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Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

Re: the paint schemes, I've talked to a few people who were there. They said the team format may have contributed to the sub-standard quality of the armies on the tables.

In more than a few cases, people were unable to use their regular armies because of keyword restrictions for team members. Because they were not able to use models with the same faction keywords, they purchase some just for the tournament and put the minimum amount of work into the paint job to comply with the policy (since they don't care about the models.)

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Slow play rears its ugly head once more.

Sad to see this happen at another event. However, good to see tournament organisers wising up and acting on such poor behaviour.

I think points levels should be reduced so that games can come to a natural conclusion. The GW GT is going to play at 1750 pts so lets see how this develops.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Well yeah they got caught lol. From what I heard from our local team that was there, there was quite a bit of cheating or shady behavior going on, its just that that particular team for whatever reason was the target of everyone elses' ire.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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Water-Caste Negotiator




United States

Nidzrule! wrote:
Slow play rears its ugly head once more.

Sad to see this happen at another event. However, good to see tournament organisers wising up and acting on such poor behaviour.

I think points levels should be reduced so that games can come to a natural conclusion. The GW GT is going to play at 1750 pts so lets see how this develops.


TOs have already said dropping to 1750 will not affect the speed of the game. They continue to keep these tournaments at 2000, even ETC which uses the BRB game missions. There's no reason these players cannot make turns 4-5 each game. They have played 100s of times and know the rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:18:27


   
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Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

auticus wrote:
Well yeah they got caught lol. From what I heard from our local team that was there, there was quite a bit of cheating or shady behavior going on, its just that that particular team for whatever reason was the target of everyone elses' ire.


Exactly. Which I'm still happy they got banned. They deserved it. But other big name teams were doing very similar things, it just wasn't brought up to the TO's.

And no, I will not name names on those, because it is not on the official record and I won't be rumor mongering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevermind wrote:
Nidzrule! wrote:
Slow play rears its ugly head once more.

Sad to see this happen at another event. However, good to see tournament organisers wising up and acting on such poor behaviour.

I think points levels should be reduced so that games can come to a natural conclusion. The GW GT is going to play at 1750 pts so lets see how this develops.


TOs have already said dropping to 1750 will not affect the speed of the game. They continue to keep these tournaments at 2000, even ETC which uses the BRB game missions. There's no reason these players cannot make turns 4-5 each game. They have played 100s of times and know the rules.


With 1 exception, my ork player made it to turn 6 each game. The one game he didn't, his opponent was also a horde army, and they were in each others lines turn 1, so dice rolling took forever. My Knight player played against a guy with more then 240 models in the last turn, that guy saw every game through to completion as well.

It's got nothing to do with the size of the armies. It can't get any clearer then that. It's got to do with people not playing fast enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:20:42


1st Legion Dark Angels

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Made in us
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 djones520 wrote:

The points reduction removed them from contention of winning,. I was at the table next to them in the following round, where they got kicked out.

As was I. Perhaps we were playing against each other! :-) But they were not shown the door then, it was only AFTER the day was over were they booted.
Now, to be clear here, they were NOT removed from contention due to points, as the entire venue was told "points will be deducted, but they did not know how much". Afterwards, they could deduct all they want, but to be fair, everyone continued at that point just being told "they will lose some points". Due to history, a slap on the wrist did not seem out of the question at that time.

That team was not the only one cheating. They were the only one people were calling for blood for on though.

this is just wrong. I am not sure where you were in the venue, but the four model issue from ANOTHER top team stoked the fire for what happened with Aaron. people were calling for both to be booted. But one of the players has a long history with bending the rules, so if they wanted him punished more, who is to blame them?

The event had other issues, with Best Coast Pairings utterly failing throughout the event, making each day go hours longer then it should have, people already super angry about then,

And the AC seemingly not working for stretches at a time did not help tempers much I am sure.

Either way, the result ended up with a disqualification, which should have happened immediately, not after people had a chance to get all riled up and looking to lynch someone. If it was immediate, people would have been put on notice, they would have respected the decision and ATC would be held up as an example of what to do. They had a chance to take the lead against this type of behavior and they dropped the ball.
Shame really.

