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WRT pistols: worth noting that you have one shooting phase for every fight phase. Whereas, in 40k, you have a shooting phase for every other fight phase. So, once melee becomes a protracted brawl, pistols will be fired up to twice as often as usual.

Yeah I think movement is going to be quite key. So is range. Pushing out the range at which you have -1 to hit seems pretty important. Going second with something like intercessors should allow you to get favourable positions where the other guy has -1 to hit you and you are at full BS.

The veteran tactic that lets you move before the game starts looks very useful. I’m not sure if the skill itself is all that great. Something like a stealth suit, lictor or a Reiver getting a free move before the game could be seriously useful though.

I like the turn sequence here better than in normal 40k. It would be pretty easy to transfer it across. The only thing is that it makes it harder to assault, as you don’t get to do it after a normal move. That could be remedied by having charges happen in the shooting phase, as a choice that units could make instead of shooting.

Durability chart. Take with grain of salt because Flesh Wounds and all the -1s to hit are hard to evaluate.
Red is bad, Green is good

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Durability chart. Take with grain of salt because Flesh Wounds and all the -1s to hit are hard to evaluate.
Red is bad, Green is good

Spoiler:

How did you calculate this? For example, why lictors are bad against lasgun fire when an ork boy is average? They have the same cost per wound but the lictor has a 5+ save, so i expected them to better than boyz.

You get around 0.8 wounds per model in terms of flesh wounds. So that's 6.4 wounds vs 4.8 for a bigger price

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You get around 0.8 wounds per model in terms of flesh wounds. So that's 6.4 wounds vs 4.8 for a bigger price

Makes sense.

Ah. So, if you face 4 wounds worth of Ork Boyz, each successful wound has a set chance of just being a FW, whereas if you face 4 wounds worth of Lictor, the first three successful wounds will definitely stick. Hmm.

Plus, Melta (and KrakMis) can only kill one Ork at a time, but has a chance of one shotting a Lictor.

But what actually were your calculations, and what do the numbers mean? Why, for example, does a stealth suit have 2.26 against a lasgun but only 0.82 against a bolter?

Is it some kind of calculation of how many shots are required to kill the model and its cost?

I’m curious about the 0.8 flesh wounds thing. Half the time (or one third if obscured) you get taken out of action. The rest of the time you’re pretty seriously weakened, especially if only hitting on a 4 or 5 to start with. I think you might be overstating the help this gives to single-wound models.

I think that we all need to get some games under our belt, but surely being wounded is not small matter.

-1 to hit, morale test every turn and if half the list is OOA/wounded you roll every turn for broken team.

Well this is pure durability. This doesn't take into account the model getting weaker offensivelly. However remember the -1 on injury rolls if you're in cover. I've been mostly in cover every game I've played.

Right now it's "shots to kill the model divided by pts cost". Also every non 12'' weapon model is -1 to hit.

Ok that’s cool. I’m still unclear on the stealth suit’s lasgun and bolt gun stats, as the two weapons aren’t as different as this seems to indicate.

Lots of things contribute to durability. Models with longer-ranged guns can stay out of trouble a lot better, while still killing things. The difference between 9” for close range on a burst cannon and 15” on a bolt rifle feels like an awful lot.

My fear when using something like stealth Suits would be that with my 4+ BS, 18” range and enemies often in cover I’d nearly always need a 6 to hit, unless I went dangerously close to things. Meanwhile an intercessor with a bolt rifle can hit targets in cover on a 4+ from quite a long way away. His target might have to leave cover just to get into effective range.

Range also potentially lets you be more aggressive. Say there are some IG in a ruin. An intercessor can move to the 12-15” bracket. Even if not in cover he’s getting two shots hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s, with -1 ap. The IG are getting one shot each, hitting and wounding on 5s with no ap - so the marine gets a save on a 3+ and the IG on a 6.

The IG would be in pretty big trouble in that scenario, even if the marine was not in cover - indeed he is probably better off in the open outside of 12” than in cover within 12”.

Do the IG come out of their cover to increase their damage output, or run away? They can’t stay and fight in that scenario. Or maybe they just put their heads down and try to last out the game if on an objective.

Those durability stats are useful. But winning fights isn’t just about durability - it’s also about killing the enemy. So you kind of want to see who wins shoot outs between equal points worth of models, at different ranges.

Fundamentally long range = options = durability. Short range (or cc-only) = having to go where the enemy is = danger.

Oh, lasguns hit on 6s. Bolguns on 5s. With the -2 that is.

