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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

w1zard wrote:
Even at Stalingrad, where the Russians were using conscript human wave tactics, shooting people who retreated and pretty much personified the whole concept of "we have more men than you have bullets, we win", the casualty rate was only 50%.

This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.

Yes, the battle of Leningrad had cases of mass civilian conscription and human wave tactics, because the city was under siege and it was the early stages of Barbarossa, where massive quantities of Soviet equipment had been encircled and destroyed. Stalingrad and the majority of other battles did not follow the same pattern.

Enemy At The Gates is not a documentary, at best it is rather offensive historical fiction, at worst unintentional Nazi propaganda.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 15:14:49




Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Sniper Drone




w1zard wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Nobody would want to join the Imperial Guard if you had a 90+% chance of getting slaughtered horribly and not making it back home. I don't care how glorious dying for the emperor is.
You realise that 1) The Imperium is a Theocracy and they have been indoctrinated to think that, yes, dying for the God-Emperor is glorious and 2) 99% of Guardsmen don't get to "choose", they are "told".

Only on worlds where forced conscription is a thing, which I admit is some of them, but not all of them.

In the Macharius novels, the majority of his army were volunteers... As in they could quit any time they wanted, in fact it was a plot point that he was trying to inspire his troops to stay on because so many were leaving the Imperial Guard. In the IG codex, it also specifically says that PDF compete in exercises for the right to join the Imperial Guard. No matter how much I believed in the emperor of mankind, there is no way in hell I would compete for something I knew was a guaranteed death sentence. Human psychology just doesn't work like that.


Here's the thing, when you sign up for the guard, you don't KNOW that you're going to a death sentence. You don't know about the swarms of a million hungry eyes and teeth that eat the world you stand on, of deathless legions that flay your atoms with their simplest guns, nor the fey beings that emerge from nothing to bring endless pain and torment. All you're going to know is a chance to escape from your poverty ridden, grueling existence toiling within His endless manufactorums, where all you're likely to fight are a few homeless rebels not worth the dirt they stand on, and maybe a few of those ferals Greenskins that come and raid the farms sometimes.

And Macharius was going out conquering a vast amount of worlds. Those Guardsmen retiring were almost certainly taking up their settlement rights to firm the core of the world's colonists, and not going home.

The way I see it retirement for a Guardsmen depends on the warzone they're sent to.

1. A localised defensive war? They'll be close enough that, when the battle is finished, they can be sent back to their home planets to bolster the defenses with their new experiance.
2. An offensive war? Rights of settlement on the planet/planets.
3. A far away defensive war? If a guardsmen is being pulled from across the Segmentum to participate in a defensive war it is likely of such apocalyptic proportions that, SHOULD they survive, they'll be of such experience that they'll be worth carting all across the galaxy, and way too scarred to ever go back home, thinking of the battlefield as their home and their regiment as their family. They'll probably be organised in an offensive to retake previously lost worlds, in which case see point 2.
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

 Verviedi wrote:
w1zard wrote:
Even at Stalingrad, where the Russians were using conscript human wave tactics, shooting people who retreated and pretty much personified the whole concept of "we have more men than you have bullets, we win", the casualty rate was only 50%.

This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.

Yes, the battle of Leningrad had cases of mass civilian conscription and human wave tactics, because the city was under siege and it was the early stages of Barbarossa, where massive quantities of Soviet equipment had been encircled and destroyed. Stalingrad and the majority of other battles did not follow the same pattern.

Enemy At The Gates is not a documentary, at best it is rather offensive historical fiction, at worst unintentional Nazi propaganda.


Agreed, the russian wave tactic was only to be actually seen in the beginning of the invasion, where it was not even a true tactic but simply the consequences of the logistis and command being completly taken aback, confused and reacting in complete desorder to resist and buy time. By Stalingrad, the Red Army had become a force to be reckoned with despite many persisting shortcomings.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Verviedi wrote:

This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.

Yes, the battle of Leningrad had cases of mass civilian conscription and human wave tactics, because the city was under siege and it was the early stages of Barbarossa, where massive quantities of Soviet equipment had been encircled and destroyed. Stalingrad and the majority of other battles did not follow the same pattern.

Enemy At The Gates is not a documentary, at best it is rather offensive historical fiction, at worst unintentional Nazi propaganda.

