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The actual reason why Rhino looks bad - because it performs a lot of roles that don't have rules on tabletop. It has a lot of stuff going for it in fluff, and is in fact better in that respect than most modern vehicles.

Out of universe, the reason why it's garbage is simple - M113, its real life equivalent, is colossal PoS on wheels so terrible anything based on it sucks, no matter how much lipstick you'll put on it

BrianDavion wrote:
the Rhino and Chimera aren't really things that can be compared, the Rhino is an APC, the Chimeria is an IFV, differant tools for differant jobs. The rhino is a cheap reliable platform to haul troops into the field with min imal cost and fuss, the Chimeria meanwhile is intended as a mobile fireplatform. the Chimeria is better compared to the Razorback.

Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 (and better than Rhino because BTRs were far superior vehicles to anything USA produced at the time, making its fictional equivalent better design too). It can transport a full squad, for one. IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

 Peregrine wrote:
This is probably part of it too. Rhinos aren't bad at their job, so it's not like they're being crippled with a trash unit, but they don't get to have units that are better at different roles. Space marines have to have transport vehicles, but they don't have to have tanks that can go up against a LRBT squadron and expect to win. The Rhino fills the required transport role without creating the danger of a space marine chapter winning a tank battle without support from IG allies.

Heh. Maybe that was fluff once, but have you read Angels of Death? Specifically, the page describing how a SM company took on thousands of IG vehicles and won?

I always thought a Chimera was a BMP (all it needs is a hunter-killer missile over the gun), which is a IFV.

Since the Chimera was introduced after the heresy, maybe the effort to modify it for SM use and the logistical cost of another hull type made it more logical to keep the Rhino. As the Rhino shares the same hull as most of the SM support vehicles.

Irbis wrote:Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 [...] IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

The definition of a IFV does not include that it has to have half a squad. That's only in your head, i guess, because the Bradley can only manage to fit half a squad...
APC - armored (against small arms fire at least) and usually has self defense weaponry against light threats, task is to transport infantry and supplies.
IFV - armored and weaponry for a wider threat range. BMP and BRDM are IFV. Task is to transport infantry and stay with them in the fire fight for support. Chimera is exactly that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle
Also, why can only autocannon provide fire support? That's silly. Even a vehicle mounted Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer (with the ammunition for long salvos) is a considerable force multiplier to a bunch of men carrying flashlights and the odd special or heavy weapon, that has very limited ammo because its carried on foot.

Tygre wrote:
I always thought a Chimera was a BMP (all it needs is a hunter-killer missile over the gun), which is a IFV.

Word

Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

Where do you got the figure of 8" penetration of Heavy bolters from?
I dont disagree about "not small arms" but i disagree about "19mm autocannon". If Bolters would be like autocannons, there would be no need for autocannons. Bolters are famously short barreled and in no way hypersonic, their limited range compared to autocannons is a good indication of that.
Bolters are more like a cross between automatic grenade launcher and Heavy machine gun in terms of use, and cross between projectile weapon and rocket propelled grenade in terms of technology. Higher velocity and lower arcing than grenade launcher, but lower payload than that - so they require hitting the target directly for their damage, instead of relying on fragmentation like grenadelaunchers do.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

 Irbis wrote:
Um, wrong. Chimera is an APC, albeit heavily armed one, much like BTR-80 (and better than Rhino because BTRs were far superior vehicles to anything USA produced at the time, making its fictional equivalent better design too). It can transport a full squad, for one. IFVs are things like Razorback, with half a squad and heavy guns used for fire support (which Chimera, besides arguably autocannon variant, can't do).

So the Razorback is an IFV with twin heavy bolters, while the Chimera and its twin heavy bolters (or HB + AC, HB + multilaser, etc) and 6x lasguns is only an APC because it doesn't have enough firepower. Makes complete sense.

Heh. Maybe that was fluff once, but have you read Angels of Death? Specifically, the page describing how a SM company took on thousands of IG vehicles and won?

I think it's pretty clear that idiocy of that magnitude is not canon.

 Keep wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Also in what world is a 'friggin bolter not large enough to count as fire support? Even the "lowly" combi bolter isn't small arms, it's a 19mm autocannon firing a hypersonic round at distances of multiple kilometers if terrain permits. Hitting with the kinetic energy of a modern autocannon twice or even greater in firepower, and that's before you add in the explosive warhead of a bolt that contains enough energy to gouge holes in plasteel and send several hundred pound objects flying through the air.

