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Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
No, and even if they are registered they often refuse to pay taxes. In turn, they often also do not have access to basic infrastructure such as electricity, running water and sewage, especially in Eastern Europe.
The fact that they have always lived under the radar can be explained by their semi-nomadic nature. They travel a lot, including between countries, which makes it hard to get a grasp on them. But most importantly, they have faced discrimination and racism from sedentary "white" European populations and their governments for as long as they have lived in Europe. That obviously has made them very distrustful and wary of governments, which is why they often do not want to register themselves. They prefer to stay hidden. Thirdly, a lot of them simply do not know any better. They live the same way as their parents did who lived the same way their parents did etc. etc. A lot of them simply do not see or understand the need for governments and their paperwork. A lack of formal education certainly contributes to that.
The communist governments in Eastern Europe put a lot of effort in getting the Roma 'under control', and they made a lot of advances in registering them, settling them down in sedentary communities with electricity, running water and such, sending Roma children to school and generally integrating them into society. Forcibly of course, because the Roma often weren't really willing. But then the communist states collapsed and in the upheaval a lot of the paperwork and progress was lost, and the new nationalist governments that replaced the communists were not at all interested in putting any effort into integrating the Roma. The forcible communist integration of Roma had not lasted long enough to leave a lasting imprint on the Roma people. If multiple generations of Roma children had grown up with the benefits of schools and jobs under the communist governments, it probably would have been quite different. But now they just went back to isolating themselves from society and governments. Not that I can blame them for that with how racist these new nationalist governments were to them (and still are).
Da Boss wrote: If the Germans did something like this the world would absolutely explode. I do not understand how the Italians are getting off so lightly, given their fascist history.
Its because Italy surrendered in 43. Italy like Austria profits from a partial perception that they were victims of Germany too.
As for the case in itself, Salvini is a waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are EU(or more likely Italian) citizens I presume, unless they have no paperwork in which case where would you even send them too. Seems like he's making a show for his supporters and nothing more. Got to appreciate the crickets from 5 star though, really lets you know what kind of party it really is.
You can deport a EU citizen to his home country if they don't have the means to sustain themselves and/or is a draw on the welfare system.
Is that the correct interpretation though as the UK decided tried to deport people because they were homeless (and there can't be many more that could be considered as being unable to sustain themselves) and the UK High Court judged it illegal under EU law.
There is a difference between deporting people and politely asking them to leave though.
Thanks for the history lesson. It does seem like a census is necessary - though it also seems people don't trust the source proposing it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/27 18:00:20
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I knew a guy in college that was from Spain. There were Roma that occasionally passed through his home town. According to him any vacant field or abandoned farm house became prime squatting space and many personal items up and vanished. When they did move on there was a major effort to clean up. Trash, spoiled food, empty booze bottles, and piles of human waste.
cuda1179 wrote: I knew a guy in college that was from Spain. There were Roma that occasionally passed through his home town. According to him any vacant field or abandoned farm house became prime squatting space and many personal items up and vanished. When they did move on there was a major effort to clean up. Trash, spoiled food, empty booze bottles, and piles of human waste.
Yeah, for that you won't encounter many people symphatetic about them here. Its a two side problem. They don't want to integrate and people really doesn't want to make what should be done to force that integration, so people just want them to leave as soon as possible.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I understand the problems very well - we have similar problems in Ireland with Irish Travellers. I have had to clean up after them, and it can be really unpleasant. Bags of rotting meat and filled nappies.
But I do not know how to fix the problem. They face a lot of hostility and discrimination, and their natural response is a sort of "feth you" attitude. They are their own society and do not want ot "integrate" into mainstream society.
Attempts to force "integration" are really just saying "Your way of life is wrong. You must give up everything that makes your culture unique and be like us." It is not something most of us would accept if someone said we needed to totally change our culture. The Roma and Travellers could equally argue that private land ownership is wrong, that the land belongs to no one, and you should really stop owning it and be more like them.
