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So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.

There isn't.

Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight.

If the SM player chooses to fight as if it were their Fight phase; can they select any other units to fight?

No. The selected unit to Fight is the slain character. This is selected regardless of whether he is eligible to be selected.

And once again. Look at the very last line of Step 1: "A fight is resolved in the following steps:"

See that colon at the end of the last word? That means the steps that follow that colon are the steps of a fight in the Fight phase, after you have determined which units are eligible to fight.

So in summary: the Strategem selects the character to fight(whether he would be eligible or not), then the fight is step 2-6. No matter how you look at it, the eligibility requirements in step 1 do not amd cannot apply here.

Again, this is an inference gathered from piece-mealing of the sentences that comprise of the rule as a whole.

It's not that your inference is wrong - it's just that the ruleset doesn't work on logical interpretation of the rule.

You NEED the rule to say something in the lines of "this unit can fight, regardless of whether it was eligible to fight before it was slain" in order for your interpretation to work as RAW.

Unless it LITERALLY and EXPLICITLY says you can do this, then you can't do it. That's 40k rules for you.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?

Now you are just being obtuse.
Your character dies, you use the Strat, but then do nothing.

Just because a Strat is "triggered" doesn't mean is CAN be resolved no matter what.

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"You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.

There isn't.

Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight."

Exactly - the stratagem does not give you permission to ignore this. It actually says - you "fight as if it was the fight phase."

Fight phase starts at step 1 - step 1 states you must be within 1" of a model or charged in order to be selected to fight.

If "step 1 still exists" and the character is ineligible to be selected(not that the strat doesn't select the character itself); then why couldn't an eligibe unit fight instead?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"You guys keep claiming that there are some "cannot fight" restrictions in step 1.

There isn't.

Step 1 tells us who is eligible to be selected to fight."

Exactly - the stratagem does not give you permission to ignore this. It actually says - you "fight as if it was the fight phase."

Fight phase starts at step 1 - step 1 states you must be within 1" of a model or charged in order to be selected to fight.

And Again. Fights start in the Fight phase at step 2.

Read step 1.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?

I believe the strat says "select an infantry character or biker character"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?

I believe the strat says "select an infantry character or biker character"

Exactly. For an ability/strat to work, ALL rules must be satisfied, unless EXPLICITILY stated otherwise.

If A is required to do B, but an ability allows you to do B out of sequence when C is involved, it still requires A.
It also requires C to do out of sequence
Again, unless the ability specifically says you can do B without needing A when the criteria for C are met.

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 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So I can declare the Strat and then select a unit of Vanguard Vets engaged on the other side of the table, right?

I believe the strat says "select an infantry character or biker character"

Exactly. For an ability/strat to work, ALL rules must be satisfied, unless EXPLICITILY stated otherwise.

If A is required to do B, but an ability allows you to do B out of sequence when C is involved, it still requires A.
It also requires C to do out of sequence
Again, unless the ability specifically says you can do B without needing A when the criteria for C are met.

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It isn't even that complex.

The strat states the character fights as if it were the Fight phase.

What are the Steps to resolve a fight in the Fight phase?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It isn't even that complex.

The strat states the character fights as if it were the Fight phase.

What are the Steps to resolve a fight in the Fight phase?

Just because a unit is allowed to fight as if it was fight phase, it doesn't mean that it gets to ignore any/all rules pertaining to fighting as if it was fight phase unless explicitly allowed to ignore them otherwise.

Which it doesn't.

You are missing the "as if" portion. The character indeed Fights "as if" it were the Fight phase. i.e., he DOESNT if not within 1" of an enemy.

The Strat does not give the character permission to fight no matter what. It gives permission to pretend we have skipped to his fight phase and resolve him. So we get to step 1 and stop as there are no units in 1" for him to be eligible to fight.

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The 1" can be reconciled with the first step in resolving a fight in the Fight phase: step 2, Pile-in.

The Strat selects the unit to fight as of it were the fight phase. Per Step 1 a Fight is steps 2-6 of the fight phase.