Heavy bolters? All of that except 25mm and with greater reliability with sustained fire. Even by Imperial Guard standards the (heavy) bolter isn't small arms considering its ability to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel which makes even a normal Rhino a credible threat to something like a Chimera.

Where do you got the figure of 8" penetration of Heavy bolters from?
I dont disagree about "not small arms" but i disagree about "19mm autocannon". If Bolters would be like autocannons, there would be no need for autocannons. Bolters are famously short barreled and in no way hypersonic, their limited range compared to autocannons is a good indication of that.
Bolters are more like a cross between automatic grenade launcher and Heavy machine gun in terms of use, and cross between projectile weapon and rocket propelled grenade in terms of technology. Higher velocity and lower arcing than grenade launcher, but lower payload than that - so they require hitting the target directly for their damage, instead of relying on fragmentation like grenadelaunchers do.

Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

Also while we don't know how durable plasteel is, we at least know that it's tensile strength is ~260 times superior to normal conventional steel. Wraithbone is put at being 1,000 times stronger than steel, and 8mm of Wraithbone is equivalent level of protection to 30mm of Plasteel. That gives us the result of of Plasteel being over 200x+ "stronger" than your normal RL steel. Which makes sense that it has some crazy performance levels seeing as Plasteel armored tanks can survive getting hit with multi-meltas.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Just to point out that in IRL definitions a gun has to be 20mm or bigger to be called a cannon.

So bolters might not be, but heavy bolters would be.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Are you seriously trying to imply only the new 40k fluff is over the top and unrealistic? might wanna take off the rose coloured glasses man

Hrm.

I remember the day when inconsistencies in the fluff were regarded as ironic, in-universe propaganda and 40k players knew better than to "trust the author" or "expect common sense" with regard to how things actually worked in the game.

It makes complete sense that bolters would be described as the most powerful weapons in the universe, considering the reverence with which the IG treats their lasguns.

What Peregrine calls idiocy is what many used to call the reason to play 40k. It's not like the models on the table have ever lived up to the canon established in the fluff.

Ignoring the ballistics and penetration argument (which will never be solved), the Rhino makes sense to me. A quasi-modular, simple, robust, and reliable(?) transport vehicle. If you're simply moving Marines around you won't be wasting a Thunderhawk or a Land Raider, or anything fast and crazy and super-fighty. You just need a tin box to stop the occasional bullets...and you need to shuttle infantry long distances.

If we're to believe the Horus Heresy books it's entirely possible for Space Marines to be on a planet for months at a time, so you're not going to burn precious fuel in a Thunderhawk to move a couple squads 20-200 kilometers away. Also a Rhino could be used in the field to carry additional supplies, extra ammunition, probably has a stronger communications system than the suits, etc.

A lot of your assumptions are correct (See Imperial Armour II0. As a box to sit in and be driven about a battlefield, and gun platform, a chimera is superior.

As a combat vehicle, the rhino is superior because of a lot of things not featured in a relatively simplified 6-turn tabletop wargame.

Chimera has a thicker glacis plate on the front but the side armor of a Rhino is better, it has better smart comms, gear for recharging powered plate, more on board weapon and ammo space, a much better ability to cope with hostile environments (not as in 'a river' but as in 'a planet with an acid atmosphere'...)

Basically, it's a better mobile base of operations for 10 marines, who are the primary fighting power.

It's also easy to build and maintain, despite being 'astartes tech level', which is why chapters can easily build and maintain them themselves, even newly established chapters, those short of resources and chapters not on good terms with mars.

Essentially akin to why the lasgun is so awesome. Try using one in the 40k RPGs or necromunda, where the 60 round magazine/reliable rule/2+ ammo role applies, and you understand why an army which needs simple logistics and weight of numbers has basically worshipped the 'flashlight' for ten millenia....


Rhino crew aren't part of the squad - in the original fluff (Codex: Ultramarines!) crewing battle company rhinos is one of the jobs the reserve companies do. Remember that the actual 'deployed' force of a chapter is those 4 battle companys, with the odd bolt-on bit of armory tanks, reserve, scout or veteran squads.

Hence most company-scale expeditons can manage a battle barge, because there's rarely more than 2-3 at once.


The astartes fleet is powerful, but it is supposed to be limited in tactical design (hence, as noted, the Nova-class frigate causes much ruction with the navy as it in no way fits the 'planetary assault' role of the astartes), but there are exceptions.

The nova-class is one, whilst the ultramarines seditio opprimere (a battle barge) is essentially a naval capitalship (re)built by whoever came up with the terminus ultra land raider (we'll replace those wepons with lances, and those, and those...)

