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If it is claimed that Emps was "born" around 8,000BC, this can clearly be just the first recorded "sighting" of him and the story has changed over time to say he was "born". To further this theory, this claim can simply be attributed to facts becoming distorted over time.
This first sighting of Emps could simply be "The old one's" first interaction with humanity as he began to guide them.
I like this theory. And there are easy ways to "reinterpret" existing canon backstory elements.
Well, He did kill His uncle. So He was definitely born. I believe that was always in the original lore too that even if He was the result of shamanic jiggery pokerey he still took a year or so for his soul to glue together and then be born to human parents.
I don’t see why theoretically He couldn’t be an old one that decided to be reborn in some way as they were meant to be psychic
He has a/several stories on his origin but I think GW has stated that even if it is written in a codex and black library book it does not have to be true. And even if we took what a character experience as truth in a black library book I don't think the Emperor has ever been a POV character. He have told others (Ra in Master of Mankind) of his origin but that might be made up for what Ra and we know. I am of the opinion that the Emperor has one origin but we cant know for sure what it is. Maybe he is a Old one. Maybe he is the collected reincarnation of all shamans (think that was quite early fluff). Maybe he is what a character in Master of Mankind believes, a weapon out of his box created during the Age of Technology (love this idea).
We can have theories but a singular truth will be hard to get since we don't get stories about him as Leonardo da Vinci that could confirm part of his age and rule out some theories while still not deciding on a specific truth. We know when he appeared publicly, what he looks like to a blank, that he is the most powerful psyker currently existing, that he LOOKS human. But we cannot really be 100% sure about his background before the Great Crusade and I find the discussions around theories to be more interesting then the truth. The idea that he is an Old one could be true, would explain some stuff, not explain others but it is a good one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 20:26:22
They told me i was crazy, that i could not win with an army list like that. 2000 points later i found out that they were right
I find how SoS see the Emperor very weird. It seems unlikely Blanks completely block all psychic powers they're near and disable beings of power like the Emperor otherwise you could chuck one at the Eye of Terror and watch Chaos die.
So my theory is that the Blanks are enough to stop a lot of the Emperor's illusions but the individual Blank can't perceive what the Emperor actually is because either there's enough residual illusory power to stop it or their brains can't grasp what the Emperor's true form is.
So they see an old tired man because that fits their perception of the Emperor.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: I find how SoS see the Emperor very weird. It seems unlikely Blanks completely block all psychic powers they're near and disable beings of power like the Emperor otherwise you could chuck one at the Eye of Terror and watch Chaos die.
So my theory is that the Blanks are enough to stop a lot of the Emperor's illusions but the individual Blank can't perceive what the Emperor actually is because either there's enough residual illusory power to stop it or their brains can't grasp what the Emperor's true form is.
So they see an old tired man because that fits their perception of the Emperor.
It is true that strong enough psychic powers work through the null field generated by blanks. We see this on many occasions. But I have never once heard in the lore of blanks being affected by psychic illusions or spells. Tzeentch himself could cast a spell on a blank or use an illusion and it would fail because blanks have no "soul" within the warp.
I am of the opinion that the SOS are actually seeing the emperor's true physical form with all of the psychic grandeur stripped away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 01:01:49
I’m not keen on the idea that The Emperor is a tired looking old man. He was always described as youthful looking but with ageless eyes. Eyes being the window to the soul ... which He says aren’t real.
Maybe the whole sun glare thing that a lot of people see is stripped away because they can’t see it.
But we have to remember that blanks have been burned out by psykers before. It makes me wonder how a supernova of power like The Emperor doesn’t make all the blanks near him go pop.
Galef wrote: If it is claimed that Emps was "born" around 8,000BC, this can clearly be just the first recorded "sighting" of him and the story has changed over time to say he was "born". To further this theory, this claim can simply be attributed to facts becoming distorted over time.
This first sighting of Emps could simply be "The old one's" first interaction with humanity as he began to guide them.
I like this theory. And there are easy ways to "reinterpret" existing canon backstory elements.
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This was my thinking too. Also, I don't see his failure to destroy the Necrons as a major hindrance. Perhaps the plan was to restore the webway, knowing that the Great Crusade wasn't nearly powerful enough to defeat the Necrons without it. Or, perhaps, he decided having the Necrons around to help combat Chaos wouldn't be the worst thing. Really, there are any number of things that could explain this too.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
In Master of Mankind Big E did show one of the custodes a vision of him as a child killing his uncle but... Ra? admitted the Emps could have just been showing him something he needed to see and that it probably didn't happen.
They intentionally wrote it so the 8000bc thing might not actually be dead set fact.
I’m fairly sure that He (along with the other immortal humans) are merely an evolutionary accident that fortunately have various skills and abilities. I doubt He’s an old one. I don’t even think the Old ones have been portrayed in universe in any way and their technology or ruins of their civilisation have never featured in any novels, have they?
Honestly you can still do whatever you want with the Emperor's origin. For instance you could take a story of his origin and mix an old one in. Many shamans sacrificed their lives to lead to the birth of the Emperor. They did this not by pouring their power into a vessel but by going on a spirit quest to gather the shards of a broken old one and unified it into a still developing baby. Carrying a bit of an old one's soul burned these shaman out with its power and they died.
pm713 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?
