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phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Power grab for the selfish and the slight issue that would devastate the Imperium.

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Because the people who know that he is a perpetual are all dead, or understand the purpose of the Throne (ensuring the planet isn't ripped in half by the broken webway portal), and so don't want him to come back.

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Seeing as the Emperor on the Golden Throne is supposedly the only thing keeping the daemons on the other side of the door in the Imperial Palace, those are 10 minutes you don't have.

The other aspect is that the Imperium is in an extreme state of decadence and bureaucratic madness with a heavy dose of religion as well.

Basically there's enough people in positions of power who either have a vested interest in keeping things as they are so that their own corruption and power are not harmed; or they are fanatical to the point where they adhere to ancient rites and rules (the reasons for which long forgotten) without question and that to question or change what is done is akin to heresy.
And on top of that the choice to do anything massive like that would likely have to go through so much red-tape that it would take an insane amount of time to be approved (and that is assuming no one opposed it at any stage).

 Lord Perversor wrote:
Yet we have the Ynnari in Gathering Storm claiming the very same as Dark eldar.

You know, that's interesting the Ynnari said 'He's stone dead', because didn't Yvarine snap her fingers and resurrect some thousand sons from literal piles of dust? If anyone could help resuscitate Big-E, it would be them.

pm713 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Power grab for the selfish and the slight issue that would devastate the Imperium.

The whole point is he only gone for minutes. That's a rapid power grab, especially when forces of the imperium are in disarray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Because the people who know that he is a perpetual are all dead, or understand the purpose of the Throne (ensuring the planet isn't ripped in half by the broken webway portal), and so don't want him to come back.

The Emperor himself knew though and told Dorn to help him to the throne. In my mind he should have just said "Rogal, give us 10 minutes and I'll be back, don't tell anyone I died though."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Seeing as the Emperor on the Golden Throne is supposedly the only thing keeping the daemons on the other side of the door in the Imperial Palace, those are 10 minutes you don't have.

It wouldn't have been an issue if he'd never interred himself though. If he'd let himself die after the battle with Horus and was back promptly enough it wouldn't have been an issue.

phillv85 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Power grab for the selfish and the slight issue that would devastate the Imperium.

The whole point is he only gone for minutes. That's a rapid power grab, especially when forces of the imperium are in disarray.

His return would likely spark a huge wave of people getting bumped off for various reasons. So there'd be a huge selection of people angling for their own benefit and a lot of power struggles. The Emperor might rule all, but underneath there's a huge amount of power and control that people would be fighting over like mad.

phillv85 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Seeing as the Emperor on the Golden Throne is supposedly the only thing keeping the daemons on the other side of the door in the Imperial Palace, those are 10 minutes you don't have.

It wouldn't have been an issue if he'd never interred himself though. If he'd let himself die after the battle with Horus and was back promptly enough it wouldn't have been an issue.

Doubtful though, Malcador was already burned out by the time they put the Emperor in. So they never had those 10 minutes even then.

 Overread wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Power grab for the selfish and the slight issue that would devastate the Imperium.

The whole point is he only gone for minutes. That's a rapid power grab, especially when forces of the imperium are in disarray.

His return would likely spark a huge wave of people getting bumped off for various reasons. So there'd be a huge selection of people angling for their own benefit and a lot of power struggles. The Emperor might rule all, but underneath there's a huge amount of power and control that people would be fighting over like mad.

That makes sense, a lot of people do stand to lose a lot of power should he come back.

pm713 wrote:
That bad?

it's not abd at all, I rather enjoyed the book, it's differant from your standard bolter porn though, it's a very "street level of terra" look and not every 40k fan is going to enjoy that. also it proably doesn't help that people are going to be comparing it to the Eisenhorn novels.

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

I always thought it was because Horus dealt the emperor a mortal wound, as in mortal wound even to a perpetual. Perpetuals CAN die permanently, its happened multiple times in the lore, and Horus killed Ollanius Pius so we know he had the power to permanently kill perpetuals.

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Think of the devastation on the Imperium with just 10 years without the astronomicum, it would give chaos the perfect time to strike. Terra wouldn't last, terra needs a constant supply of resources, if It was attacked, no forces would be able to be mustered for its defense.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Think of the devastation on the Imperium with just 10 years without the astronomicum, it would give chaos the perfect time to strike. Terra wouldn't last, terra needs a constant supply of resources, if It was attacked, no forces would be able to be mustered for its defense.

this, the Imperium can't manage a "slight hault to the astronomicon for a few years"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I never understood why with the Emperor being a perpetual they didn't just let him die and come back in one piece shortly after his death. I mean I know because the plot is all hope is gone, but surely it's better he's dead for 10 minutes than on life support for 10 millennia.

Think of the devastation on the Imperium with just 10 years without the astronomicum, it would give chaos the perfect time to strike. Terra wouldn't last, terra needs a constant supply of resources, if It was attacked, no forces would be able to be mustered for its defense.

this, the Imperium can't manage a "slight hault to the astronomicon for a few years"

How are you going to feed Terra when no supply ships can enter the sol system in order to deliver the food for them to eat. All food and resources are 'sent' to terra, it has no biomass on the planet. Forget 10 years, 1 year is probably enough for a catastrophe. Then outside the Sol system, the Imperiums armies would be isolated, unable yo travel. Chaos can take any planet they want, there will be no reinforcements, they could take large parts of the galaxy, fortifying the systems they take, especially now with the great rift, it would be the end of the Imperium. Terra would also will not be able to hold back the forces of Chaos, which is what the Emperor does, without the Emperor, Terra would be invaded by Chaos.

