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 Aben Zin wrote:
The solution is simple.
Just re-base your models on some nice square bases...

...obliterate the mortal realms... and reintroduce the Old World.

Fixed that for you.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Aben Zin wrote:
The solution is simple.
Just re-base your models on some nice square bases...

...obliterate the mortal realms... and reintroduce the Old World.

Fixed that for you.

No, just no. We don't need anymore ill will. BUT we can INTRODUCE the OLD WORLD into one of the "planes" or "realms" of Age of Sigmar.

So Forge World should just do Fantasy Battles and finish the Bretonnians, damnit.

I think Bloviator is right. WHFB should just be a game set in the (glorious) past like 30k is. There's no way GW are going to fix it in a decent way at this point.

I already have a campaign set up where a portal back before the end times is opened and the object is an artifact on Ulthuan.

...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

Only when its travelling at exactly 8.8mph!

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

Only when its travelling at exactly 8.8mph!

8.8? Did the decimal get in their by accident? Or am I missing something?

Davor wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

Only when its travelling at exactly 8.8mph!

8.8? Did the decimal get in their by accident? Or am I missing something?

It's a Doomwheel not a Delorean so I figured 8.8 was a better speed than 88! I mean imagine a Doomwheel going at 88mph! There would be rats flying every which way falling and being blown off it!

 Overread wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

Only when its travelling at exactly 8.8mph!

8.8? Did the decimal get in their by accident? Or am I missing something?

It's a Doomwheel not a Delorean so I figured 8.8 was a better speed than 88! I mean imagine a Doomwheel going at 88mph! There would be rats flying every which way falling and being blown off it!

Isn't that the whole point of skaven technology?

Yeah but at 88mph they'll overshoot the battlefield and that's just a waste of good rats

 Overread wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
...after which they must travel back to the future on a doomwheel struck by warp-lightning!

Only when its travelling at exactly 8.8mph!

8.8? Did the decimal get in their by accident? Or am I missing something?

It's a Doomwheel not a Delorean so I figured 8.8 was a better speed than 88! I mean imagine a Doomwheel going at 88mph! There would be rats flying every which way falling and being blown off it!

Thank you. So I was missing something.

To answer the OP, the game needs to work at all points levels so new players can get in on the gaming side of things sooner rather than later. And given the number of people coming to the game for the first time is increasing, that means the norm in a lot of areas is still 1000 points.

Having Allarielle take up half your points in a 1500-2000 point game is exactly what she should do. She is a goddess. Not some heroic mortal general. If you want more of a feel of soldiers then don't take single huge models as your starting point. *You* get to choose what's in your army.

I really don’t like “let’s get one unit and slam a hundred buffs on it so that it’s unkillble and can deal a hundred wounds on 2 plus and all that nonesense. I want to see two armies of toy soldiers kill each other I am really not interested in the mathhammer. It’s why I loathe how the game encourages dithering over which unit should strike next.

This is the nature of a synergy based game with very open army construction. This is a dial you also have control over when it comes to making your army, but to get other people to join you, you're going to have to talk to them and ask them to do so.

One thing a friend of mine with similar tastes to you suggested.was that a unit could be subject to one outside ability per turn. So it's own abilities on it's warscroll and then one ability from another source. One prayer or one spell or one command ability and that's it.

My response was: How about I just don't build an army around buffing one unit and we both just take stuff that doesn't synergize like a tournament list?

The need for a house rule went away in that case.

I dont see why people have a hard time playing larger games time wise. I regularly play games of 6000 points + in about 3-4 hours. I think people are intimidated by the idea of fielding that many models, and yes it is harder to keep track of things, but there are ways to solve that.

Honestly the case is the same with any game, If you and your opponents know the rules and are good at keeping focused on the game itself. More models actually increases the game speed exponentially. Im not saying its as fast as a 2000 point match, but since theres so many more things going on, units tend to die alot quicker. This little phenomenon is most apparent to me in games of the Horus Heresy, (I wouldn't walk across the room for a 2000 point game of 30k) large scale battles are in my eyes what the rules were written for. And never in the 5 years and hundreds of games that I have played over 5-15k have I ever thought it was taking to long.

Of course this is my personal experience. At the same time I can see the draw of a very tight, small scale army where every model has its purpose in the grand scheme of things. I just prefer the aesthetic of massive armies obliterating each other.

Below is a recent project I finished in order to help keep myself focused and remember everything my Hallowed Knights are equipped with. I took the Shadespire card sleeves and primed a magic card black, then just typed and printed all the relics, mount traits, command abilities, command traits, and spells and slid them over the cards. I then place them by the warscroll card that is equipped with said additions kinda like X-wing.

You might manage it, but most players cannot finish a 6k+ game in that amount of time. Nor do many players even want a game to go even 3-4 hours. Also the army is a factor. Some factions will be physically impossible to do games of that size due to the sheer weight of dice rolls and model movement required.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You might manage it, but most players cannot finish a 6k+ game in that amount of time. Nor do many players even want a game to go even 3-4 hours. Also the army is a factor. Some factions will be physically impossible to do games of that size due to the sheer weight of dice rolls and model movement required.

I remember 3-4 hours being a pretty standard game length back in the day. I guess people are accustomed to fast paced 2 hour or under games now a days. My normal opponent in sigmar plays flesh eater cohorts, and I used to play Skaven in these massive games. So I would disagree with your final statement. He manages fine with 400+ models on the table.

Games do tend to creep up in size to absorb the available amount of time. So I could see larger games actually be able to be finished in under 4 hours.

That said, there's probably a range of paces that are enjoyed by a variety of players.