I can quote peer reviewed historical sources that say you're wrong. The Russians absolutely used 'cannon fodder' during the early stages of WW2 as a delaying tactic against the nazis. Although it probably wasn't as bad as was portrayed in Enemy at the Gates, and by the end of WW2 the Red Army was a large professional force that had no need of such tactics. However, I don't want to turn this into a political discussion.

Do you agree or not agree that Stalingrad was an absolute meatgrinder? If you do my point still stands.

MalfunctBot wrote:

And Macharius was going out conquering a vast amount of worlds. Those Guardsmen retiring were almost certainly taking up their settlement rights to firm the core of the world's colonists, and not going home.

The way I see it retirement for a Guardsmen depends on the warzone they're sent to.

1. A localised defensive war? They'll be close enough that, when the battle is finished, they can be sent back to their home planets to bolster the defenses with their new experiance.
2. An offensive war? Rights of settlement on the planet/planets.
3. A far away defensive war? If a guardsmen is being pulled from across the Segmentum to participate in a defensive war it is likely of such apocalyptic proportions that, SHOULD they survive, they'll be of such experience that they'll be worth carting all across the galaxy, and way too scarred to ever go back home, thinking of the battlefield as their home and their regiment as their family. They'll probably be organised in an offensive to retake previously lost worlds, in which case see point 2.

Sure, I've never argued otherwise. My view on the issue has always been that the chance for a soldier to return home after being discharged is always directly proportional to how far away his regiment was. Although I can see a guardsmen really wanting to get home and spending a large amount of retirement money buying passage back on a merchant ship. Remember 40k is a living breathing universe and that what we traditionally view as 40k (the battles and dystopian war stuff) side of things is only a very small part of that.

However, I still maintain the view that if nobody ever came back from fighting in the Guard, recruitment rates on worlds where conscription wasn't a thing would be near 0.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 20:09:34


 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Yes, the Imperium treats Guardsmen as disposable, and hauling letters halfway across the galaxy is hugely wasteful (as for astropath communication, that's reserved for important things). So no, letters home probably aren't a thing, though for the purposes of morale, the guardsmen can write home and think it will reach loved ones, when it's really just incinerated.

As to 'volunteering', remember that 40K is full of living conditions that are far worse than a battlefield. In the guard, you're guaranteed to be fed, clothed and housed, and you might not ever even see battle, given how byzantine the bureaucracy is. Your regiment could be sent to a war zone conquered 100 years ago, and the navy leaves the moment you've landed - congratulations, you're a garrison force now. Thousands of regiments might die every day, while thousands of other regiments never see combat, show up when the battle is almost won, or arrive at a dead world with no enemy in sight. You could spend your entire lifetime in the belly of an imperial navy ship being shuttled from world to world, living a life that's head and shoulders above the vast majority of the imperium's citizenry.

   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

The Eisenhorn short story "Missing in Action" has Guardsmen returning to their home planet once their campaign is won - but I've no idea how common that is.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 John Prins wrote:
Yes, the Imperium treats Guardsmen as disposable, and hauling letters halfway across the galaxy is hugely wasteful (as for astropath communication, that's reserved for important things).
Sure, but what if their homeworld is only one jump away? The amount of resources used (one commandeered merchant ship) is a pittance next to to possible gains in morale and fighting effectiveness that the regiment would receive from recieving letters from home. Yeah you are right, halfway across the galaxy it's not going to happen, like you said it is a waste of resources. However, I can definitely see a regiment operating near its homeworld receiving correspondence from home on an irregular basis.

beast_gts wrote:
The Eisenhorn short story "Missing in Action" has Guardsmen returning to their home planet once their campaign is won - but I've no idea how common that is.
Probably somewhat common, but it definitely doesn't happen all of the time. Like I said it probably depends on how far the regiment is operating from its home planet and whether the administratum considers it worth the resources to send the regiment back home or to just muster out on a nearby world for convenience sake. It probably also depends on how long the regiment served and how combat effective the regiment is.

I absolutely do not believe no guardsman ever returns home or even 90+%. Those numbers are unsustainable and would be really bad for military and civilian morale. Propaganda only does so much to cover that kind of thing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 22:05:58


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






w1zard wrote:
Those numbers are unsustainable and would be really bad for military and civilian morale. Propaganda only does so much to cover that kind of thing.


