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 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its frustrating debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is basically the equivalent of saying 'I don't think John Grammaticus met with the Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.

She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.

No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.

Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.

She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.

I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.

If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?

There's an even more important bit in Vengefull spirit Where she recalls carrying the emperor back up the stairs. He's so wounded/exhausted he can no longer properly shield his thoughts from Alivia.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.

You got that backwards, mate. The Emperor bargained. Horus took it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


The Emperor made the deal at Molech before the crusade. He did it at the time of the dark age of technology. Plus the deal isn't just known by Chaos, the perpetual Alivia Sureka who was asked by the Emperor to seal the cave on Molech after the Emperor took the powers also corroborates the story. We also know what the deal was, the Warmaster made the same deal, though he bargained to get it whereas the Emperor took it by force.

You got that backwards, mate. The Emperor bargained. Horus took it.

Not true, I already posted multiple qoutes where Horus said he bargained and the Emperor stole the powers:

"Horus smiled at the extra vowel at the end of the honorific. A natural development, given the power that now filled him. Power that had almost cost him his life to obtain. Not that to look at him anyone would know that. The many hurts he had suffered to win Molech had healed years ago it seemed. It was hard to be sure. His sons told him he’d only been gone moments, how could he tell them different? Molech was a far distant memory to Horus now. He’d fought wars, slain monsters and defied gods in those moments. He’d wrested the power of those same gods at the heads of vast armies of daemons. He’d fought in battles that would rage unchecked for all eternity. He’d won a thousand kingdoms within the empyrean, billions of vassals to do with as he pleased, but he’d refused it. Every pleasure and prize was his for the taking, but he’d denied them all. He’d taken the power his father had taken, but he’d done so without deception. He’d taken it by force of arms and by virtue of his self-belief. There was no bargain made, no promise to honour. The power was his and his alone. Finally, after everything, Horus was a god. ‘Sire, what are your orders?’ said Ezekyle. Horus stared at the veil of stars, as though he could see all the way from Molech to Terra. He extended a clawed hand, as though already cupping the precious bauble of humanity’s cradle. ‘I am coming for you, father,’ said Horus."

"Lupercal walked in a circle, jabbing a fist into his palm with every sentence. ‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here in humble guise and found the gateway to
a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation.’ Horus was radiant as he spoke, as though he had already ascended to a divine plane of reality. ‘But the Emperor had no intention of honouring His debt to the gods. He turned on them, taking their gifts and blending them with His genecraft to give birth to demigods. The Emperor condemns the warp as unnatural, but only so no other dares wield it. The blood of the immaterial realm flows in my veins. It flows in all our veins, for as I am the Emperor’s son, you are the Sons of Horus, and the secret of our genesis was unlocked upon Molech. The gateway to that power is in Lupercalia, far beneath the mountain rock. Sealed away from the light by a jealous god who knew that someday one of His sons would seek to surpass His deeds.’ And finally Aximand understood why they had come here, why they had expended such resources and defied all military logic to follow in the footsteps of a god. This would be the moment they rose to challenge the Emperor with the very weapons He had kept for Himself. This was to be the apotheosis of them all. "

Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.

She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.

No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.

Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.

She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.

I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.

If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?

Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up

And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.

Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.

She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.

No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.

Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.

She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.

I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.

If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?

Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up

And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.

Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?

So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods

I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.

I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

Considering that the might of chaos abandoned Horus during his fight with the emperor (from me understanding of it) the power Horus “took” was clearly am illusion, no matter what Horus or his followers (or us the readers) think of him.

Now, given that Chaos couldn't do the same to the Emperor implies that what ever happened, and the circumstances before, during, and after must be very different for the Emperor and Horus.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

When someone is wrong you point it out and I did, quote where I said someone was wrong when they weren't. If everyone was just agreeing then it wouldn't really be an interesting discussion. You do the same thing when someone says something that is wrong or not supported by the lore. Just because the high amount of people commenting are wrong on parts doesn't make it any different. Like you said that the Emperor made the deal on Molech half way through the crusade was I to agree and talk about something that didn't happen, I mean that isn't a trivial error. If you said something I agree with you'd be less critical about me and have a good discussion. Everyone dislikes me because I know a lot about the lore and I point out when people are wrong, sometimes smugly which I'll admit but I don't really care. We are all wrong, you should stop being angry about it, it doesn't impact your life if you are wrong about a 40k fact. I'd be glad If I found out that the Emperor made the deal during the dark age I'd be like that's cool as feth.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Considering that the might of chaos abandoned Horus during his fight with the emperor (from me understanding of it) the power Horus “took” was clearly am illusion, no matter what Horus or his followers (or us the readers) think of him.

Now, given that Chaos couldn't do the same to the Emperor implies that what ever happened, and the circumstances before, during, and after must be very different for the Emperor and Horus.