I don't think there's anything wrong with big games, small games, medium games, whatever. And played either rapidly with a chess clock or at a relaxed pace with all sorts of chatting and distractions. Really, whatever people are into.

I do suspect though that many people, especially those with younger children, have a limit to their availability. I know our own group tends to be hosted at different people's houses precisely because they have to stay home while children are asleep and a looming early morning of getting them ready for school and then heading to work means it's not okay to take more and more time to finish a game.

Smaller games let people play at a relaxed pace while larger games in the same amount of available time would have to be more efficient and focused.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I do suspect though that many people, especially those with younger children, have a limit to their availability. I know our own group tends to be hosted at different people's houses precisely because they have to stay home while children are asleep and a looming early morning of getting them ready for school and then heading to work means it's not okay to take more and more time to finish a game.

Smaller games let people play at a relaxed pace while larger games in the same amount of available time would have to be more efficient and focused.

This is a very fair point!

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You might manage it, but most players cannot finish a 6k+ game in that amount of time. Nor do many players even want a game to go even 3-4 hours. Also the army is a factor. Some factions will be physically impossible to do games of that size due to the sheer weight of dice rolls and model movement required.

I remember 3-4 hours being a pretty standard game length back in the day. I guess people are accustomed to fast paced 2 hour or under games now a days. My normal opponent in sigmar plays flesh eater cohorts, and I used to play Skaven in these massive games. So I would disagree with your final statement. He manages fine with 400+ models on the table.

Honestly I do not believe that if one guy is playing 400+ models is it done in 3-4 hours unless the other side has tremendous shooting such that the FEC does not see melee in a significant way, or short cuts are being made. It is not mechanically possible to move everything and roll that many dice that fast without error. If there were movement trays, pile-ins were being simplified/skipped, and dice were being rolled digitally then I could see it. It also does not undermine the point that most players could not achieve a 3-4 hour game of that size. Hell just finding two players each with 6000 points of a single army is not common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Games do tend to creep up in size to absorb the available amount of time. So I could see larger games actually be able to be finished in under 4 hours.

That said, there's probably a range of paces that are enjoyed by a variety of players.

I don't think there's anything wrong with big games, small games, medium games, whatever. And played either rapidly with a chess clock or at a relaxed pace with all sorts of chatting and distractions. Really, whatever people are into.

I do suspect though that many people, especially those with younger children, have a limit to their availability. I know our own group tends to be hosted at different people's houses precisely because they have to stay home while children are asleep and a looming early morning of getting them ready for school and then heading to work means it's not okay to take more and more time to finish a game.

Smaller games let people play at a relaxed pace while larger games in the same amount of available time would have to be more efficient and focused.

An unspoken factor, at least here in the US, is that people are generally working longer hours with less pay and little vacation. The average American is far more stressed and low on sleep now than they were 20 years ago.

To be honest I usually prefer smaller games, not in the least because that often means you can get more in. In my area, most Warhammer games take upwards of 4 hours to play at 2000 points, if not more, so I generally enjoy playing 1000-1250 points. The main downside is that certain lists become incredibly strong at that point level even if you aren't trying. I'd rather not simply just always play 2000 points all the time like so many people prefer.

When I started wargaming in the late 80s, a battle would take 4-6 hours. It would be the majority of a saturday or an entire weeknight evening and that was ok.

Starting around the mid 2000s I noticed a trend where people started not liking this and faster and faster games were desired.

Today - if a game goes beyond 90 minutes to two hours, you are typically going to get some complaining.

My own personal attention span is now about 3 hours. Once we've passed 3 hours, unless its a nail biter... I'm usually happy to end it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You might manage it, but most players cannot finish a 6k+ game in that amount of time. Nor do many players even want a game to go even 3-4 hours. Also the army is a factor. Some factions will be physically impossible to do games of that size due to the sheer weight of dice rolls and model movement required.

I remember 3-4 hours being a pretty standard game length back in the day. I guess people are accustomed to fast paced 2 hour or under games now a days. My normal opponent in sigmar plays flesh eater cohorts, and I used to play Skaven in these massive games. So I would disagree with your final statement. He manages fine with 400+ models on the table.

Honestly I do not believe that if one guy is playing 400+ models is it done in 3-4 hours unless the other side has tremendous shooting such that the FEC does not see melee in a significant way, or short cuts are being made. It is not mechanically possible to move everything and roll that many dice that fast without error. If there were movement trays, pile-ins were being simplified/skipped, and dice were being rolled digitally then I could see it. It also does not undermine the point that most players could not achieve a 3-4 hour game of that size. Hell just finding two players each with 6000 points of a single army is not common.
.

It is absolutely possible, without movement trays, without skipping or simplifying anything. Its just fast dice rolling and a solid understanding of the rules. And these games aren't usually going 5-6 turns. Things are destroyed in such magnitude that in 2-3 turns the field is almost barren. I've had a unit of 20 Decimators kill over 100 ghouls in a single combat once, and a turn that I killed 8 terrorgeists in. Sigmar is damned brutal when it comes to larger games.

I simply do not see it being possible. Setup alone of 400 models takes time, moving them all takes time, moving them again for charges, again for pile ins, then rolling hundreds of dice for attacks, again for wounds, again for saves. Even doing that just twice will take up a ton of time. I have no doubt it can happen, but I simply do not believe that there is any regularity to 12,000 points of models being moved, attacking, making saves, and being physically put on and off the table in 3-4 hours. Not to mention spells, abilities, extra 'feel no pain' saves, etc. It is not about rules, it is about the time it takes to physically perform those actions.

I feel like there must be one or more factors I am unaware of.

At any rate, the above is still on top of other factors; the financial investment to buy a 6k point army, the effort to build it let alone paint it, transporting it, etc.