I believe the lore now states that the old ones created a number of psychic races to combat their enemy, the Necrons. This includes the Orks and Humans, though they favored the Eldar.
This act in turn brought about Chaos as we know it. All the psychic energy from these new races fueled the power of the primordial annihilator, where during the old ones reign the warp was much calmer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 16:01:07
pm713 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?
I believe the lore now states that the old ones created a number of psychic races to combat their enemy, the Necrons. This includes the Orks and Humans, though they favored the Eldar.
This act in turn brought about Chaos as we know it. All the psychic energy from these new races fueled the power of the primordial annihilator, where during the old ones reign the warp was much calmer.
The Old ones did not create humans, their war with the necrons ended 40 million years ago and they dissapeared. 40 million years ago is before human-like primates showed up on the earth according to fossil records.
It's why the eldar have so much disdain for us, it's because we evolved naturally and we are 'mon-keigh' (monkeys) to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 16:52:30
pm713 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?
Actually there is lore that supposedly Slaanesh tracked down the last Old One, shattered it, scattered it throughout the galaxy so it could still bear witness to what happened to the galaxy, and it's fragments became the Umbra. Of course this might not have been the last one because the Tau background. Even if this was completely true though, it would mean the Old Ones were around still when humans came about.
Ye olden necron codex suggests using models and rules of lizardmen to represent some degenerate Old Ones, though some homebrewing has to be made to fit them into 40k
pm713 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?
I believe the lore now states that the old ones created a number of psychic races to combat their enemy, the Necrons. This includes the Orks and Humans, though they favored the Eldar.
This act in turn brought about Chaos as we know it. All the psychic energy from these new races fueled the power of the primordial annihilator, where during the old ones reign the warp was much calmer.
The Old ones did not create humans, their war with the necrons ended 40 million years ago and they dissapeared. 40 million years ago is before human-like primates showed up on the earth according to fossil records.
It's why the eldar have so much disdain for us, it's because we evolved naturally and we are 'mon-keigh' (monkeys) to them.
Mon keigh is all younger races and the disdain is from the fact humanity are giant donkey-caves in 40k. I thought it was pronounced Mon-Kay as in hay.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
It's for all younger races but I think it's used as more of an insult the same way me calling someone a child is an insult depending on how it's meant.
How would Slaanesh even be around for an Old One? They'd have to survive the Necrons, be around for the rise, stasis and fall of the Eldar Empire, do nothing as the Eldar gods are devoured then be killed.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Except warhammer really has no canon, by GW own admission
In the words of Marc Gascoigne:
Spoiler:
"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
and here's Gav Thorpes take on the subject:
Spoiler:
"(…) is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike."
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
https://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/
and another good one from Marc Gascogne:
Spoiler:
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/heresy-black-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/
I've always hated some of those lines. There's definitely a consistent canon like the backstory of the Imperium for example. Claiming there isn't comes across as they can't be bothered to keep things together.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I don't see how refusing the responsibility of a canon encourages fans to explore it. Everything I've got in my fanons fits in with or without their canon except I use oldcrons and shamelessly ripped a planet out of Star Trek.....
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I thought there was fluff about Eldar manipulating, or at least studying, Mankind as it developed?
Also, note that Mon'keigh means 'sea slime', not 'monkey'. As in that nasty gunk that shows up everywhere in this broad ocean.
The Old Ones "left" the galaxy to the Eldar in that the Old Ones were destroyed by the C'tan and their own Warp-based antics. The Necrons in theory won the War in Heaven, but retreated, leaving Eldar to dominate the galaxy. However, over the millions of years between the War in Heaven and the Fall, while the Eldar did dominate the galaxy, they didn't colonize and expand the way Mankind did in a short period. The Eldar empire owned the galaxy, only really developed worlds within what is now the Eye.
It's possible one Old One survived, and planned on guiding the Eldar to take back the galaxy. But when that was clearly going sideways (leadup to the Fall), it moved on to the next likely race: Mankind. That'd put the Emperor's birth at about the right time for the Old One to move on to humanity.
I'm gonna claim it's Morag-hai. Obviously, schemed to survive the Fall. Slanesh can believe it killed her, for all she cares. She has a new faction.
Or so she thought. Tau are gonna work out better. Especially after she had to play dead for so long.
No, I don't actually believe this, but I like my tangential theory here.
2018/08/01 00:29:54
Subject: Re:The Emperor, an exiled Old One incognito
I love those quotes and they sum up the way the universe is viewed by me. They aren’t being lazy they are leaving enough room for those of us who like the older stuff or want to use more obscure theories. I think it is definitely possible that the emperor wasn’t human. He was always something “other” and superior. We know so little about the old ones that it is entirely possible. Do I think it matters? Not really. It’s what he has done and continues to do is what defines him. 40k needs more conspiracies and questions marks.
First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks 
largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled 
most complete and painted 
beautiful models, couldn't resist 
the swarm will consume all
nothing new since 5th edition 
oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders 
in need of love 