Also, this is the first chart I made because it is the easiest to make. I've done some damage stuff but I have to mentally prepare for doing more than just my 3 armies

And I did take into account range in durability. Range 12 or less weapons is -0.5 to hit. Others are -1.

While durability is good to know and all there is a lot to take into account on what models are more effective in different scenarios.

If you have cheap but fast models, you can hide and then go to an objective with 3 guys on last turn to win it.

If you are expensive but durable, you can move agressively and move past the objectives to scare your opponent into staying back and shoot, then get into enemy objectives and into cc to contest. This might make them overcommit and forget to move out onto the board where the objectives are.

If you have good range and shooting but weak durability, you want to stay back but then how are you getting objectives?

Oh durability is used in conjunction with damage and other stats. This is just so you don't take a list that is too squishy and so you know which armies are squishier and have to overcome it with overwhelming fire power/speed/whatever.

Also so you see where GW fcked up and overpriced something

Currently i don't think that GW made any obvious mistakes.
If you look at that list, for every red slot you can say "Oh yeah, that's fine because x and y".


Time will tell, but kill team is probably highly balanced, simply because games with few choices tend to be much easier to balance.

Has anyone managed to come up with an effective ork list yet? Our ork player just got annihilated in every game we played last night.

fatbudda319 wrote:
Has anyone managed to come up with an effective ork list yet? Our ork player just got annihilated in every game we played last night.

I assume you just go full choppa boyz/kommandos with gretchin leader to hide and run forward like an idiot in a blob so nerves don't destroy you

Ork-en Man wrote:
I noticed in the LVO pack that Tactics were limited to those available in the rule book. Maybe that's only until all 16 factions have their starter sets out. Regardless, I found that interesting.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/03/3rd-aug-kill-team-tournaments-campaigns-and-more-near-yougw-homepage-post-2/

Some of the non rulebook tactics are ridiculous.

stratigo wrote:

Ork-en Man wrote:
I noticed in the LVO pack that Tactics were limited to those available in the rule book. Maybe that's only until all 16 factions have their starter sets out. Regardless, I found that interesting.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/03/3rd-aug-kill-team-tournaments-campaigns-and-more-near-yougw-homepage-post-2/

Some of the non rulebook tactics are ridiculous.

Is there a list of them somewhere? I've been wondering about that.

On the question of how to play Orks, I think they actually look ok. In a weird way I think they suffer less for hit penalties than a lot of other armies, because they aren't paying much for their BS in the first place. If a Loota is firing at Tau, with an average of 2 extremely powerful shots and both sides need 6s to hit, he's in pretty good shape. Likewise 7 points for a gunner with big shoota looks pretty good. You get a weird freedom from always needing 6s. Why not move and shoot, and stay at long range? It hurts the other guy and not you. Whether all that noise would actually accomplish anything is another question...

They might have some pretty bad match ups I suppose. I could see deathwatch causing them some real grief. I'm also not sure how you'd keep your leader alive, unless you make him a grot and hide him somewhere - and hope you don't meet Tau with a SMS turret!

Does anyone else agree that survivability is very important?

Because you need to be alive and not shaken to hold objectives, its better to not die but be able to take them, even if you dont kill so many enemies.

A tips could be to hold objective with a non specialist and keep your cc specialist nearby so they dont want to move into the objective.


Another tips could be to be aware of the auto hits on plague spewer both in offense and as charge deterrent. This is flamers as well.


Another tips could be that you can use you own models as cover for your other models and just run up where you want.

Mandragola wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Ork-en Man wrote:
I noticed in the LVO pack that Tactics were limited to those available in the rule book. Maybe that's only until all 16 factions have their starter sets out. Regardless, I found that interesting.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/03/3rd-aug-kill-team-tournaments-campaigns-and-more-near-yougw-homepage-post-2/

Some of the non rulebook tactics are ridiculous.

Is there a list of them somewhere? I've been wondering about that.

On the question of how to play Orks, I think they actually look ok. In a weird way I think they suffer less for hit penalties than a lot of other armies, because they aren't paying much for their BS in the first place. If a Loota is firing at Tau, with an average of 2 extremely powerful shots and both sides need 6s to hit, he's in pretty good shape. Likewise 7 points for a gunner with big shoota looks pretty good. You get a weird freedom from always needing 6s. Why not move and shoot, and stay at long range? It hurts the other guy and not you. Whether all that noise would actually accomplish anything is another question...