How did Chaos abandon Horus?

The part where Chaos ditched him to watch the Emperor kill him? That's hardly obscure fluff.

pm713 wrote:
The part where Chaos ditched him to watch the Emperor kill him? That's hardly obscure fluff.

Never read that, where's it in? Cause why on earth would Chaos do that. I mean the Emperor destroyed his soul so Chaos couldn't still have their champion as a daemon prince. Plus I can't find that on wiki or lex.

Because their slave was about to die so it's better that he dies without their power in him.

" Realizing their pawn had failed, the Gods of Chaos retreated from Horus' body. As they did, sanity returned to the Warmaster."

pm713 wrote:
Because their slave was about to die so it's better that he dies without their power in him.

" Realizing their pawn had failed, the Gods of Chaos retreated from Horus' body. As they did, sanity returned to the Warmaster."

Yeah that was after the fight and after the Emperor shot the psychic attack. He was doomed anyway. They were with him in the fight.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because their slave was about to die so it's better that he dies without their power in him.

" Realizing their pawn had failed, the Gods of Chaos retreated from Horus' body. As they did, sanity returned to the Warmaster."

Yeah that was after the fight and after the Emperor shot the psychic attack. He was doomed anyway. They were with him in the fight.

So why did you say you didn't know it.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because their slave was about to die so it's better that he dies without their power in him.

" Realizing their pawn had failed, the Gods of Chaos retreated from Horus' body. As they did, sanity returned to the Warmaster."

Yeah that was after the fight and after the Emperor shot the psychic attack. He was doomed anyway. They were with him in the fight.

So why did you say you didn't know it.

Because I didn't. I always thought the Emperor just destroyed his soul and made chaos leave him. But I looked it up and they left after the fight.

Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:
Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.

Yeah the spear of the Emperor brought Horus back from Chaos for a brief time when Russ stabbed him with it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.

She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.

No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.

Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.

She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.

I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.

If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?

Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up

And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.

Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?

So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods

I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.

You quote things that don’t say what you claim they say, then when called out you fall back on your usual tactics as follows.

Lie
Blame others for lying
Claim you didn’t say something
Claim others are wrong
Claim someone has not read something

So again, let’s see that 1k of sweet sweet money, and you will never ever get an apology from me, I don’t think I’m more intelligent that you, I know I am

Do you know what projection is ? Oh dear...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Keep in mind this is old fluff and may be incorrect. Although Wolfsbane suggests pretty strongly Horus is not in his right mind due to the influence of chaos.

Yeah the spear of the Emperor brought Horus back from Chaos for a brief time when Russ stabbed him with it.

It seemed too yes. which raises the question, we know there's an old story that Sanguinis put a chink of Horus' armor that the emperor exploited, I'd long dismissed that as "wishful thinking" by the blood angels given the confrontation between Horus and the Emperor was from all accounts mostly Psykic in nature, now I wonder if perhaps Sanguinis had his own spear \(not nesscarily a spear mind you) , and it combined with Russ's earlier attack ios what lead to chaos losing hold on Horus. In otherwords Chaos didn't ABANDON Horus, they where cut off.

The only thing I remember being special about Sanguinius's spear is the ability to shoot flames that didn't hurt blood angels.

I think Chaos abandoning their pawn when he stopped being useful is much more fitting along with a return to the original Ollanius Pius role.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
We know what Horus got, that does not mean that the emperor got the same, you do see that’s a logical fallacy right?

We could both go to the shop, does that mean we both got the same items?

We both have phones, does that mean we get the same apps?

We both come to dakka, does that mean we have the same experience ?

All we actually know is the emperor went through the portal, after that we have 1 account from a clearly biased person that may or may not know the truth, another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain.

You haven't even read the book, why are you debating a book you've never read?

Horus went there to get what the Emperor got, the red angel told him where the obsidian gate was, Horus went in he talked to the 'actual' chaos gods and he was endoyed with power that even made Mortarion bow to him in a way he never did for the Warmaster. Sureka the perpetual know the Emperor got 'power' from the same Arbours of Entropy, she is not biased, she was there, she does know the truth, the novel does not imply that she may or may not know the truth (which is why you haven't even read it) you are just assuming that she is biased and doesn't know what happened. After Horus left the Arbours of Entropy, Surka knew exactly the power Horus took. So if you actually read the book then you wouldn't be arguing. "As far as we know" no as far as I've told you. You don't want the Emperor to have gotten powers from Chaos, it makes him less awesome, you are arguing from that basis, rather from a basis of actually reading the book. Sorry I'm being a bit of an ass but its annoying debating a point in a novel that someone hasn't read, your argument is literally 'I don't think John Grammaticus met Cabal because he is biased and he may or may not know the truth'

Ah that old chestnut, yep I have read it, I have read them all, also own every single audio book of the HH, thats some money ive dropped on things I havent bothered to read hahah.