   
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Fort Campbell

Yeah, day 1 was rough with the AC issues. I did hear rumors about the 4 unit thing, but never heard Shane say anything about that, so I didn't want to raise that up. The other "cheats" I got from people who saw it first hand and told me about it, but again, they never raised it to the TO's. Made it pretty clear that Team Happy was the one people were gunning for.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:36:00


1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Hey look I suspect that you are right. Even if games were at 1500, I am sure some individuals would find ways to lengthen games.

However, with a lower point count - I think this will become much harder to game (assuming TOs dont jam more games into the day). I have myself been the target of a slow player in 7th edition when the SM 'free point' armies were all the rage and objective based games become a bit ridiculous! I am all for combatting the insidiousness of this bad behaviour. I also look with interest the chess clock piece for LVO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 13:58:19


 
   
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Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

How do you see someone cheat, not call a judge, but then bitch about it later?


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 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


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Ohio

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How do you see someone cheat, not call a judge, but then bitch about it later?


My guess is they were embarrassed or otherwise intimated to go to a judge.
   
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Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

Which is fine, just don't complain about it later.

People bitching about issues that they don't allow the system to fix is hardly something Shane can do anything about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 14:09:10


"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
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Little Rock, Arkansas

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How do you see someone cheat, not call a judge, but then bitch about it later?



Most people at events are extremely concerned with actually finishing the game on time. And unless you had a video camera out at the time, what good will calling a judge do when they didn’t get to see the state of the game until after the incident? One of the first things I think about it I need to call a judge or an HR rep for work is “can I prove this at all?” If not, they don’t have a lot of reason to do anything.

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Sometimes you don't notice subtle things until after the event, of course after the event if you have no video to review you can end up with hazy memory causing you to miss-remember things in both a positive and negative light.


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 djones520 wrote:
Somethings I will comment on, that's not related to this.

I was incredibly disappointed with the quality of some of the armies present. The paint job on some of these were atrocious. One army had literally been entirely sprayed blue, gold sharpie on the trim, and a random red splotch thrown here or there. Wasn't based or anything.

I played against a team who placed in the top 5 last year, and the guy was using unpainted toy models for custodes. There were numerous instances of Proxies, and numerous instances of "conversions" that were no where even close to reasonable represenations of what they were. An ork player had "KMK's" that were 1.5" tall, for crying out loud. They were about the same size as a terminator, when the actual KMK model is closer to the size of a rhino.

I was not pleased with the lack of enforcement on those rules.

My personal opinion on the model quality/proxy/paint issue at Tournaments is that this is an extension of GW's push for "Power Creep" and "FoTM" Gaming to sell models. I have seen repeated screaming deals on ebay because of the "win only matters, nothing else". For a while the quality of the miniatures painted and shown at Tournaments increased and then when Power Gaming became the global Meta that all started to change.

I mean you can't paint up a whole army, then paint it up next month when GW nerfs this and buffs that or releases a new power-creep codex to sell models. However competitive 40k is certainly keeping GW in the black with constant model buy and sells. It is undermining the hobby side of things. More the MOBA player vs the Model Train/Historic Army Player.

So this is just a continued expansion of that issue. Same with the cheating, though folks have always cheated, it is more common and more are doing it because it doesn't matter as long as you won the "competitive" 40k.

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
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Ohio

Let's not lose sight of the real take away here BOLS is fething garbage, and their "article" on the issue was literally saying nothing. Will be speaking to Aaron Aelong tonight after 8pm EST on Facebook live www.facebook.com/thedroppod
I have also spoken to Allen Bajramovic, and will be speaking with others involved including the TO and judges. People can draw their own conclusions from all of that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 16:19:05


BEST MODE [ON] OFF

Nathan
 
   
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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How do you see someone cheat, not call a judge, but then bitch about it later?



This is a game full of nerds. Nerds, as a stereotype, tend to be meek, avoid confrontation, even in a competitive game setting. On one hand you have rampant passive-aggressiveness. On the other hand you have people guessing that their opponent maybe might have been possibly cheating, but they couldn't be 100% sure, and if they're not 100% sure, they don't want to slow their game down by calling a judge and end up being wrong. A lot of that comes from the game being overcomplicated, with too many overlapping rules, complex list-building, etc. If someone says they have a combi-plasma and the model is modeled with a combi-plasma, how are you supposed to expect otherwise? It might take you 2 or 3 precious minutes to scan their hand-written list to find exactly where that combi-plasma happened to be, and if it's not there, THEN you can call someone over... but what if it is? Then you've wasted 2-3 minutes of the game when you could be scoring super tight competitive points.