How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

phillv85 wrote:
How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

Yeah me too, Vulkan seemed to recover very fast when Cruze kept trying to kill him.

It depends how you kill them. The Emperor's body is 99.9% dead so it'll take a while.

And the Emperor made Vulkan, I'm sure he'd easily be able to kill him if he needed to, especially since fulgurite designed to kill Vulkan was able to because it was the Emperors lightning that caused it, Imagine what the Emperor himself would do if somehow they ended up fighting. I think its a bit silly to say Vulkan can 'never' die.

phillv85 wrote:
How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

It depends on the wound. Some wounds can kill perpetuals permanently, it has happened in the lore a few times.

It seems to be much less the wound and much more the weapon. You can tear a Perpetual into tiny chunks with a spoon and he'll be fine. Do the same with a diresword (for example) and they die after the first stab.

pm713 wrote:
It seems to be much less the wound and much more the weapon. You can tear a Perpetual into tiny chunks with a spoon and he'll be fine. Do the same with a diresword (for example) and they die after the first stab.

Yup its completely about the weapon. The fulgarite used against any other person is just a normal spear.

Once all the loyalist Primarchs are back and GW need a new huge kit to sell to Imperial players, they probably will be.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Once all the loyalist Primarchs are back and GW need a new huge kit to sell to Imperial players, they probably will be.

so in 20 years? right now we've only got Gulliman and just Gulliman. at this rate it'll be close to two decades before the loyalist primarchs all return

 Overread wrote:
*random theory moment*

We all know Tyranids are drawn to the Emperor like moths to a flame and one Hive Fleet is building something on a planetary scale (rather than just consuming the world and moving on). Could it be that the Tyranids sense the failing of the Golden Throne and will sweep in with a vast Hive Fleet invasion and steal the Emperor and his Golden Throne and insert it into their twisted strange world to produce a new, more powerful beacon to call more of their kind from the darkness in space between Galaxies!

Tyranids weren't drawn to the Milky Way by the Astronomicon, they were drawn to it when some marines in the Horus Heresy accidentally set off a Necron Tachyon beacon-thing that alerted the Hive Mind to the existence of life in the Milky Way Galaxy.

IIRC the Heresy beacon started them coming to this galaxy but now they're close enough to be aiming for the Astronomican.

phillv85 wrote:
How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

It also seems to vary depending on the Perpetual. Vulkan seems to regenerate Dr Who-style while Alivia Sureka simply reappears quite some distance from the point of her death.

If the Emperor thought that humanity could cope without him for however long it would take to return, would he have his internment in the Golden Throne? I suspect not. I see one of 3 possibilities.

1. His return would take too long and the demonic incursions on Terra from the broken webway gate would be to catastropic to the Imperium since Terra hosts both the Astronomicon and the main choir of Astropaths.
2. The wounds dealt by juiced-up Horus are fatal, even to him.
3. With the webway gate in ruins, the only hope for humanity is for him to actually ascend to god-hood (despite the idea apparently being abhorrent to him).

 Karhedron wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

It also seems to vary depending on the Perpetual. Vulkan seems to regenerate Dr Who-style while Alivia Sureka simply reappears quite some distance from the point of her death.

If the Emperor thought that humanity could cope without him for however long it would take to return, would he have his internment in the Golden Throne? I suspect not. I see one of 3 possibilities.

1. His return would take too long and the demonic incursions on Terra from the broken webway gate would be to catastropic to the Imperium since Terra hosts both the Astronomicon and the main choir of Astropaths.
2. The wounds dealt by juiced-up Horus are fatal, even to him.
3. With the webway gate in ruins, the only hope for humanity is for him to actually ascend to god-hood (despite the idea apparently being abhorrent to him).

I think option 2 is pretty clearly true considering the entire point of Horus is that he is in fact able to pose a serious threat to the Emperor - thus he must possess the means to inflict fatal wounds upon the Emperor that he can't simply respawn from. Which isn't much of a leap at all as there are in fact weapons that can threaten perpetuals, and it's silly to think the Chaos Gods themselves would be incapable of making such a weapon.

Carrion Throne was one of the best novels I’ve ever read!

Russ will save The Emperor when he comes back with the Tree of Life ... which probably won’t be an actual tree but some kind of ancient machine thing with “roots”

 Karhedron wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
How long does it take perpetual to recover from a mortal wound? I thought it was measured more like minutes and hours than years or decades.

It also seems to vary depending on the Perpetual. Vulkan seems to regenerate Dr Who-style while Alivia Sureka simply reappears quite some distance from the point of her death.

If the Emperor thought that humanity could cope without him for however long it would take to return, would he have his internment in the Golden Throne? I suspect not. I see one of 3 possibilities.

1. His return would take too long and the demonic incursions on Terra from the broken webway gate would be to catastropic to the Imperium since Terra hosts both the Astronomicon and the main choir of Astropaths.
2. The wounds dealt by juiced-up Horus are fatal, even to him.
3. With the webway gate in ruins, the only hope for humanity is for him to actually ascend to god-hood (despite the idea apparently being abhorrent to him).

I too think the second is by far the most likely.

Again, Horus demonstrated his ability to permanently kill perpetuals when he struck down Ollanius Pius.

Can the eldar or the Harliquins fix the web gate? So terra isn't immediately devoured by deamons?

If not then oh well. There are lots of worlds.