The wolves do have an oversize fleet. but they have an oversize chapter, too. They're not an old-style legion, but fenris is home to something equivalent to up to half a dozen 'proper' chapters (great companies are distinctly bigger than normal companies and there are twelve of them, not ten) so a fleet ~ 3 times a codex chapters is hardly out of place.

locarno24 wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are correct (See Imperial Armour II0. As a box to sit in and be driven about a battlefield, and gun platform, a chimera is superior.

As a combat vehicle, the rhino is superior because of a lot of things not featured in a relatively simplified 6-turn tabletop wargame.

Chimera has a thicker glacis plate on the front but the side armor of a Rhino is better, it has better smart comms, gear for recharging powered plate, more on board weapon and ammo space, a much better ability to cope with hostile environments (not as in 'a river' but as in 'a planet with an acid atmosphere'...)

Basically, it's a better mobile base of operations for 10 marines, who are the primary fighting power.

It's also easy to build and maintain, despite being 'astartes tech level', which is why chapters can easily build and maintain them themselves, even newly established chapters, those short of resources and chapters not on good terms with mars.

Essentially akin to why the lasgun is so awesome. Try using one in the 40k RPGs or necromunda, where the 60 round magazine/reliable rule/2+ ammo role applies, and you understand why an army which needs simple logistics and weight of numbers has basically worshipped the 'flashlight' for ten millenia....


Rhino crew aren't part of the squad - in the original fluff (Codex: Ultramarines!) crewing battle company rhinos is one of the jobs the reserve companies do. Remember that the actual 'deployed' force of a chapter is those 4 battle companys, with the odd bolt-on bit of armory tanks, reserve, scout or veteran squads.

Hence most company-scale expeditons can manage a battle barge, because there's rarely more than 2-3 at once.


The astartes fleet is powerful, but it is supposed to be limited in tactical design (hence, as noted, the Nova-class frigate causes much ruction with the navy as it in no way fits the 'planetary assault' role of the astartes), but there are exceptions.

The nova-class is one, whilst the ultramarines seditio opprimere (a battle barge) is essentially a naval capitalship (re)built by whoever came up with the terminus ultra land raider (we'll replace those wepons with lances, and those, and those...)

The wolves do have an oversize fleet. but they have an oversize chapter, too. They're not an old-style legion, but fenris is home to something equivalent to up to half a dozen 'proper' chapters (great companies are distinctly bigger than normal companies and there are twelve of them, not ten) so a fleet ~ 3 times a codex chapters is hardly out of place.

the Space Wolves aren;t that big. we have some hard numbers on the space wolves now, We have the number of members of both the second largest, the blackmanes, and the largest the champions of fenris.
We can thus estimate a Maximum size of the space wolves. Using the numbers for the champions of Fenris which lists a streangth of 214 Space Wolves (I am generously counting a dreadnought as a space wolf here) we can estimate a estimated max size of 2544 Marines for the space wolves. it's big sure but a far cry from "a half dozen proper chapters"

Codex ultramarines is not original fluff. It’s second edition fluff. And first edition changes massively as it went along. In the first marine army lists you had to buy tech marines to crew vehicles.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Bolter speed is mentioned in several newer 40k books, while the exact bolt speed of the 2.5 kilometer shot comes from Siege of Castellax where an Iron Warrior pops a rebel who lept off the back of a truck while they were falling from 2.5 kilometers out. Bolter penetration is from Space Hulk giving us the statement of Storm Bolters being able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel, and the stats on Wraithbone and Plasteel come from 3rd edition Eldar/Chaos codices (IIRC) on the wraithbone, while the comparison of Wraithbone to Imperial plasteel is from an Inferno! article.

Also another thing to bring up is stealth. It comes up occaisionally, but some authors have run with the idea that as Ceramite is extremely good at absorbing energy - it logically also would dampen the thermal signature of the target. Thus the Rhino, being covered in Ceramite, would prove trickier to lock onto with guided missiles and require a direct "dumbfired" shot to hit it.

Thanks. I wouldn’t put too much weight into any of those figures myself then, things have a way of getting exaggerated in those novels and also stuff changes from edition to edition, not to mention the variables of atmospheres and gravity and construction. Real world science doesn’t matter much in 40k.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

I've never heard of that, you'd be able to at least say what book it was from, so I don't think that is cannon.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Marines pray but the majority of Astartes do not believe that the Emperor is actually a god, they do it for tradition and to focus themselves etc. It hasn't changed in 10,000 years because its an STC construct, made in the golden age of technology, the mechanicus cannot make it better, their technology is primitive in comparison.

