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fishwaffle2232 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Has anyone managed to make an all-CSM kill team viable? I have a bunch of Fallen Angels converted up, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. I'm hoping I can get away without needing any cultists (since they don't really fit as allies for the Fallen, IMO)...

I am running a fallen killteam and i have to disagree with you on cultists not fitting for the fallen.
It is written into the fluff that the fallen are known to go to planets and cause rebellions or convince others to fight for them. Cultists fit this role perfectly. Plus it is very rare for fallen to travel in large groups, so having 4 or so leading some cultists fits perfectly.

To answer your question though, I think straight csm could work, but it would miss out on the benefits of cultists which provide good meatshields, flamers and stubbers and a cheap leader to allow you to make your aspiring champion a zealot instead, which i believe is currently our best close combat option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way, chaos are gonna struggle against most other killteams. We just dont do anything better than anyone else.

I think Beseech The Dark Gods is one of our best toys. I joke about inevitably exploding cultist, but for a chaos marine with a heavy bolter it's brutal. A hit on 2+, wound on 2+, 3 shot heavy weapon which has the range to put 'close range' fire across most of the board is pretty much without equal in the rules, and a lot of kill teams don't get a true heavy weapon at all. Grandfather's Blessing is similar but plague marines lack anyone really suitable to hand it to, and thousand sons lack it completely.

Death To The False Emperor is an opponent specific rule but Imperium is a pretty good opponent to have a specific rule against, covering 5 very popular kill-teams. More importantly, it's equivalent to an astartes 1CP stratagem, on every model, all the time. Yes, thousand sons and death guard get it too, but thousand sons only get their sorceror melee-armed, and Death Guard - whilst they get the nice face-beating fighters - are expensive and slower. Icon of Khorne makes charges very reliable for 1 point and fury of khorne can let you really chop up bunched up enemies, especially on a zealot.

For utterly disgusting destruction, Beseech The Dark Gods with a Khornate Zealot. Firstly he throws out 3 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s with +1 to wound, and 6's to hit getting an extra attack, but for 1CP in subsequent rounds he can killing frenzy, for an extra, extra attack on 6's to hit, or for 2CP fight twice. For a model that's bought all its extra punch with specialist skills and stratagems, not points, that's impressive.

Plus, in 100 points, the slight cost advantage of 'normal' marines over cult marines magnifies; 12 points allows 8 chainsword-wielding nutjobs (well, 7 chainswords and 1 power sword), which outnumbers any marine equivalent (accepting that one-on-one reivers would beat you) and outclassing most non-astartes.

I'd hope we'll see a world eaters kill team or daemonkin (bezerkers/possessed?) kill team sooner or later, but until then, I think flying the brass skull high is the best option for 'normal' CSM. (as and when we get a starter box with extra stratagems I hope there's tactics for the other three marks, though)

Yea I guess a 5/6 chance of getting +1 to hit and wound for the whole game on a S 5 3 shot weapon is worth the risk, a reall backfield threat.
For fluff reasons im not running khorne but i think close combat Cultists supported by CSM and flamers may be the way to go. As long as you keep them close to each other they are gonna be able to dish out a solid amount of hits in CC. Plus they have pistols for the shooting phase.

I got a win running autogun cultists, but it didnt feel strong. None of my basic cultists got any kills. The modifiers to hit on a base 4+ really neuter them.

locarno24 wrote:
I think Beseech The Dark Gods is one of our best toys. I joke about inevitably exploding cultist, but for a chaos marine with a heavy bolter it's brutal. A hit on 2+, wound on 2+, 3 shot heavy weapon which has the range to put 'close range' fire across most of the board is pretty much without equal in the rules, and a lot of kill teams don't get a true heavy weapon at all. Grandfather's Blessing is similar but plague marines lack anyone really suitable to hand it to, and thousand sons lack it completely.