I know the majority argument is to force integraiton, and it often seems like the only "solution", but I do not feel comfortable with it when I try to look at it from Traveller or Gypsy point of view. That is not to say they should be free to do whatever they want, but I am wary of "integration" arguments or attempts to make them be more like the rest of us. I say this as someone who has had many encounters with Travellers, the majority of them sort of negative.
I believe our societies just have to be strong enough to be capable of accepting this difference and dealing with it, I suppose. If I had to clean up a few bags of rubbish, okay, well, that's the price for not destroying an ancient culture. I can pay that price. I am more concerned about the very high rates of incest, child abuse and spousal abuse in these communities. It is really really bad.
What is going on in Italy is much more sinister though. An attempt to get them all on a list so you can deport them should absolutely NOT be justified by saying we could give them better healthcare or whatever if we knew who was there. They want these people on the list to discriminate against them and get rid of them, that is very clear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/27 19:04:00
Well the British fixed that here with some blankets.
Here we have hobos. A major problem in San Francisco.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/27 20:03:35
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Yeah, so I have heard. The property prices are insane. We have "normal" homeless people too, but Roma and Travellers are something else.
Travellers tend to move from town to town in a convoy of motorhomes and caravans these days. Often they also engage in construction work or metal work of some sort. Unfortunately, there is also a fair amount of crime, particularly in rural areas. My parents and uncles have been robbed by Travellers a few times.
There's problems here but there far more complicated.
Roma, or any other names, Travers, Gypsy, Irish Gypsy, all these groups have over time due to some bad elements gained a somewhat negative reputation. Now the fact they do not want to integrate at times and others only want them gone.
Both sides reinforce the situation everyone's in. It's a self fur filing prohpicey. Why care, if the hate you. Why help if they trash your land.
The issues are similar, the two groups are at odds in many ways and I'm afraid unless one side changes alot, there is no change.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
The issues are similar, the two groups are at odds in many ways and I'm afraid unless one side changes alot, there is no change.
And there won't be, for the foreseeable future. One of my best friends is a Gypsy. His parents like many gypsies are hawkers by trade, selling clothes in weekly markets in different villages, a different one each day of the week.
He studied Computer engineering instead, played warhammer, and eventually married outside the group, which means that to many of his circle while growing up (and some in his family, not his parents though) he's a traitor. Much like those black people in America that get accused of "acting white" if they get a degree and a well-paying job.
So people keep identifying gypsies will the petty drug trade, scrap metal stealing or this gentleman:
For those who don't know Spanish, he hasn't worked a single day on his life, and has 36 sons by 4 different wives (one of which he married when she was 12) and they all live in an actual cave as a sort of clan in the mountains, living off welfare and the odd job. The article comes from social services taking 11 of his sons from him after allegations of physical and sexual abuse.
Trusting governments or police comes slowly if at all when in most places you've only been allowed full citizen rights for less than a century. Not being a citizen often meant you couldn't buy or rent a house even if you wanted to, and getting steady employment often required you have a recorded place of residence, not that anyone would hire a gypsy for anything except some temporary work anyway. Then add in laws that make being unemployed and/or homeless illegal - yes, that used to be a crime in many places.
There's been registers before, used for everything from forced sterilizations, taking children to state homes for proper upbringing and even the Final Solution in Nazi Germany. The Swedes had a nice scandal in 2013 (?) when it was revealed that the police still kept a gypsy register, IIRC by conveniently interpreting some counter-terrorism paragrapgh to make it "legal". Then again, they only shut down their official "Z-register" in the 60s or there about.
The issues are similar, the two groups are at odds in many ways and I'm afraid unless one side changes alot, there is no change.
And there won't be, for the foreseeable future. One of my best friends is a Gypsy. His parents like many gypsies are hawkers by trade, selling clothes in weekly markets in different villages, a different one each day of the week.
He studied Computer engineering instead, played warhammer, and eventually married outside the group, which means that to many of his circle while growing up (and some in his family, not his parents though) he's a traitor. Much like those black people in America that get accused of "acting white" if they get a degree and a well-paying job.