Even in professional sports, being called out for cheating is a slow matter. It can happen instantly, on the field, but puts a halt to the game and costs actual money. Often times its easier to just let the game go through and ban people after the fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CardBoardKing wrote:
Let's not lose sight of the real take away here BOLS is fething garbage, and their "article" on the issue was literally saying nothing. Will be speaking to Aaron Aelong tonight after 8pm EST on Facebook live www.facebook.com/thedroppod
I have also spoken to Allen Bajramovic, and will be speaking with others involved including the TO and judges. People can draw their own conclusions from all of that.


I mean, that's BoLS.

Does anyone really expect any different from the site that redesigned their entire website to work WORSE and have even MORE ads?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 16:34:58


 
   
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McCragge

From the ATC FB Page:

We know that many of you are waiting to hear a statement from us concerning some issues this year's 40k event and that WILL happen soon. For now, thank you all again and we hope that everyone made it home safe!
-Shane & Chris

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Been Around the Block





I have to say, given what I've heard so far, it definitely casts all their previous wins in a suspicious light. Were they legitimate, or were they cheating then as well?
   
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What were the other teams (who weren't punished) doing to cheat?


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Maryland

 Virules wrote:
What were the other teams (who weren't punished) doing to cheat?


The only other major thing I'm aware of is Quality Control had 4 enginseers in one of their lists. When this was realized, the player was given an auto-loss on that round and for the remainder of the event he dropped units to replace one with a dominus to make the list legal. At the time it occurred, QC and the player said they would accept whatever ruling whether it be to play down a detachment or retroactive changes, etc.

It's really not a comparable situation. While it's everyone's responsibility to use a legal list, lists were available for crowdsourced checking ahead of the event. Additionally the player of that army has a spotless history, and he basically only plays at ATC each year. It was clear that it was an honest mistake.

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 morgendonner wrote:
 Virules wrote:
What were the other teams (who weren't punished) doing to cheat?


The only other major thing I'm aware of is Quality Control had 4 enginseers in one of their lists. When this was realized, the player was given an auto-loss on that round and for the remainder of the event he dropped units to replace one with a dominus to make the list legal. At the time it occurred, QC and the player said they would accept whatever ruling whether it be to play down a detachment or retroactive changes, etc.

It's really not a comparable situation. While it's everyone's responsibility to use a legal list, lists were available for crowdsourced checking ahead of the event. Additionally the player of that army has a spotless history, and he basically only plays at ATC each year. It was clear that it was an honest mistake.


How do you miss something like that though? You have months to prepare your army, you know there's a 3 datasheet limit... how do you accidentally put an extra of something into your list? I don't get it that one, but it was good that he was a good sport about it at least.
   
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Fort Campbell

Not sure whats garbage about that article. Stating facts about what happened, then discusses personal thoughts on how to fix it.

But as when all "celebrities" are thrown into a negative light, people will bend over backwards to excuse the inexcusable.

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Because it wasn't extra it was brought and paid for in his list it was just a 4th repeat of the same unit when your only meant to take 3 repeats.

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drbored wrote:
 morgendonner wrote:
 Virules wrote:
What were the other teams (who weren't punished) doing to cheat?


The only other major thing I'm aware of is Quality Control had 4 enginseers in one of their lists. When this was realized, the player was given an auto-loss on that round and for the remainder of the event he dropped units to replace one with a dominus to make the list legal. At the time it occurred, QC and the player said they would accept whatever ruling whether it be to play down a detachment or retroactive changes, etc.

It's really not a comparable situation. While it's everyone's responsibility to use a legal list, lists were available for crowdsourced checking ahead of the event. Additionally the player of that army has a spotless history, and he basically only plays at ATC each year. It was clear that it was an honest mistake.


How do you miss something like that though? You have months to prepare your army, you know there's a 3 datasheet limit... how do you accidentally put an extra of something into your list? I don't get it that one, but it was good that he was a good sport about it at least.

