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Bro, you get 1 CP for free each turn. The warlord gives you another 1 CP for a total of 2.
Also 6 CP a turn is insane. You're looking at 30-42 CP a game.

Dandelion wrote:
Bro, you get 1 CP for free each turn. The warlord gives you another 1 CP for a total of 2.
Also 6 CP a turn is insane. You're looking at 30-42 CP a game.

Well that's 766successfully screwed over a bucket load of factions.
Part of the issue the design of strategums isn't consistent across armies

Alao your still not giving people an opportunity to play pre game strategums as they don't have CP till turn 1.

Pre game strategums are a thing, any solution has to enable a player to spend CP pre deployment and during deployment.
2CP per turn is useless especially if your taking away any and all CP regeneration abilities.

Ice_can wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Bro, you get 1 CP for free each turn. The warlord gives you another 1 CP for a total of 2.
Also 6 CP a turn is insane. You're looking at 30-42 CP a game.

Well that's 766successfully screwed over a bucket load of factions.
Part of the issue the design of strategums isn't consistent across armies

Alao your still not giving people an opportunity to play pre game strategums as they don't have CP till turn 1.

Pre game strategums are a thing, any solution has to enable a player to spend CP pre deployment and during deployment.
2CP per turn is useless especially if your taking away any and all CP regeneration abilities.

Please actually read my post where I go over all that. Thank you.

2 CP is rather small as most useful/Viable stratagems are 2 CP+. Which isn't great when you only get 2 CP a turn.

Considering the fact that most armies go through their whole pool of CP in a turn or 2 (which on average is 8-10) having 6CP a turn when warlord is alive and 3CP a turn when he is dead isn't such a bad idea.

Most armies either:

a) use all CP for deployment purposes

b) Use all their CP on the first turn or

c) just use re-roll and anti charge because they didn't read/haven't gotten their codex stratagems.


I have had 4 dudes i fought have 14 CP list (2 Battalions,1specialist list) and they have gone through their whole pool of CP on the deployment and on the first turn. That is 14CP BEFORE THE FIRST BATTLE ROUND IS OVER

So i like to say that my 6CP a turn isn't actually such a bad idea. Because i know that people will still run out of CP, even with that amount a turn

If CP per turn is desired, diminishing CP per turn should be a thing. Frankly, 70% of armies are dead by the end of turn 3. So if you keep getting the same CP as the first turn, you're going to have Strategems dominating the game, rather than being flavour elements.

Don't get me wrong, maybe that's what people want, but I'd prefer if Strats were flavour elements to the game, rather than the defining factors. Also, 40k is generally a game of fixed resources. This would be changing the game in a fundamental way, to allow replenishing resources.

CP could be translated to a number of bonus "points" that you get to use through the game to give buffs to different units. For example, a 1 CP strat that allows rerolls to an assaulting unit could also be seen as a spontaneous 30 game point ability. Kind of like reserve points, or summoning points that some GW game had at one point. In general, free daemon summoning was met with dislike, because it was adding "free" points to your army each turn. Replenishing CP is somewhat like that, in that every turn you're getting additional resources to work with.

I suppose that if players started with an initial pool to allow pre-game strats, and then had CP/turn added to that, I might help to limit some 1st turn shenanigans, but then again some armies are built with those in mind. I can't think of any armies this would *benefit* while I can think of some lists this would invalidate... if they didn't get enough pre-game points.

The issue is right now as 8th edition is it's all about maximum damage turn 1 turn 2, so front loading all your CP into turn 1 alpha stike is more important than having a couple of pocket CP for turn 4/5.

mchammadad wrote:
2 CP is rather small as most useful/Viable stratagems are 2 CP+. Which isn't great when you only get 2 CP a turn.

Considering the fact that most armies go through their whole pool of CP in a turn or 2 (which on average is 8-10) having 6CP a turn when warlord is alive and 3CP a turn when he is dead isn't such a bad idea.

Most armies either:

a) use all CP for deployment purposes

b) Use all their CP on the first turn or

c) just use re-roll and anti charge because they didn't read/haven't gotten their codex stratagems.


I have had 4 dudes i fought have 14 CP list (2 Battalions,1specialist list) and they have gone through their whole pool of CP on the deployment and on the first turn. That is 14CP BEFORE THE FIRST BATTLE ROUND IS OVER

So i like to say that my 6CP a turn isn't actually such a bad idea. Because i know that people will still run out of CP, even with that amount a turn

6CP per turn is still insane. The whole point of CPs is that they are limited, you're supposed to plan around that limit. And if they used all their CP in the first turn then I imagine they planned for that and decided to front load anyway.
---------------
Now, since everyone seemed to completely skip the main idea of my suggestion I will reiterate it:

I propose that instead of counting up CP bonuses from each detachment, you only get to count one.

Example:
I run a Battalion+Vanguard. I can only choose one detachment, so I pick the battalion to get me +5CP.
I run triple Battalion. Again I can only pick one, so that's +5CP.

The value of each detachment can change to better suit this system:

Vanguard, spearhead etc...: 3CP
Battalion: 6 CP
Brigade: 12 CP

This can (and should) be mixed with CP generation. 1CP per turn standard, and +1CP per turn for the warlord.

-A player runs 2 Vanguard detachments, s/he gets 3 CP to start, and +2 CP each turn thereafter. Total: 13-17 CP
-A player runs 1 Battalion and 1 Spearhead, s/he gets 6 CP to start and + 2 CP each turn. Total: 16-20 CP
-A player runs 1 Brigade and 1 Battalion, s/he gets 12 CP to start with and +2CP each turn. Total: 22-26 CP

So what does this fix? Well, it invalidates CP batteries so no more 32 guard just for CP, and it also levels the CP field between elites and hordes. A grey knights army can now expect to get as much CP as Tau. Hordes can still try to nab a brigade, but those are pretty are to fill. Specialist armies like Deathwing won't get as much CP as more rounded armies but they will get a lot more then they do right now. A pure deathwing can only really get 5 CP per game now, whereas here they get 13-17. It also gives you starting CP to use in deployment, but it limits front loading since you don't start with all your CPs.