It's not mere propaganda, it's religious devotion. This is not the US/UK in 2018 we're talking about, it's a totalitarian theocracy where every citizen knows that without the Emperor's mercy the only possibility is a fate far worse than death and the surest way to ensure eternity at the Emperor's side is to die in His service. 100% losses in a battle would be an event to celebrate, as it would mean every soul in the regiment being granted access to heaven. Morale would be as high as it could ever be, knowing that martyrdom awaits along with a merciful release from the horrors of life in the 40k universe. Any who might think to question this would face (likely public) torture and execution for heresy and find their souls condemned to hell for eternity.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Peregrine wrote:
It's not mere propaganda, it's religious devotion. This is not the US/UK in 2018 we're talking about, it's a totalitarian theocracy where every citizen knows that without the Emperor's mercy the only possibility is a fate far worse than death and the surest way to ensure eternity at the Emperor's side is to die in His service. 100% losses in a battle would be an event to celebrate, as it would mean every soul in the regiment being granted access to heaven. Morale would be as high as it could ever be, knowing that martyrdom awaits along with a merciful release from the horrors of life in the 40k universe. Any who might think to question this would face (likely public) torture and execution for heresy and find their souls condemned to hell for eternity.


Throwing your life away for no purpose, however, is wasting the Emperor's resources and thus heresy. It would be both wasteful and stupid to just have units fight to the last man unless there's no other option. Veteran officers and NCOs in particular, but also specialists guardsmen, would be valuable in training new troops and/or make up the backbone of the PDF on a newly (re)conquered world. Sometimes your service in life is worth more than what your death can buy.
   
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Kapuskasing, ON

Negated by a population unfathomable huge and thus an unfathomably huge birth rate that humans are "produced" at much higher rate then ammo.
   
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Douglas Bader






Spetulhu wrote:
Throwing your life away for no purpose, however, is wasting the Emperor's resources and thus heresy. It would be both wasteful and stupid to just have units fight to the last man unless there's no other option. Veteran officers and NCOs in particular, but also specialists guardsmen, would be valuable in training new troops and/or make up the backbone of the PDF on a newly (re)conquered world. Sometimes your service in life is worth more than what your death can buy.


Remember, the Imperium's greatest resource is its near-limitless supply of willing martyrs. Sure, it would be heresy to throw away lives just to ensure that they die in battle, but the Imperium is not going to hesitate to spend lives like bullets. If any guardsmen survive to become veterans/officers it's just a nice bonus. And those veterans/officers are still expendable.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Verviedi wrote:
This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.


Wouldn't this degree of willpower and dedication to the war effort be a point in favour of the Soviet contribution? Unless the goal is to make the big bad ruski appear ideologically stronger but technologically inferior to the Allies.

 Psienesis wrote:
I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.


"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.


Wouldn't this degree of willpower and dedication to the war effort be a point in favour of the Soviet contribution? Unless the goal is to make the big bad ruski appear ideologically stronger but technologically inferior to the Allies.


The goal was to spread the myth of Soviet (industrial, and doctrinal) inferiority, and to make “Communism” look inhumane. By creating scenes of human waves rushing to their dooms, your citizens associate “Communism” with utterly inhumane tactics, technology portrayed as inferior, and cruel political officers.

Additionally, you make your own generals and soldiers look better if your ally is portrayed as an incompetent who only succeeds by wasting manpower. This is loosely (in a different way) related to the myth of the African front - Rommel was portrayed as far more competent than he really was, in order to excuse the failures of British generals in North Africa.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/25 13:43:46




Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
This is not accurate in the slightest. Soviets using human wave tactics as their main strategy, mass executions of retreating soldiers, and the one rifle per three men thing are Nazi propaganda that got into the public conciousness during the Cold War, when the American government was trying to discredit the Red Army’s contribution to WWII.


Wouldn't this degree of willpower and dedication to the war effort be a point in favour of the Soviet contribution? Unless the goal is to make the big bad ruski appear ideologically stronger but technologically inferior to the Allies.


It's not, because being dedicated to your fatherland, brave and selfless, doe not require you to blindly jup into a certain death for no gains. It is stupidity, not martyr. Martyr is to die in a heroic but useful way in a war, and in reality, a huge portion of the soviet army behaved as such, not only because they were made to, but also because many knew it would be them, or the fascists as they call them.