I figure it’s because the Astartes are supposed to be the Imperium’s special forces; in and out to cripple a specific strategic target in a lightning attack. AFAIK real world special forces rarely use heavy armour vehicles, too slow and cumbersome. They’re running round in light helicopters and up-armoured 4x4s.

It may not be represented in the tabletop rules, but the Rhino may be much faster and longer ranged than the Chimera. In fact it’s very likely, given all the extra armour and weapons the Chimera carries.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Can you give an example of marines recovering wrecked rhino's, they do that with land raiders so they can fix them because they are limited. Even if they found them sacred, they wouldn't use them if they weren't good or efficient, they'd just keep them as heirloom in their chapter houses/fortresses etc. like they do with all the other relics.

Sadly I'm not in possession of all too many Marine Codex books, but I'm quite sure I read at least one fluff example where they went in just to recover the wreck of one particular Rhino. Of course, it wasn't just a random Rhino, it had been in service for a long time and as such was a Chapter Relic comparable to a hero's armor or weapons.

And I do not disagree completely with you - the marines wouldn't use the Rhino as widely if it didn't fill their needs. But they also do consider technology sacred, at least if a worthy soldier has used it to good effect. They do after all receive a lot of their stuff from Mars or other Forge Worlds, even if some Chapters can be self-sufficient in some areas. TechMarines are Mars-trained and would surely see to it their brothers treat their machines of war with the appropriate respect.

I've never heard of that, you'd be able to at least say what book it was from, so I don't think that is cannon.

To be fair to Spetuhlu, I too remember reading about Rhino recovery along that stretch. It might have been the 5th edition SM codex but I'm not sure.

Chapters do treat their vehicles with a certain reverence. The Salamanders accoring to an old WD article had an 8000 year old Rhino that had its own exclusive techmarine and could only be driven by the most experienced crews.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Basically they don’t need anything fancy they just need a metal box to get them safely from a to b. They are dangerous enough. Also 40k doesn’t work like the real world, marines looking at chimeras and saying “we should use those they are better than the rhino” is a sin. It’s close to heresy. They use rhinos and bolters because they always have ab they are holy. Development and improvement is heresey (unless it sell models- I’m looking at you, you new dangled razorback).

Originally vehicles were crewed by techmarines and servitors. U just had to count Techmarine outside the normal 1000 marines. I would love to see rhinos back in guard armies. In fact might even make the spare one I have up as a command tank. No school like the old school.

Space marines use them because they work. Machines are not sacred to Astartes, only to the Mechanicum. Explain in one way how they don't work, you can't otherwise they wouldn't use them in the lore. The OP thinks they are good just based on how they look and their armour rules.

I’m not saying they don’t work, they do. I’m saying they aren’t posher or more advance because that doesn’t happen in 40k. The rhino has been the same for 10000 years. More recent fluff the marines don’t consider stuff as holy but earlier editions they did. They would offer prayers to their armour and weapons. Ancient rhinos and vehicles would be revered like an old veteran soldier, see the relic vehicles forge world does. More recently that isn’t written into the fluff as much, I think to pave the way for primaris marines (which I like too). I wish guard could have them again and that primaris could squeeze into them. Maybe just 6 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

No. The problem is that you're clinging to an old and outdated opinion, and can't accept the fact that GW doesn't give a damn about your perspective of what 40k "is", and has clearly marched on since your headcanon was in any way relevant to the modern state. When you are throwing out and ignoring all modern material, it's clear that the integrity of your headcanon has sailed off long ago. At this point your headcanon has about as much of a grip on the state of modern 40k as the idea that all Theropods were featherless and dragged their tails on the ground. Caring about realism and being "grounded" in a universe where there is literal antigravity, plastic armor wrought from solidified emotion, Daemons, memetic plagues, gravitonic weaponry, time travel, and free energy is, to be blunt, illogical. It results in you living in a small tiny box of 40k lore, imaging a state of Warhammer that never actually existed because all of this goes back to the very first edition.