That's really tasty and makes me feel better about being limited to just a heavy b when it comes to big guns. I had planned on using BTDG on my cultist champ and going ham, but I'm digging embracing the madness and slapping it on the gunner. Had a passing thought to give it to my stubber cultist to bring him up to a second heavy bolter, with demolitionist upping the power vs all those dudes in cover ...

Also here's a +1 to other god tactics. Building a Slaanesh crew because reasons, would be groovy to have some bonuses for it, apart from the kinda overcosted icon.

- Salvage

I gave all my CSM the Slaanesh mark (because I heart Slaanesh) but not the icon only to find that the single game impact was versus Craftworlders, who I just happened to be playing that night.

Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.

locarno24 wrote:
Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.

Well that makes close combat a more viable option. On the charge you will on average gain 2 attacks if you use both tactics. Thats also hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s against most things. Pretty solid.

I guess it will depend who we are playing against but I think I am still leaning towards having BtDG on a Heavy or Stubber guy for the extra fire power to supplement a more close combat oriented force. 6 shots a turn from 2 models that can be set up in the "backfield" with decent odds of hitting is pretty solid.

So, I took it upon myself to look into the collection, and try to make a decent Command Roster for balance.

20 models total to choose from.

2 Leaders: One for fighting, one for hiding.
CSM Champ, Sword
Cultist Champ, autogun

8 Specialists: Cycle in most appropriate.

CSM Champ, Sword, Zealot
CSM, Icon, Veteran
2 CSM Gunners, 2 H. Bolter, Heavy, Demo
2 CSM Gunner, 2 Plasma, Heavy, Sniper
2 CSM Gunner, 2 Flamers, Heavy, Demo

10 Non Specialists: The gap filler.

3 Cultists, autoguns
4 CSM, Bolters
3 CSM, Chainswords

So, this kinda revives my CSM collection, and gives some unit diversity (as much as we can get) for whatever Mission is played.

Hmm. Ah damn. Didn't realize I couldn't double down on the heavies and special weapon on the field. Oh well same principle. The roster is the same, I just don't have to bring 2 pairs of Specials and HB models with me.

What’s the plan for the the 17% of games where BtDG leaves us with no Heavy Bolter?

My head is saying well, at least it’s only a 1.7% chance that a decent heavy gunner will fail that and then actually die, but my gut is saying that it will happen annoyingly often

 lindsay40k wrote:
What’s the plan for the the 17% of games where BtDG leaves us with no Heavy Bolter?

My head is saying well, at least it’s only a 1.7% chance that a decent heavy gunner will fail that and then actually die, but my gut is saying that it will happen annoyingly often

Stubber is a less risky target. Demo stubber is still a heavy hitting option plus you can have a Hbolter csm gunner as well.

Anyone found a solution to being stunlocked?
Last 2 rounds of five last game all was stunned so vouldnt do anything, just hope to survive and win the objectives.

They did not survive lol.

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Anyone found a solution to being stunlocked?
Last 2 rounds of five last game all was stunned so vouldnt do anything, just hope to survive and win the objectives.

They did not survive lol.

Shaken?

Keep your guys close together so that they are less likely to fail their nerve tests. You can take an icon of vengeance too .

Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.

Its tough but mitigated by keeping guys close together. Its the biggest weakness of running lots of cultists but im not sure there is another way to solve this issue. What you get for the point investment is great with cultists but surviving in the face of casulties is tough. I think all hordes will face this issue.

Yeah.
At least when elite armies take tests they have higher Ld.

Tske the icon of vengeance, it gives +1 ld

I did.

Don’t forget the leadership strategem

It might cost 2, but if you use it on the right fella, you can try to fight back.

It’s also a good reason to run a Veteran as one of our CSM Specialist. Just to ignore the modifications to the tests

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Yeah shaken.
When 8 guys are dead you have to add 8 to your nerve test roll.
So unless you have 8 models within 2" you're gonna fail.

You've still got to roll more than your leadership of 5, and - unlike checking if you are broken, flesh wounded models don't count.
So yes, you'll need to bundle models into pseudo-squads, but - say - 6 models clustered together can keep moving half the time.