Ok so lets go through what you said.

Horus went to molech based on a suspicion, not fact, he was told the Emp had been there, he then gets info from those suspended animation brain memory things,Horus, Fulgrim and Mortarion have a little meeting before going to Molech, fire raptors happen, cool Scene.

Mortarion bowing to his power... meh, irelevent to the discussion.

Sureka knows the emperor got power, really, citation required, and it will have to be SPECIFIC, not a general "he dun got mer powah!" and will have to SPECIFICALLY state EXACTLY what that power is, or you are just engaging in conjecture like the rest of us.

She is Biased as a human, like all humans are, she did not go through the gate therefore she did not experience what the emperor did, we dont know that he told her what happened, so anything she says is marred by her own personal experience... or as the rest of us all is BIAS!

She was not there, she stood outside a door, do YOU know what happens on the other side of a door when its closed, nope, this is just an analogy as I know you have comprehension problems usually Delvarus, but please cite the lines and page where she goes through the portal with the emperor or perhaps the lines and page where the Emperor explains everything to her.

Funnily enough I didnt actually even say she was Biased either
"another is from a person who as far as we know just saw him enter and leave, so assuming that he got tangible power from the encounter isn’t certain"

Yep she knew what power Horus took, does that mean Horus took the Exact same power that the Emperor may or may not have taken? nope, Logical fallacy, one does not automatically equate the other.

OR to put it in a way you will understand.

I have a closed door, 10 years ago I went through that door, some people saw me go through that door, after going though I closed the door, no sound can be heard from the other side, after a few hours I come out of the door.

10 years later you have heard about me going through a door, you dont know where the door is or what a door even is, you just know it when you see it, you eventually find this door, its completely alien to you, you enter, after a few hours you come out of the door.

a 3rd person has seen me enter the door, but doesnt know whats on the other side, I never tell this person, why would I, I dont want this person going through the door, 10 years later you turn up, you go through the door, to this 3rd party, who knows little to nothing of whats on the other side of the door, other than sometimes other things come out of other doorways, assumes the same thing has happened, thing is, so do you.

Now we take the real you, you have heard about the story of the first person to go through the door, seen this person is powerful, then assumed that this power comes from the doorway as the second person to come out of the doorway became powerful, you are ignoring that both will have experienced different events after going through the door, you are assuming that one automatically equates the other, this is wrong

You are being an ass but you are always an ass dude, I am used to it and I dont really mind as its just the way you are, you also always make assumptions based on your versions of the background, claim others dont know things when its clear for everyone here that its you that dont know things, you fall back on the same defences every single time, its almost as if you are baiting an argument by posting purposfully false information

Alivia traced the patterns she’d memorised all those years ago over the surface of the gate. Each movement sent a rippling shiver of painful disgust through her. She knew what lay beyond the gate better than most. She knew how it hungered for what lay on this side. A closed gate was better than no gate, and the howling, mad, devouring things on the other side weren’t about to give up even this tenuous hold without a fight. Alivia’s empathic gift was now a curse. This close to the gate, every hateful thought she’d ever had was magnified. She relived the pain of every lover who’d betrayed her, every attacker who’d wounded her and every person she’d abandoned. And not just hers. Valance and his four men knelt beside her with their rifles shouldered. They were soldiers, and had a lot of bad memories. All of them crowded her thoughts. Tears streamed down her face and wracking sobs spasmed in her chest. Not for the first time, she cursed in a dead language that she had been left to do this. She knew that he couldn’t do it. After what he had taken from the realm beyond, it would be suicide for him to draw so near to those whose power he’d stolen. Every mantra she whispered was faltering, every line she drew in lunar caustic was fading before she could empower it. She couldn’t focus. All the years she’d spent waiting in readiness for this moment and she couldn’t bloody concentrate. Hardly surprising, really. The sound of battle was incredible. Bolters and other, heavier weapons were filling the passageway with explosive rounds, but she knew it wouldn’t be enough to stop the Warmaster. She had known that Horus would find this place eventually, but he had found it quicker than she’d hoped. She’d never agreed with the decision to obscure the existence and nature of the warp, but if Alivia’s long life had taught her anything, it was that finger-pointing after the fact was beyond futile.

She knows the power Horus got even though she never even saw him leave the obsidian gate.

No, she isn't biased, she knows the Emperor got power.

Changing the subject now, you said we don't even know if he got anything from Chaos. The point is moot, he went in and Horus got what the Emperor got, this is rediculous, he got candyfloss.

She knew what power Horus got, because she knew what the Emperor got, she was not there to see what Horus got. She was dead.