That and y'know, not all bolter rounds are hypersonic because bolts are a weapon platform and can be designed and used to fit any parameter you want. Not everybody has hypersonic bolts, however hypersonic bolts can be built and have been used, primarily by marines. Bolts can be geared to travel at speeds ranging from subsonic to hypersonic, all depending on the mission and available resources. That and Warhammer humans are already blatantly superhuman, so I don't see why them using a hypersonic gun which probably has recoil dampening magitech crammed into it anyway being an issue. Or have you also forgotten about how Guardsmen use chainswords, which are heavier than any sword or mace ever made in human history, are used one handed, for hours, without exhaustion? Or how humans in 40k are able to parry blows from Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, Daemons, and other large and strong beasts - yet don't immediately lose a bind? Which I can, as a fencer myself, assure you that it is 100% impossible for a human to survive a blade bind or parry by anything with that level of strength without being superhuman yourself.

Especially when all humans in 40k might actually be the gene-modded result of Golden Age engineering, such as the Men of Stone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Normal humans need modified bolters anyway.

Normal humans use smaller, lighter bolters than marines, however they typically are in the same ballpark of caliber, although they can be smaller. IIRC the RPG's by FFG put the bolters used either by the Guard or SOB at .50 caliber for example.

Out of interest, where’s all this info about strength of materials and speeds of bolt rounds coming from? All seems very detailed and precise. In the past 40k seemed to fall apart if people put actual numbers to things, like the size and weight of a space marine. It all stops the suspension of disbelief.

Marines pray but the majority of Astartes do not believe that the Emperor is actually a god, they do it for tradition and to focus themselves etc. It hasn't changed in 10,000 years because its an STC construct, made in the golden age of technology, the mechanicus cannot make it better, their technology is primitive in comparison.

Improvement is banned. To say you can make an STC better is tech heresey.

If marines pray but don’t believe the emperor is god and things aren’t holy, who are they praying too. I remember a WD article laying out a marines day and it was very like a monks. Prayers every 5 mins. Not all treat the emperor as god and things as holy but many do. U Seem to think all marines are the same.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Old fluff states than simple bolters, not heavy bolters, are able to penetrate 8 inches of plasteel. Likewise new fluff from GW is frequently putting bolters at hypersonic speeds, including what IIRC is the only instance we actually have all of the data of what was going on when a person was shot by a boltgun. They are vastly superior to real life autocannons and pack a significantly greater punch than modern day autocannons, and likewise 40k's autocannons also put modern ones to shame in their sheer firepower. This isn't that surprising considering that one of the most common fuels in the Imperium, Promethium, can burn hot enough to vaporize people.

This has to be dismissed as ignorance from GW. Hypersonic bolter rounds would make the recoil absurd and the explosive component redundant. No human could fire one, and we have countless examples of ordinary humans with bolters. The appropriate thing to do is, like you do with most of the new fluff, treat claims of hypersonic bolter shots as a small child writing OMG THIS IS THE AWESOMEST HYPERSUPERMEGASONIC BOLTER and throw it in the trash with a condescending pat on the head.

Except bolter rounds are 2 stage, they don't exit the barrel at hypersonic speeds. Launched by a small propellant, they are self contained rockets that then accelerate to that after leaving the barrel, hence the low recoil, but high velocity. Kind of like a much more advanced Gyrojet weapon, but with an explosive warhead. Which would theoretically make them less effective at point blank range that at longer ranges - though that'd be hard to represent in game.

Exactly. You don't really need additional firepower when your entire 10 man is carrying rapid fire RPG's.

It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

It makes sense for an IG special weapons team of vetrens. Where almost every guy has a special weapon and the 2 or 3 guys that don't man the guns on the chimera.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Exactly. You don't really need additional firepower when your entire 10 man is carrying rapid fire RPG's.

It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

It makes sense for an IG special weapons team of vetrens. Where almost every guy has a special weapon and the 2 or 3 guys that don't man the guns on the chimera.

You always need additional firepower!
First rule of dakka. - There is never enough dakka!

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's only in game terms where the rhino makes no sense...because why would you want to transport units with 0 fighting ability anywhere?

Because it's the ops base for the ten guys that carry the firepower? A marine's power armor can keep him alive in most environments, sure, what with all the systems keeping bad stuff out, little med-unit giving him drugs, the armor itself stopping attacks. But if hurt bad enough the squad still needs a workplace where they can take his suit off and give him some stitches. They also need some place to store ammo and supply reserves - ammo is always spent and while the PA recycling systems can keep them alive for a long time fresh stuff is probably always the better option. Marines CAN work behind enemy lines without support for a long time but they're going to be a whole lot more effective if they have support. The squad Rhino is that support.

And even on the table it is useful - someone has to shoot it to get the guys to disembark where they can be shot. Oh, and it moves faster than a marine on foot so more background stuff.