Galef, I quoted you last page admitting that the character is selected.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The 1" can be reconciled with the first step in resolving a fight in the Fight phase: step 2, Pile-in.

Except that this is an assumption as no express permission was given to reconcile step 1 pf fight phase with the stratagem.

The entirety of a Fight Phase is step 1-6

A Fight in the Fight phase is steps 2-6.

So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The entirety of a Fight Phase is step 1-6

A Fight in the Fight phase is steps 2-6.

So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.

But you haven't been given express permission to segment step 2-6 and call it THE fight portion of the phrase "fight as if it was fight phase."

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The entirety of a Fight Phase is step 1-6

A Fight in the Fight phase is steps 2-6.

So A Fight phase is as follows:
Step 1: determine who is eligible and the order of the fights is laid out here.
Eligible unit 1 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 2 goes through steps 2-6
Eligible unit 3 goes through steps 2-6
Etc.

A Fight is step 5. (hitting, wounding)
I would also say you cant if you are not in one inch.
Because Fight phase is Step 1 to 6, and a "fight" is step 5.

Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.

So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.

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Skcshan & Skullhopper: We do not need permission, it is in the rules(and no, it is not step 5)

It seems like no-one that is arguing against me is aware of what Step 1 even says.

rulebook, Fight phase, #1. Choose Unit to Fight With wrote:
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:

See that ":" at the end? Step 2 starts right after that.

But let's break these rules down Sentence by Sentence:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." This tells us who is eligible to fight in the Fight phase.

"This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is." The Line that Galef accused me of being "obtuse" about. If the first sentence is in play, so is this one.

"All units that charged this turn fight first." This line pertains to my earlier 2 scenarios, wherein the Charging units had not finished fighting before the Strategem was activated So, again if all these rules apply; then the SM Character cannot fight.

"The player whose turn it is picks the order in which units fight." This is related to the last line, for strategems or abilities that allow a unit to Charge outside of their own Charge Phase. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

"After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each." Again, if Step 1 is part of the Strategem's rules then all units that are eligible may fight; but we know better, the strat does not create a full Fight phase.

"No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase." Pertaining to my second Scenario, if the SM Character already fought in the normal Fight Phase; he cannot fight again while Step 1 is active in this Fight phase.

"If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another." Irrelevant unless the Strat creates a full Fight phase(including step 1 here); then all eligible units must fight per the above rules.

"A fight is resolved in the following steps:" This is telling us that the Steps listed are what constitutes a fight in the Fight phase; Step 1 is not a part of this. You Pile in, Choose Targets, Choose Melee Weapon, Resolve combat attacks, and finally Consolidate. That is how you fight in the Fight phase.

Galef: I am going to ignore your last post because this one and the Strat telling us that the Model "fight(s) as if it were your Fight phase" is covered by the above and what constitutes Fighting(not step 1).

I added a poll just to see what the consensus was seeing as it's provoked a fair bit of discussion!

As odd as it sounds, it's very clear that step 1 is only describing the terms on which you can choose models to fight.
The stratagem clearly states that the model is chosen to fight therefore completing the first step. I would agree that if enemies were outside the pile-in range, then yes. No melee. but within that range, it sounds to me like it's legal.

 Galef wrote:
Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.

So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.

-

Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.

So, rules of the fight phase say
“Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.”
This is part of step 1.

The stratagem allows you to select a unit to fight out of the turns sequence. Yes, it satisfies the “select a unit” bit, but, it doesn’t ignore the criteria beforehand, requiring the model being selected to be within 1” of an enemy unit.

The strat does not replace step 1, only it allows you to make the step 1 “unit selection” out of sequence IF the criteria of being eligible to be selected is met.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.

So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.

-

Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.

What is the fight phase? The fight phase is steps 1-6 of the battle primer. Just because the strat allows the model to fight out of sequence, doesn't mean it ignores whether or not it would be eligible to do so in the first place.