They might have some pretty bad match ups I suppose. I could see deathwatch causing them some real grief. I'm also not sure how you'd keep your leader alive, unless you make him a grot and hide him somewhere - and hope you don't meet Tau with a SMS turret!

there are places to find these without buying the boxes.

I haven't seen the nid one, but the space marine one is real good. The ork one is nice, and the guard one is a little less nice but still nice.

The space marines have one that for 2 CPs lets you turn any out of action into a flesh wound. This is extraordinarily strong, especially knowing that they ignore the penalties from 1 flesh wound. Then they have 1 cp that allows a model to take the number of mortal wounds from a shot AFTER failing a saving through as that shot's damage, meaning you can chump, say, a heavy rail rifle with a scout and leave your missile launcher untouched. And then keep that scout around with the other tactic. And if you accumulate 3 flesh wounds on an important model, there's another strategum for 2 cp that allows you to ignor ALL negatives to your hit modifier for a phase.

The Space marine kill team as it is in the book is uninspiring. It's completely average. The cards the kill team box are really strong. Their strategums are strong enough that you could easily justify cutting models to have more CPs. Wether these would make the kill team good enough to beat other teams with a stronger lineup, I am not sure.

 mrhappyface wrote:

fatbudda319 wrote:
What is shooting like in kill team? I've not had a game yet but all the possible -1 to hit would appear to make it difficult to put people down that way?

It's good enough, not OP. A Deathwatch sniper for instance can always count on firing at enemies in cover at BS3+ re-rolling to hit of 1s (as long as the enemy doesn't have another native -1 to hit.

In my first game we messed up how CQC works so I whiffed with my melee units but I still won through the use of a sniper and a frag cannon.

The -1 to hit mostly hits mid-tier shooting units like guard;

assuming you've got a target in cover 15" away (not an unreasonable assumption), a guardsman or cultist with a rifle gets 1 shot needing a 6 to hit.

an ork boy with a shoota presented with the same target gets two shots needing a 6 to hit, and is strength 4 to boot - meaning about 3 times the firepower in real terms.

a deathwatch intercessor firing dragonfire bolts (these things are generally overlooked in 40k but are epic in killteam) gets 2 S4 shots hitting on 3s - 4 times the firepower of the ork (admittedly at a proportional cost increase) and effectively 12 times (!) the firepower of the guardsman, meaning two of them can trade fire (if not durability) with an entire guard kill-team.


Horde forces at close range, rapid fire in the clear, will turn opponents to chopped meat pretty darn fast, but that's getting scarily close to opponents who are far, far better in melee than they are. Which means you're dependent on gunners with flamers to fend off the nasty men trying to give you chainsword enemas.


And yes, frag cannons are truly disgusting. I mean, you pay for them, but they are amazing. Their only weakness is that whilst they put out a hail of autohitting shots at high strength and acceptable AP, their damage stat means they're not great (for their cost, anyway) at putting someone down for good. If you have a multiwound melee expert, you need a disposable grunt or two to charge first and eat frag cannon fire if you don't want to arrive in melee either flesh-wounded to heck or face-first bleeding on the floor.

This may be a dumb question, but are Faction traits a thing in Kill Team? (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Forgeworld Dogmas, etc)

 Orodhen wrote:
This may be a dumb question, but are Faction traits a thing in Kill Team? (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Forgeworld Dogmas, etc)

Not currently. Maybe in an expansion.

AdMech still get Canticles of the Omnissiah - stuff like that is in, but not the Subfaction Traits.

A bit confused about the Scout LV 1 Tactic allowing reroll advances, when their LV 1 ability does the same thing.

The Tactic reads that its a 2 inch move Or re-roll advance, so.. when would you ever need to pay 2CP to re-roll an advance on a scout?

Also, aren't you only allowed 3 Flesh Wounds before your automatically OOA?

*Sees KT stuff punted to the other category*

Oh well, guess KT discussion was fun while it lasted

I agree. So hard to find if you dont know about it.

I guess we wont get many new people in these discussions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
They should just make this section be named kill team because there is nothing but kill team here anyways.

So, how about that Shadow War, eh?

That game got the bad end of a double ended dildo.

I have had 4 matches with Grey Knights and only lost to another Grey Knight kill team. I keep hearing how they are sub-par but I find they are very powerful. Stormbolter with Psybolt ammo on that key target can be clutch. On top of that you can basically just nuke a model every turn and players, from my experience, generally just are not prepared for Psybolt. Their only downside is that they are an elite team so you get fewer models and lower board control versus more hoard teams.