The allies were inferior to the soviet on most levels, as far as war goes, did however beat them in a few, but they obviously were'nt that fierce because they were not directly defending their homelands.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





In the novel BaneBlade, it's mentioned that mail is sent whenever the regiment is close enough to do so. It's also mentioned that a quick tithe of reinforcements may be drawn at the same time. Given that, most likely it only happens once is a century - and most regiments don't last a century.

I have noticed that writing letters to home that never get mailed is a common feature in the BL fiction. It mirrors a common practice of humanity since they first started writing - sometimes writing the letter is cartharic even if nothing ever gets home.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:

It's not mere propaganda, it's religious devotion. This is not the US/UK in 2018 we're talking about, it's a totalitarian theocracy where every citizen knows that without the Emperor's mercy the only possibility is a fate far worse than death and the surest way to ensure eternity at the Emperor's side is to die in His service. 100% losses in a battle would be an event to celebrate, as it would mean every soul in the regiment being granted access to heaven. Morale would be as high as it could ever be, knowing that martyrdom awaits along with a merciful release from the horrors of life in the 40k universe. Any who might think to question this would face (likely public) torture and execution for heresy and find their souls condemned to hell for eternity.

Again, I have no doubt that some worlds have this level of devotion, but not all. In the Ciaphas Cain novel series the Tallarns have this level of fanatacism and both the Valhallans and Cain think of them as weirdos and make fun of them behind their backs.

Spetulhu wrote:

Throwing your life away for no purpose, however, is wasting the Emperor's resources and thus heresy. It would be both wasteful and stupid to just have units fight to the last man unless there's no other option. Veteran officers and NCOs in particular, but also specialists guardsmen, would be valuable in training new troops and/or make up the backbone of the PDF on a newly (re)conquered world. Sometimes your service in life is worth more than what your death can buy.

This. Wasting resources is a crime in the Imperium, even one as plentiful as manpower. To quote general Castor from the DOW series:

"Merrick, a guardsman's LIFE is to die. My job has always been to send them to places where they CAN die. I'm not afraid to spend them, but I never waste men..."

 Verviedi wrote:

Additionally, you make your own generals and soldiers look better if your ally is portrayed as an incompetent who only succeeds by wasting manpower. This is loosely (in a different way) related to the myth of the African front - Rommel was portrayed as far more competent than he really was, in order to excuse the failures of British generals in North Africa.

IDK... Patton thought Rommel was a genius and Patton was arguably one of our most able Generals of the war on the US side outside of his eccentricities. Before you say anything about the movie: Patton coloring my opinion, I haven't seen that movie since I was a kid, I am referring to his war record. I believe he still holds the world record for the fastest forced march to victory in the history of mankind for his relief action at Bastogne.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/26 00:32:50


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

Rommel was possibly a tactical genius, yes. His actions in battle can’t be argued with. However, he was rather reckless, and wasn’t able to properly manage his supply lines and logistical resources, as demonstrated in North Africa and the German forward logistical situation during the battle of France.

Without the necessary level of competence on the resource management and strategic level, tactical prowess becomes less useful. I have no doubt he would have made a fantastic Major, but as a General he was nowhere close to the memetic badass god of war that propaganda and public conciousness makes him appear to be.



Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Verviedi wrote:
but as a General he was nowhere close to the memetic badass god of war that propaganda and public conciousness makes him appear to be.

That I can agree on, but someone not measuring up to war propaganda about themselves most likely released and perpetuated by others without their consent doesn't mean they are incompetent. In fact, despite his deficiencies in some areas of his command that you addressed I would still class him as an extremely skilled General. As you said though, not godlike.

If I may make a comparison, George Washington was a famously mediocre tactician, even accounting for the poor quality of troops he was commanding in relation to his enemies. He lost more battles than he won. I still consider him a "great" general for his sheer charisma and ability to rally the continental troops around himself, and his superb abilities as a politician and statesman to get funding for his militia and pressure the continental congress not to give up the war against the British. Being a general is like being a battlefield tactician, high level strategist, politician, logistician, and celebrity all rolled into one. Deficiencies in some areas can be forgiven if they are made up in others.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/06/26 07:18:27


 
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

 Verviedi wrote:
Rommel was possibly a tactical genius, yes. His actions in battle can’t be argued with. However, he was rather reckless, and wasn’t able to properly manage his supply lines and logistical resources, as demonstrated in North Africa and the German forward logistical situation during the battle of France.