So people keep identifying gypsies will the petty drug trade, scrap metal stealing or this gentleman:
For those who don't know Spanish, he hasn't worked a single day on his life, and has 36 sons by 4 different wives (one of which he married when she was 12) and they all live in an actual cave as a sort of clan in the mountains, living off welfare and the odd job. The article comes from social services taking 11 of his sons from him after allegations of physical and sexual abuse.
Sadly, yeah. He tried to earn a better life, and make somthing more stable and reliable. glad your freind managed to make good, and establish self as own person.
and your in the wrong, because the whole system keeps you down.
Like UK Irish Travllers, Very few on the TV shows , there women are there to serve the men,, barely any have any education post 16, or worse for women, some even worse. VS a growing a demand for modern skills, certificates, qualification and training.
that kind of culture, just is fire and ice to the others. and that causes violent reaction., with the education level too, that means many jobs, just not possible, thus making self furfilling circles that only bite deeper. the gap only grows ever slightly wider. its not peoples fault in a sense as all they know, yet it kind of is.. its very difficult, but the entire system is set up to self propigate. one looks down, the other has reason to hate, more fuel..
no one has any desire to break the loop on a larger scale.
As it stands now in UK.
You could not easily get a CSCS cardm without a fixed or atleast address of use, and attending a test centre etc, and thats a legal requirement for many basic labouring, and warehousing work.
alot of jobs, require certian things, even those looked down on by some need you to have certian stuff in order to even walk onto the place.
Many places will not hire without a proof of adress etc
its just not a good environment to be nomadic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/28 15:28:18
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Putting marginalized groups on a government list is one of the hallmarks of a free and progressive society.
Jeebus Italy, you miss one World Cup and the whole country loses it's damn mind.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
feeder wrote: Putting marginalized groups on a government list is one of the hallmarks of a free and progressive society.
Jeebus Italy, you miss one World Cup and the whole country loses it's damn mind.
Well, to be fair, most governments maintain lists of their people, including marginalised groups. Such lists are not inherently bad, they can be used to do good things as well and are quite necessary for an efficient government. It is what Italy wants that list for which is worrying.
Here we have hobos. A major problem in San Francisco.
Even saying it's a major problem is a bit of an understatement. Didn't California just rank as worst state in the country for homelessness and income inequality? I'll see if I can dig it up, but there was a video of a guy sweeping the sidewalks in front of his store. Every night homeless people use the storefronts as beds. Every morning he sweeps the sidewalk for three-store's to the left and right of him. He finds about half a dozen used syringes every morning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jouso wrote: [ One of my best friends is a Gypsy. His parents like many gypsies are hawkers by trade, selling clothes in weekly markets in different villages, a different one each day of the week.
He studied Computer engineering instead, played warhammer, and eventually married outside the group, which means that to many of his circle while growing up (and some in his family, not his parents though) he's a traitor. Much like those black people in America that get accused of "acting white" if they get a degree and a well-paying job.
feeder wrote: Putting marginalized groups on a government list is one of the hallmarks of a free and progressive society.
Jeebus Italy, you miss one World Cup and the whole country loses it's damn mind.
Well, to be fair, most governments maintain lists of their people, including marginalised groups. Such lists are not inherently bad, they can be used to do good things as well and are quite necessary for an efficient government. It is what Italy wants that list for which is worrying.
Lists are not inheriantly evil.
Its what you do with the information your gathering, how you choose to use what you gather.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
They also don't get goverment services in most countries.
To put this in perceptive, the Roma were a known presence in the 1600s and many laws go so far as to make exceptions for them in the case of murder - as in if you murdered one of the Roma it wasn't a punishable crime. The fact that so many of them were shipped off to Hitler's death camps probably hasn't inured them to the idea of government registration.