That is a point making autogun cultists more useful - because once a low ld melee model is shaken, it's basically useless.

locarno24 wrote:
Oh - slight correction on Death To The False Emperor/Killing Frenzy/Beseech The Dark Gods combination.

Because Beseech The Dark Gods gives you +1 on rolls to hit, remember it doesn't just turn a 2 into a 3 for a hit, it also turns a 5 into a 6 to trigger Death To The False Emperor and Killing Frenzy, doubling the number of bonus attacks you'll rack up. Stack these three rules together on a zealot specialist and you can deliver serious punishment.

Yep I'm liking this train of thought!

At the cost of dropping the Khorne, you could combo this up with the Icon of Excess...now you are triggering Death to the False Emperor on 4+

Hmm. So, melee Cultists to banzai charge and disrupt the foe, autogunners to hide and achieve victory conditions when the rabble have done their business.

Icon of Wrath to ensure the duellists reach the foe, perhaps with Zealot? Slaanesh is just too reliant on your matchup - wasted points if you’re not fighting Imperium, liability against Harlequins.

Suggest both Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber models get Heavy. If you kill your own super-suppressor with prayers, having someone else who can fire 6 shots that inflict -1 to hit might be a necessity.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. So, melee Cultists to banzai charge and disrupt the foe, autogunners to hide and achieve victory conditions when the rabble have done their business.

Icon of Wrath to ensure the duellists reach the foe, perhaps with Zealot? Slaanesh is just too reliant on your matchup - wasted points if you’re not fighting Imperium, liability against Harlequins.

Suggest both Heavy Bolter and Heavy Stubber models get Heavy. If you kill your own super-suppressor with prayers, having someone else who can fire 6 shots that inflict -1 to hit might be a necessity.

Correct me if im wrong but I don't think you can take two heavy specialists in the same kill team. Demolitions is a good alternative for stubber though.

You are quite right, my bad. Hmm. I’m torn between the killpower of a 2+/2+ Heavy Bolter that’s absent for 17% of games and has a 10% chance of never coming back from a missed game, and - from game three in a campaign onwards - a reliably present -1 to hit debuff on up to six enemie per turn, depending on their spread. If suppressor required an actual hit to trigger, then maybe not.

Hmm. Might be worth taking two HBs in a campaign list, and when you play weaker teams train up a second suppressor, just in case your main gunner says the wrong prayer and becomes one with the Warp. Wouldn’t like to lose such a powerful warrior before a game against a well trained team.

Hey,
quick thoughts from you.

I want to paint a 4th army for KT and this feels a perfect place to make some Fallen. Heretic astartes rules and no marks me think is the best way to do it? Cultists could be easily added I think, if me renegades are a small group of merc fallen who have some fanatics joined their cause.

Restrictions are shooting yourself in the leg, but I want to try it anyways.. feel free to suggest, but I was thinking and start re-building and making a new dark grey paint scheme with the following (inspired by Luthermax):

 lindsay40k wrote:
You are quite right, my bad. Hmm. I’m torn between the killpower of a 2+/2+ Heavy Bolter that’s absent for 17% of games and has a 10% chance of never coming back from a missed game, and - from game three in a campaign onwards - a reliably present -1 to hit debuff on up to six enemie per turn, depending on their spread. If suppressor required an actual hit to trigger, then maybe not.

Hmm. Might be worth taking two HBs in a campaign list, and when you play weaker teams train up a second suppressor, just in case your main gunner says the wrong prayer and becomes one with the Warp. Wouldn’t like to lose such a powerful warrior before a game against a well trained team.

I like beseeching the gods on a plasma sniper because it effectively guarantees an out of action each turn overcharged even against obscured and far away targets. I also have more plasma snipers in the wheelhouse in case the first one perma dies though

npe wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
You are quite right, my bad. Hmm. I’m torn between the killpower of a 2+/2+ Heavy Bolter that’s absent for 17% of games and has a 10% chance of never coming back from a missed game, and - from game three in a campaign onwards - a reliably present -1 to hit debuff on up to six enemie per turn, depending on their spread. If suppressor required an actual hit to trigger, then maybe not.