I will give you a thousand pounds if you can qoute me giving false information. If you want to lie okay. You said that because you are the liar and you make stuff up which I've called you out on doing multiple times. I don't give false information, I quote every like I'm doing here. You are just pissed because I've proved you wrong so many times. I'm an donkey-cave because I call people out for lying or making up stuff or debating a book they've never read. People will do anything not to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong and learn something. And it pisses me off when people do that, because you could read something and think that was true when the person that commented was just making stuff up so he wouldn't be wrong.

If you've read the book, what did Malcador and the Emperor talk about? What daemon reared its head again from early on in HH. What did Horus say to Loken? What did Mortarion and Fulgrim talk about? What were Russ and Malcador doing?

Show me the grand... go on, and I will happily post it all up

And jus because you lack the intelligence to understand what I’ve told you, does not mean I’m changing the subject, you are making awful leaps of logic and quoting things that do not say what you claim they do, if you want your own head cannon that’s fine, don’t try to impose it on the rest of us as usual Delvarus.

Stop making things up, it’s that simple, notice when you don’t we have civil conversations?

So you haven't read the book, I'd like an apology. Seeing that everyone can now see you are a liar I don't need to bet you a thousand pounds. You constantly make things up I've never, I back up what I say with quotes and facts. you can't even find any quotes where I have. I've pointed out many times and proved you make things up just so that you aren't wrong. I was having a civil conversation until you started lying, you haven't read the book, saying you haven't when you clearly haven't is not being uncivil, when you lie and I call you out you start saying that I make things up, but everyone can see I don't, when quote everything you say you can't lie, nor do you need to. What you can find on these threads is when someone does prove me wrong 'I' admit that I'm wrong, its far less embarrassing than being caught lying to try and make people think you're right. As for intelligence seeing that I always prove you wrong, I don't understand how you can think you are more intelligent lol. You're pathological when it comes to not wanting to admit you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Except that the idea that Horus got the power with no strings was a self deception, we all know that. All those "force of arms" things Horus did? TESTS by Chaos. Horus entered the Molech gateway and spent his entire time dancing to the tune of the Chaos gods

I never said he got the power without any strings, if he bargained there is obviously a cost. We don't know what happened when Horus entered the House eyes.

You quote things that don’t say what you claim they say, then when called out you fall back on your usual tactics as follows.

Lie
Blame others for lying
Claim you didn’t say something
Claim others are wrong
Claim someone has not read something

So again, let’s see that 1k of sweet sweet money, and you will never ever get an apology from me, I don’t think I’m more intelligent that you, I know I am

Do you know what projection is ? Oh dear...

You're the liar, everyone can see you are. Anyone can see you lying in the other threads. You make stuff up as well, which is pathetic. Quote me where I claim I didn't say something, quote me where I have been wrong other than the times I admit I am wrong. YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK, you proved it yourself, you couldn't asnwer even one of the questions on the book Ithat I asked you and you lied again saying you've read all the HH books lol, you are seriously pathological. I'm far more intelligent than you mate, it must drive you crazy that you think you are more intelligent but I literally have proved you wrong in everything you've said to me, if I was willing to waste the time I'd quote all those instances, it'd be funny, but anyone can see in this thread how many times I have, so I'll just leave it. projection like me calling you a liar and that you made things up in our first argument and then you are trying to say I lie, yeah I know what projection is lol Pay you a thousand, for what you still haven't quoted anything. People that say 'I'm more intelligent than you, are often insecure about their own intelligence.

If you're that intelligent then why are you arguing on dakka with giant text walls?????

pm713 wrote:
If you're that intelligent then why are you arguing on dakka with giant text walls?????

I never claimed I was intelligent, captain picard said I wasn't, I merely said the truth that I'm more intelligent than him. Why do you get butthurt when you are told that you are wrong on a point, its just so petty.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.

I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.

Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.

w1zard wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I mean. At this point, is it really worth the discussion. Delvarus asks a question, people post varying things, Delvarus spends the entire thread telling them they’re wrong and quoting bits of the book to prove it.

Doesn’t seem like there’s much discussion going on.

Not only that, his quotes are only marginally related to the subject at hand and he says that they prove things they actually really don't prove at all.

I'm all for understanding that the lore has different interpretations for different people, but Delvarus seems to believe some pretty blatantly incorrect things about the lore (like saying Horus was warmaster for "ages" before the HH) and still clings to these views even if proven wrong.

Most of the things he says are valid "interpretations" (from my perspective), but if you disagree with him or present him with an alternate opinion he seems to take it as a personal attack and screams at you that your totally subjective interpretation is wrong.

How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?

BrianDavion wrote:
How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?

About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
How long was Horus warmaster BTW? I've been wondering that myself?

About 5 years, from the end of the Ullanor campaign to Istvaan III. I personally believe the battle of Istavaan III to be the start of the Horus Heresy, even though Horus technically started making moves before then.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline

wow Chaos moved fast.