As someone in a part of the US that is so multicultural it's always weird to see how quickly my European born comrades will chasten us native-born Americans on our failures for human rights but then a few minutes later talk about the need to 'eliminate all those roma back home'. It's like they don't see them as human beings.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
They also don't get goverment services in most countries.
To put this in perceptive, the Roma were a known presence in the 1600s and many laws go so far as to make exceptions for them in the case of murder - as in if you murdered one of the Roma it wasn't a punishable crime. The fact that so many of them were shipped off to Hitler's death camps probably hasn't inured them to the idea of government registration.
As someone in a part of the US that is so multicultural it's always weird to see how quickly my European born comrades will chasten us native-born Americans on our failures for human rights but then a few minutes later talk about the need to 'eliminate all those roma back home'. It's like they don't see them as human beings.
To be honest, a lot of Europeans indeed don't really see Roma as full human beings. Especially in Eastern Europe there is a long way to go in the fight against racism and discrimination. Complaining about how bad and horrible the US is may be one of Europe's favourite pastimes, but Europe is far from innocent and perfect itself. Which is why it is good we can chastise one another I guess. True friendship
Okay, I might need to thread the needle with this one. Be warned, I am in NO WAY trying to be bigoted here to any particular group.
I sometimes find that it is hard to mention that a particular segment of society has problems without someone trying to rebuke it with a "you only think that because you're bigoted".
To some extent I can see how it might look that way. When there are societies within societies, it is easy for a majority to focus on a certain feature and stereotype the heck out of it. This makes integration hard. The minority group doesn't want to be like the group that hates them and the majority doesn't want to accept those they dislike.
Roma are different, and as a social group there are things they REALLY need to improve upon. Even if these things were once used as a tool to deny them service, admitting that there is a problem should still be addressed.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
They also don't get goverment services in most countries.
It's rather the other way around. Most roma are full registered citizens, and get the same services everyone else does. Only the more recent arrivals from the Balkans (FYROM, Serbia, Kosovo, etc.) do not have any kind of documents.
If you listen to the most popular complaints about having gypsy neighbours (disrupting school classes, hogging health services, having a ton of children and living off welfare) don't square with them being unregistered and not getting government services.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
They also don't get goverment services in most countries.
To put this in perceptive, the Roma were a known presence in the 1600s and many laws go so far as to make exceptions for them in the case of murder - as in if you murdered one of the Roma it wasn't a punishable crime. The fact that so many of them were shipped off to Hitler's death camps probably hasn't inured them to the idea of government registration.
As someone in a part of the US that is so multicultural it's always weird to see how quickly my European born comrades will chasten us native-born Americans on our failures for human rights but then a few minutes later talk about the need to 'eliminate all those roma back home'. It's like they don't see them as human beings.
To be honest, a lot of Europeans indeed don't really see Roma as full human beings. Especially in Eastern Europe there is a long way to go in the fight against racism and discrimination. Complaining about how bad and horrible the US is may be one of Europe's favourite pastimes, but Europe is far from innocent and perfect itself. Which is why it is good we can chastise one another I guess. True friendship
Yeah, being hypocrites isn't exclusive to people in the US, plenty of Europeans are exactly the same as the people they complain about. You probably just hear about it less because your media is less focussed on every single European country compared to how our media reports on the US, plus the language barrier means its easier for most Europeans to pick up what goes on in the US compared to the other way around. I mean, did you even hear about this in the US media or would you have to dig for some small article somewhere?
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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People used to say the same things about Irish people in the past, you know.
They are saying them now. Europe's financial crisis and our lack of housing have driven many youth abroad. We aren't always sending our best- though my cousins in Australia are lovely, we have exported an awful lot of drunken disorderly louts. So much so that 'Irish need not apply' is becoming a thing again. Then there was that scam, run by Irish backpackers conning people out of money.
People used to say the same things about Irish people in the past, you know.
They are saying them now. Europe's financial crisis and our lack of housing have driven many youth abroad. We aren't always sending our best- though my cousins in Australia are lovely, we have exported an awful lot of drunken disorderly louts. So much so that 'Irish need not apply' is becoming a thing again. Then there was that scam, run by Irish backpackers conning people out of money.