The issue is again strategums arn't costed comparably across factions eg.custodes gain a lot more from your proposal than marines.

Even Tau as they are currently design seam to need to ve able to spend way more CP that your proposal would allow them too.

I'm not saying that it's a bad suggestion, more that strategums costings probably need rebalanced.

Well, at least I got my idea across. Stratagems needing rebalance is somewhat of a separate issue. If all factions essentially gain access to similar CP, then stratagems are easier to balance.

Though, as for Tau needing more CP, this actually nets them more than their current amount. A triple battalion currently gives you 18 CP, which is roughly where the proposed single battalion puts you.

Personally I’d like to bring back strategy ratings, they could function the same as CP. but are only usable by that faction.

So guard as a baseline of 8

Marines 10

Orks d6+6

Etc.

If you bring marines an guard, only guard can use its points, only marines can use its points, special characters that add points can be used by its primary faction, so if say azrael adds 2, then both guard and marines can use those 2.

@ Dandelion: your idea of only letting the "biggest" cp generator count as a means of levelling CP still falls apart at places where Guard allying still allows a cheap CP generator, and few armies outside Guard can make a Batallion between 1500 and 2000 points.

And it is never going to be as even as equal CP for both players, coupled with appropriately costed strats. There is no better way to balance CP.

It doesn't fix things. It just rewards a different subset of builds. It doesn't make the game more even.

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Dandelion: your idea of only letting the "biggest" cp generator count as a means of levelling CP still falls apart at places where Guard allying still allows a cheap CP generator, and few armies outside Guard can make a Batallion between 1500 and 2000 points.

You mean Brigade, not Battalion, cause everyone can create a Battalion in 1500 points?

 alextroy wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Dandelion: your idea of only letting the "biggest" cp generator count as a means of levelling CP still falls apart at places where Guard allying still allows a cheap CP generator, and few armies outside Guard can make a Batallion between 1500 and 2000 points.

You mean Brigade, not Battalion, cause everyone can create a Battalion in 1500 points?

Not everyone can build an effective Brigade. Some codex's still suffer building battalions but thwy need CP.

Whichever the bigger one is... I get them backwards all the time.

It's easy to do with Guard if you, like me, enjoy taking lots of different units, or happen to have 3 sentinels because you thought they were awesome back in the day. It's tough to do with most other armies, in my experience, unless you're building specifically for the cheap units in each category.

I think it's been mentioned in other threads that there should be a starting pool of CP, maybe 10 for a 2000 point game, and detachments should cost command points instead of granting them.

 greatbigtree wrote:
@ Dandelion: your idea of only letting the "biggest" cp generator count as a means of levelling CP still falls apart at places where Guard allying still allows a cheap CP generator, and few armies outside Guard can make a Batallion between 1500 and 2000 points.

And it is never going to be as even as equal CP for both players, coupled with appropriately costed strats. There is no better way to balance CP.

It doesn't fix things. It just rewards a different subset of builds. It doesn't make the game more even.

The idea is that any faction can easily fit in one Battalion, but taking multiples has no cumulative effect. (battalions being the assumed default detachment) Running only special detachments is also a lot more viable (5 CP to now 13-17), and there is even a point to taking a full brigade instead of multiple battalions.

Also consider the relative differences in CP:
- Grey Knights can now get 16-20 CP off of one Battalion, as opposed to the 8-9 they're getting now. Effectively doubling their total CP
- Guard could get 22-26 up from 20-25. The difference is marginal. Guard Warlords are also generally easier to kill.
The difference in CP between the 2 factions goes from 12+ down to 6.

As you can see Elite armies gain so much more than Guard do. There's also the fact that Guard stratagems can get diluted by the number of units they have at play. They can only choose one of their generally mediocre (but cheap) units to get a stratagem, which reduces the value of their CP.

The other major change to consider is people taking fewer "tax" options to double/triple up detachments. Grey Knights are no longer required to cough up 2 HQs and 3 Troops just to keep up with Guard.

Lastly, allies no longer contribute to your CP and are only there for what the models themselves bring. So say goodbye to 32 man Guard CP farms. If people really wanted that sweet Brigade they would need to take 3 HQ, 6 troops, 3 Elites, 3 HS, and 3 FA.
Off the top of my head the minimum cost of a Guard CP farm goes from 180 pts to somewhere around 650 pts (and that's special weapons teams without special weapons). That's considerably more investment for a bunch of lasguns and some mortars.

Consider the relative difference in CP if both players got the same number of CP based on the number of points played.

GK players would have 20 CP, while the Guard player had only 20 CP. This would serve to help the GK player, while mildly hindering the Guard player. The difference goes from potentially non-zero, to zero.

And both players could play whatever their heart desires. That's my point. All of these attempts to balance CP based on detachment restrictions are all attempting to reduce the gulf between armies that can easily fill large detachments, and those that can't. Why not take that to the logical conclusion? Just give both players equal CP and be done with it.

So you would propose we just ditch detachments completely and not replace them with anything? Can't say I'm fond of that.

We had that last edition. And apart from the glaringly crazy bonuses some formation detachments got, it was a pretty neat idea to make people able to take what they wanted.

Also, i find it funny how people though unbound in last edition was crazy overpowered, when a battle forged formation army would just laugh at how weak the unbound list was