My guess is that he might have often taken 4 of them before the rule and just got used to it. Also, the one negative of the crowdsourced rules is if nobody has finds your list illegal your more likely to not double check. But it sounds like they were sorry it happened and handled it correctly
   
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A Protoss colony world

I'd be in favor of 3 or 6 month bans from ITC events for cheaters, if you could get all the TO's at said events to enforce those bans and not let banned players play. In professional sports, players are given suspensions or even lifetime bans for cheating (like using steroids, etc.) or even just poor sportsmanship. We need to do the same with 40k cheaters and take a hard line against that kind of thing. Many on the internet seem to think the competitive 40k scene is a complete joke now, and it'll only get worse if cheaters continue to get off lightly for their behavior.

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CT

Quality control here.

We’re very sorry that our admech player took 4 engineers instead of three and one dominus. He hasn’t played in many events in months and I hate to say it but we’ve been busy with other things and none of us checked it very closely.

When it was brought to our attention we gave up full points in the round and they asked him to drop his dunecrawler to make up the points difference of switching the enginseer for a dominus.

There was discussion of further sanctions such as our player removing an entire battalion in order to make the list legal instead. We voiced that we would be accepting of those terms if that was asked of us, as we felt extremely bad for letting the event down in such a way. And our player and team were willing to lose the 500-800pts if that was asked of us by the tournament organizers and other captains.

- Sean not the captain of quality control

 
   
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Seattle, WA

 CardBoardKing wrote:
Let's not lose sight of the real take away here BOLS is fething garbage, and their "article" on the issue was literally saying nothing. Will be speaking to Aaron Aelong tonight after 8pm EST on Facebook live www.facebook.com/thedroppod
I have also spoken to Allen Bajramovic, and will be speaking with others involved including the TO and judges. People can draw their own conclusions from all of that.


No one takes BOLS seriously so it's pretty silly to claim that the real story is that BOLS is garbage. Your comment made me look at BOLS for the first time in about a year and their take on it is pretty reasonable. Not every problem can be solved by yelling "fake news" and that the real story is the story tellers.
   
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OrdoSean wrote:
Quality control here.

We’re very sorry that our admech player took 4 engineers instead of three and one dominus. He hasn’t played in many events in months and I hate to say it but we’ve been busy with other things and none of us checked it very closely.

When it was brought to our attention we gave up full points in the round and they asked him to drop his dunecrawler to make up the points difference of switching the enginseer for a dominus.

There was discussion of further sanctions such as our player removing an entire battalion in order to make the list legal instead. We voiced that we would be accepting of those terms if that was asked of us, as we felt extremely bad for letting the event down in such a way. And our player and team were willing to lose the 500-800pts if that was asked of us by the tournament organizers and other captains.

- Sean not the captain of quality control


And that is the difference. Kudos.

   
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Fort Campbell

OrdoSean wrote:
Quality control here.

We’re very sorry that our admech player took 4 engineers instead of three and one dominus. He hasn’t played in many events in months and I hate to say it but we’ve been busy with other things and none of us checked it very closely.

When it was brought to our attention we gave up full points in the round and they asked him to drop his dunecrawler to make up the points difference of switching the enginseer for a dominus.

There was discussion of further sanctions such as our player removing an entire battalion in order to make the list legal instead. We voiced that we would be accepting of those terms if that was asked of us, as we felt extremely bad for letting the event down in such a way. And our player and team were willing to lose the 500-800pts if that was asked of us by the tournament organizers and other captains.

- Sean not the captain of quality control


See, that's why I didn't want to talk on this one. I was told an entirely different team had been responsible for it. But I think because you guys were so conciliatory, that's why nothing more was made of it.

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Southeastern PA, USA

auticus wrote:
Cheating has been a time honored tradition of tournaments since there were tournaments. Its only now that cameras expose a lot of it that we see more and more of it.

Tournament players want to legitimize their tournaments then cheaters need a blacklist.


As an longbeard that goes back to the first ever US GT...this is correct.

Of course, the stakes have changed. Where there was once a trophy and bragging rights, now there are cash prizes and world rankings and championships. And where there was once GW acting as a kind of unbiased governing body, now you have individual TOs acting in their own interests.

If they want their 40K 'sport'...fine! That's how some people like to play. But then you have to treat it as a sport, with a focus on fairness and real consequences for breaking rules. Too many of these TOs want to have it both ways, and you're going to see these kinds of controversies and drama until that dichotomy is better resolved.

I have no first-hand knowledge about the particulars in this case, so I'm hesitant to applaud the TO or throw mud at any players. Theoretically, I support a TO taking a no-nonsense approach where it's warranted, though.

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