Without the necessary level of competence on the resource management and strategic level, tactical prowess becomes less useful. I have no doubt he would have made a fantastic Major, but as a General he was nowhere close to the memetic badass god of war that propaganda and public conciousness makes him appear to be.


The thing with Rommel is that whereas his deeds were beyond impressive, his failures were as incredible. For having steamrolled the brits at first, he was stomped around el alamein because of a hill he never realised was not possible to take... He was able of the greatest, just as of the incredibly baddest.

Although al in all it was still a very good tactician, that few such as Patton or Youkov matched, and a very respectable man for not being a convinced naz as some of his peers, he was far from godlike and perfect.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Another point about Rommel is that the Allies supported his legend well past the end of the war because they were rebuilding the mythos of the 'Honourable German' as West Germany itself was rebuilt, in part because they needed a solid ally there against the growing Soviet bloc. It's very unlikely that Rommel's genius in the field is pure fabrication from both Axis and Allied sources, but it is very likely that his brilliance was exaggerated. And the Nazis made sure to rotate him out of North Africa as the situation became untenable so that his reputation would not be affected.


 ChargerIIC wrote:
In the novel BaneBlade, it's mentioned that mail is sent whenever the regiment is close enough to do so. It's also mentioned that a quick tithe of reinforcements may be drawn at the same time. Given that, most likely it only happens once is a century - and most regiments don't last a century.

I have noticed that writing letters to home that never get mailed is a common feature in the BL fiction. It mirrors a common practice of humanity since they first started writing - sometimes writing the letter is cartharic even if nothing ever gets home.


Thank you for that source, and you make a good point on the cathartic nature of writing letters home regardless of whether they make it.

It seems that regular correspondence is all but impossible unless the regiment is stationed very close to their founding world, but the occasional letter making it home over the decades is a possibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

Although al in all it was still a very good tactician, that few such as Patton or Youkov matched, and a very respectable man for not being a convinced naz as some of his peers, he was far from godlike and perfect.


While not a loyal member of the Nazi party, Rommel had great faith in the man Adolf Hitler himself from a very early point. It is part of what catapulted him through the ranks to such a major position on the outset of the war. Though it would be fair to say almost every German citizen, Nazi or not, did buy into Hilter's cult of personality at some point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/26 11:52:56


 Psienesis wrote:
I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.


"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad 
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

 Humble Guardsman wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

Although al in all it was still a very good tactician, that few such as Patton or Youkov matched, and a very respectable man for not being a convinced naz as some of his peers, he was far from godlike and perfect.


While not a loyal member of the Nazi party, Rommel had great faith in the man Adolf Hitler himself from a very early point. It is part of what catapulted him through the ranks to such a major position on the outset of the war. Though it would be fair to say almost every German citizen, Nazi or not, did buy into Hilter's cult of personality at some point.


Pretty mcuh every soldier was at the beginning, as they saw an asset to rebuilt the importance of the army.
The "honorable german" thing is also true.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A generic Guardsman? No. A bigwig Lord Commander or Lord Commissar? Perhaps.


Why would a Commissar write home? He has no family to write to and probably does not even know his planet of origin. The Schola Progenum is his life - and they probably don't really care about him either way.


The Adeptus Tabelarios, they deliver the letters; or at least they try! (yes, I just made that up) Chronically underfunded, though they may be, and with workers having a penchant for going on murderous rampages, they still receive, redirect and find passage for the numerous letters written by Imperial Servants. Ships returning after delivering supplies, often have spare cargo space that can be used.
   
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The Great State of Texas

Remember this is also personal head canon. In fluff there is no region a regiment in moderate distance from home should not have letters and troop rotations on inbound ships and supplies/reinforcements outbound.

I think of IG like regiments in the 1700s with similar transport timelines. A post in Europe/nearby, pretty heavy communication links. A post further away/like a regiment in Australia. Little communication while away.

Personally I don't see travel of more than six months or so. Otherwise it's extremely ineffective. Put a mass conveyance out off commission for a year or more for a single regiment-sounds like someone is going to get demoted Vader style.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/26 17:51:43


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I was under the impression that service in the Imperial Guard was mandatory, and that things like "not wanting to die" and "unreasonable length of service" were excuses the weak gave before their commissar shot them in the face.