Marlene Kairouz did nothing wrong when she warned elderly people to beware of Irish people they didn't know.
If spanish people would change our relations with english people based in the relations and interactions we have with all the english drunkarts and hoolligans that come in summer to Ibiza and Benidorm, we would need to start a war
Not saying stereotipes haven't their own amounth of truth. A culture is a culture, and even if not all Roma are the same, they have strong cultural trends that collide with our society. But theres a difference between being cautious (Just like you would be with a white guy that approaches you in a dark alley in the night), and just marking a giant X in a full group of people as dangerous criminals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/29 13:41:23
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Iron_Captain wrote: Well, they have lived in Europe for almost a thousand years now, so yeah I'd say they are pretty native. But many of them are undocumented since they refuse registration (and racist authorities don't really feel like doing anything to change that) and therefore officially stateless.
It just seems odd that a culture as a whole has decided to live under the radar for 1000 years (or maybe more recent occurrence). Ultimately it's bad for them.
I am assuming that being unregistered they don't pay taxes?
They also don't get goverment services in most countries.
It's rather the other way around. Most roma are full registered citizens, and get the same services everyone else does. Only the more recent arrivals from the Balkans (FYROM, Serbia, Kosovo, etc.) do not have any kind of documents.
If you listen to the most popular complaints about having gypsy neighbours (disrupting school classes, hogging health services, having a ton of children and living off welfare) don't square with them being unregistered and not getting government services.
It is different in different countries. Spain and most Northern European countries have a pretty decent administration. Here in the Netherlands too, most gypsies are registered citizens (although here too, they still tend to be antisocial). But in Italy and especially in Eastern Europe the situation is very different.
cuda1179 wrote: We'd likely have to dig. I honestly didn't even have an idea the Italian government had gotten so wacko, let alone having ideas like this.
Not sure why you'd need to dig. The current Italian government's issues have been big and bold, and even made headlines and nightly news shows in the US, especially on migrant and immigration issues.
cuda1179 wrote: We'd likely have to dig. I honestly didn't even have an idea the Italian government had gotten so wacko, let alone having ideas like this.
Not sure why you'd need to dig. The current Italian government's issues have been big and bold, and even made headlines and nightly news shows in the US, especially on migrant and immigration issues.
The kind of news outlet that covers this has enough material with Trump to cover more than a passing mention on Italy's own.
He thinks the EU is ripping Italy off, spends most of the time speaking about immigration, admires Putin, etc it's as close to a carbon copy as you'll get.
jhe90 wrote: There's problems here but there far more complicated.
Roma, or any other names, Travers, Gypsy, Irish Gypsy, all these groups have over time due to some bad elements gained a somewhat negative reputation. Now the fact they do not want to integrate at times and others only want them gone.
Both sides reinforce the situation everyone's in. It's a self fur filing prohpicey. Why care, if the hate you. Why help if they trash your land.
The issues are similar, the two groups are at odds in many ways and I'm afraid unless one side changes alot, there is no change.
The issue I have with the "both sides" narrative is that it's rarely the travellers who gak their pants and pull out all the stops to block any and all compromises. A while ago some councils in Scotland tried to put together a plan to have a network of sites with basic electrical and sanitary hookups put up in the various "traditional" stopping points for traveller communities, not to force them to integrate or anything like that, but just as a basic "OK, you want to live a nomadic life, and the people where you pitch up don't want to deal with the aftermath, so we'll provide these facilities for you to use as you like" compromise. The reaction from travellers seemed to be pretty positive, but it never got anywhere because the "gypsies are all just manky thieving scum and we should send 'em back where they came fr....ahem, I mean travellers are a troublesome element and we must find a solution that's fair to everyone..." crowd blocked every attempt to move forward.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
waste of human skin. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a lot of popular pushback against it either inside or outside. I think its on seriously shaky ground and how will you deport people who are 
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