Kdash wrote:
So, rules of the fight phase say
“Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.”
This is part of step 1.

The stratagem allows you to select a unit to fight out of the turns sequence. Yes, it satisfies the “select a unit” bit, but, it doesn’t ignore the criteria beforehand, requiring the model being selected to be within 1” of an enemy unit.

The strat does not replace step 1, only it allows you to make the step 1 “unit selection” out of sequence IF the criteria of being eligible to be selected is met.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.

So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.

-

Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.

What is the fight phase? The fight phase is steps 1-6 of the battle primer. Just because the strat allows the model to fight out of sequence, doesn't mean it ignores whether or not it would be eligible to do so in the first place.

The Strat doesn't allow you to select a unit out of sequence; it selects the unit for you. There is no step 1 involved. The Slain character is the only unit that will be fighting. It doesn't metter where he is on the board; if he is 7" from an enemy unit and you choose to fight(for some reason) he can pile in 3" and then cannot choose any targets so the fight is resolved right there and he is removed from the table.

I am just glad that this situation is, in theory, very, very rare.

The character will most likely be in combat when it is slain, therefore it will clearly be within 1" of an enemy, or the character will be killed by shooting and *fingers crossed* more than 4" away from an enemy.

I am also glad that this Strat isn't *too* powerful as I am willing to let my opponent be wrong and waste a Strat, rather than argue for 5 mins as to why they cannot use the Strat.
Taking a few more attacks is worth avoiding the time wasted trying to convince someone how the rules work.

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It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)

 DoomMouse wrote:
It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)

I get what you are saying, but honestly if they allow their Farseer, Fireblades or Commanders be that close, that was their mistake.
Regardless of how I feel this rule should work, that is an inexcusable tactical error.
I cannot remember a game (win or lose) in which my Farseer got within 12" if an enemy if I didn't want it. It's easy math to see where you need to be, how far the opponent can move and to not be in a bad spot. It also helps that my HQ has a 22" move.

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I shot Roboute Gulliman to death with a Knight, who was positioned 3" away for a nice easy charge if the guns didn't work. Roboute failed his reincarnation and the reroll and died.

After the game, opponent realised this was a perfect opportunity for "only in death"

Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.

 Galef wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
It comes up more than you'd think for me. Shooty armies tend to like to stand right next to him with a powerful unit (or flier) as they know they'll almost certainly kill him. I've had my smash captain kill farseers, fireblades and tau commanders with this (or just throw a decent amount of wounds onto an enemy vehicle for 2CP)

I get what you are saying, but honestly if they allow their Farseer, Fireblades or Commanders be that close, that was their mistake.
Regardless of how I feel this rule should work, that is an inexcusable tactical error.
I cannot remember a game (win or lose) in which my Farseer got within 12" if an enemy if I didn't want it. It's easy math to see where you need to be, how far the opponent can move and to not be in a bad spot. It also helps that my HQ has a 22" move.

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We'll, people don't necessarily see it coming when they have enough shooting to essentially guarantee a dead character (they're not expecting him to live til heroic intervention). I've also often had psykers need to get close so their smites aren't screened out by chaff units that will be more efficiently killed in the shooting phase. It can also be a little hard to avoid 5+ shield captains/smash captains when they're getting up in your face and in the centre of an opponents castle.

 Galef wrote:
If you are looking at the Strat as replacing step 1, sure, I might agree.
The issue is that no one is agreeing that the Strat does jack for step 1, other than to take out the optional "selection" part.

The way it reads, the Strat allows you to break the normal sequence and follow the Fight phase steps.
Step 1 selects a unit that has either charged or is within 1" of an enemy. The Strat selects the character automatically, but then immediately stops as you aren't allowed to go further

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We'll, I wouldn't say no one agrees, they're just letting him do the talking. There are 10 votes for yes.

I voted ambiguous and needs FAQ, but if I had to choose I'd agree with Kel's interpretation and logic.

 Silentz wrote:

Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.

No.

 Silentz wrote:
Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.

All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action. It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.