Hmm. Might be worth taking two HBs in a campaign list, and when you play weaker teams train up a second suppressor, just in case your main gunner says the wrong prayer and becomes one with the Warp. Wouldn’t like to lose such a powerful warrior before a game against a well trained team.

I like beseeching the gods on a plasma sniper because it effectively guarantees an out of action each turn overcharged even against obscured and far away targets. I also have more plasma snipers in the wheelhouse in case the first one perma dies though

I may be missing something here, but Beseech the Gods only interacts with hit and wound rolls? Not injury rolls?

And +1 to wound on a plasma is a bit of waste. Overcharged you're wounding up to T4 on 2's anyway (and 1s always fail)

It is a good idea to have redundancy in your command roster though.

So, I was thinking on the ways to make a full cultist Kill Team, and it seems that nobody really noticed/cared how cheap the Icon of Flame is... or how cheap cultists are. I'm a stickler for fluff, and I love the creative aspect of 40k, so I prompted myself to make a god dedicated cult. I have seen the theme of Khornate teams, but no mention of a Tzeentchite Icon spam with cultist. Here's the list I was thinking of, tell me if it's trash or not.

6pts: Cultist Champion (Leader): Shotgun, Undivided, Icon of Vengeance.

8pts: Cultist Gunner (Heavy): Flamer, Tzeentchite, Icon of Flame.

8pts: Cultist Gunner (Demolitions): Flamer, Tzeentchite, Icon of Flame.

4pts: Cultist (Combat): CC/AP, Khornate(for the Fury o Khorne tactic).

40pts: 8x Cultist: CC/AP, Tzeentchite, Icon of Flame.

20pts: 4x Cultist: Autogun, Tzeentchite, Icon of Flame.

10pts: 2x Cultists: Autogun, Undivided, Icon of Vengeance.(For moralw support)


This list is just focused on getting within 12" to get the IoF spam on enemy models. I haven't played it yet, but I think it could be a real wild card in the psychic phase.

Sadly, you may only take a single Icon, and it may only be carried by a Space Marine

Really... I was under the impression you could take more than one due to the wording on the Icon of Flame "At the start of your turn on the Psychic Phase, roll a D6 for EACH model on your kill team equipped with the IoF ..."
I guess your right though, seemed too good to be true. Such is the hopes of a novice... to be crushed.

Yeah, I guess that terminology might be to accommodate team games. Sadly the force options don’t allow for it in a single team.

Played my first couple games with a CSM-heavy team, didn't feel as under-powered as I thought it would. The lack of options is deeply frustrating, but in-game BS 3+, WS 3+ and Save 3+ are all pretty clutch in the smaller scale. I do find it disappointing how generic CSM feel - even compared to vanilla marines, CSM feel like the generic MEQ statline. Which theoretically is still pretty pimping in KT, however I've also only ever faced MEQ++ (DW with vet stats, Primaris with uber stats) at this point, with the exception of tabling a fledgling Tau team (my own ). I actually lost last night's game against DW after a promising start - dropped both frag cannons before they could fire! - by having CSM with a single flesh wound shake repeatedly and then failing my first break test, which reminded me how meh our LD is as well. Speaking of last night, successfully Beseeched my heavy bolter bro, despite some trepidation. 2+ to hit/wound is indeed sweet

I do have an ongoing struggle for y'all: chainswords or boltguns? I went 50/50 with non-gunners/leader and still don't know. With no AP and so few attaks, chainswords feel pretty bleh, but then I'm finding KT engages really quickly, and 1 attak really is pretty garbage. Also, DTTFE is one of our few faction bonuses, and you gotta melee to use it, so ought you not tool for that? BUT THEN bolt pistols are dumb because long range 6-12", even without AP boltgun weight of fire can be ok, etc, etc. I just keep going in circles, and my CSM models for the most part all have bolters + ccw

- Salvage