It's not like modern military. It's conscripts from every world the Imperium controls, sent to the most hellish places in the galaxy with very little training and mostly recycled gear. Because if there's one thing the Imperium has in droves, it's manpower.

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The Great State of Texas

 Octopoid wrote:
I was under the impression that service in the Imperial Guard was mandatory, and that things like "not wanting to die" and "unreasonable length of service" were excuses the weak gave before their commissar shot them in the face.

It's not like modern military. It's conscripts from every world the Imperium controls, sent to the most hellish places in the galaxy with very little training and mostly recycled gear. Because if there's one thing the Imperium has in droves, it's manpower.


Manpower yes, transport capacity is limited however. Moving people is not free Citizen!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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If the Guardsman is part of a very large force (or one that extraordinarily well equipped) that has a logistical fleet big enough for regular shipments between the warzone and his homeworld for reinforcements/supplies, then sure, why would he not be able to send a letter home?
Most Imperial forces don't have the resources for that though. Ships are always in short supply and travel is unreliable. Usually, regiments have to source reinforcements and supplies locally, which also means there aren't going to be any letters home.

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
If the Guardsman is part of a very large force (or one that extraordinarily well equipped) that has a logistical fleet big enough for regular shipments between the warzone and his homeworld for reinforcements/supplies, then sure, why would he not be able to send a letter home?
Most Imperial forces don't have the resources for that though. Ships are always in short supply and travel is unreliable. Usually, regiments have to source reinforcements and supplies locally, which also means there aren't going to be any letters home.


I would disagree for the reasons you state. Most forces are actually local. Those ships have to go back for resupply and can drop off letters, wounded, etc.else they just have empty holds.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Octopoid wrote:
I was under the impression that service in the Imperial Guard was mandatory, and that things like "not wanting to die" and "unreasonable length of service" were excuses the weak gave before their commissar shot them in the face.

It's not like modern military. It's conscripts from every world the Imperium controls, sent to the most hellish places in the galaxy with very little training and mostly recycled gear. Because if there's one thing the Imperium has in droves, it's manpower.

It isn't about compassion. From a purely pragmatic standpoint these things make sense too.

If a regiment is operating locally, letters from home would cost a pittance in terms of resources to get delivered and would most likely improve the fighting morale of the regiment greatly, why would you not spend resources on that?

Additionally, when a "term of service" has expired for a guardsmen, it makes sense to muster them out and allow them to leave the guard. A soldier who is 40 or older probably performs at a much lower physical level then a younger one. Like you said, the Imperium is not lacking in manpower, and it makes no sense to hold onto these veterans well past their prime simply because they haven't been "used up" yet. It is good for both civilian and military morale to see soldiers successfully retiring from the guard. ("Come fight for the Guard! Retire to a newly conquered planet with a free homestead, land, and a government pension!"), not to mention it allows the retired soldiers to pick up a job training the local PDF if they so choose, which they probably will as soldiering is their life at that point.
   
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A lot of the fiction is meant to show only the negative. Guardsmen not wanting to retire because they would be left on the nearest world, settlement rights only given to a single regiment on the planet (which in numbers per regiment is just flat out stupid), the idea that due to space and warp travel veterans have no living family left at home ( I can't remember which book it was, a veteran is talking about how he knows his wife back home is dead because the money he has earned hasn't been withdrawn in years(I don't think the writer put a lot of thought into how a veteran was able to see his bank statements but not have normal contact with his wife)) so they just keep signing on. Letters from home to the grunts doesn't really seem to fit in the 40K narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
If the Guardsman is part of a very large force (or one that extraordinarily well equipped) that has a logistical fleet big enough for regular shipments between the warzone and his homeworld for reinforcements/supplies, then sure, why would he not be able to send a letter home?
Most Imperial forces don't have the resources for that though. Ships are always in short supply and travel is unreliable. Usually, regiments have to source reinforcements and supplies locally, which also means there aren't going to be any letters home.


I would disagree for the reasons you state. Most forces are actually local. Those ships have to go back for resupply and can drop off letters, wounded, etc.else they just have empty holds.

I can't remember a single story in which regular guardsmen actually get transported off world because they are wounded.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/27 08:40:21


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
A lot of the fiction is meant to show only the negative.

Yeah, I think a lot of the earlier IG lore was meant to be as grimdark as possible even when it made no sense or was even actually counterintuitive. The newer IG lore is a lot better in that regard.
   
 
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