What do you suffer most? Ranged anti tank? Target flyers or ravagers first. Do you need to delete infantries? Target the transports. Do you fear assault oriented units? Kill the grotesques first. Do you fear those 20 hellions that can assault turn 1 and unleash several mortal wounds thanks to the dedicated stratagem? They're your priority target.

Units that you're expected to see in every DE tournament list are only the three ravagers or alternatively 3 flyers. 3x3 Prophets of Flesh grotesques, 3x3 Red Grief jetbikes and 2+ raiders with kabalites should be very common at tournaments since they're very competitive choices.

 blackmage wrote:
i ll just laugh when De units cost will be reworked and raised, then we will see some mass whining

I would be in no way mad about a points adjustment to Venoms, disintegrators (they were overpriced at 30pt but they overshot by at least 5), Ravagers, Grotesques and kabalites.

I'm going to be running 9 jet bikes tomorrow. I was planning on running 1 big unit, just to make a big mess of what ever I hit T1. You think 3x3 is better?

I was also planning to run them as cult of strife for the extra attack, they don't need advance and charge or a reroll to make a T1 charge.

The reason you run 3x3 is so you can take it as an outrider. And red grief is definitely the one you want if you are using them for t1 charges. Otherwise your opponent can easily deploy far enough back that they will not be likely to make the charge. If your opponent deploys exactly at 12" for dawn of war then you are fine, otherwise you need the extra 8" to make sure you get there.

3x3 are good only if you want to make use of the Red Grief bonus and charge turn 1. Those bikes are basically tarpit units.

If you play other wych cults a single big unit of bikes with some blasters is solid as well. Even two big units if you can give to both of them the +1T drug.

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

Neither of those are vehicles, they're actually monsters like Tyrannofexes or Riptides. Although maybe they're also heavy pain engines? I have no idea what a heavy pain engine is in 8th.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

 Burnage wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

Ah, that's a big omission.

 Burnage wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Since all their vehicles have Fly, including even the heavy pain engines,

Not in my Codex, neither Talos or Cronos can Fly? Unless I am missing something.

They got the Fly keyword added in the Drukhari FAQ.

Ah right - missed that ! thanks

 Blackie wrote:
3x3 are good only if you want to make use of the Red Grief bonus and charge turn 1. Those bikes are basically tarpit units.

If you play other wych cults a single big unit of bikes with some blasters is solid as well. Even two big units if you can give to both of them the +1T drug.

9 bikes 3 blasters and 3 grav-talons. I am planning to tie someone up turn one. So I don't get shot to gak. If they want to deploy at the back of the board thats fine. If they give me that much board, the bikes have done their job. Theoretically, I'll let ypu know how it goes.