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Flamephoenix182 wrote:
The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Ork players play a race that don't have a gender. In fact, when you kinda think of it we're all masculine females because we do give borth to more Orks. So really I couldn't care less but it would honestly piss me off if GW brought out new female space marine models right now... there are so many other factions begging for models and marines (who are getting a full army update anyway) don't need any more! Hell, give IG female heads in a booster pack for Goro sake! Or give us that Buggy we want! Or let the sisters of battle come out and just make them large and say "hey, they're basically space marines now!" All of this would mean everyone gets the models they want but just giving marines new female models would satisfy such a small minority of players it would seriously upset the rest of us. Maybe in 5 years when we all get what we wnat marines can have them. XD

The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare. The genetic modification is already strenuous enough on the body. To try it on a woman with this lore precedent would be a waste of resources.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

They are literally not space marines at all.
Not the same armor, not the same genetic changes, not the same organization, not the same mentality.
The only thing they have in common in they use the same bolters...

Their lore is a little different.

They are in female power armor with boob armor that gets the exact same 3+ save as power armor. Instead of genetic enhancements they have super faith, they are organized about the same - 5-10 man squads.
They use basically the same vehicals (with some different weapons). Not even all space marine chapters have the same organization or mentality. Some are vampires, some are ware-wolves, sisters are just space marine space nuns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare. The genetic modification is already strenuous enough on the body. To try it on a woman with this lore precedent would be a waste of resources.

Well this argument is super relevant. We should just stick to the fact that there are already female space marines. Adept Soriatas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Ork players play a race that don't have a gender. In fact, when you kinda think of it we're all masculine females because we do give borth to more Orks. So really I couldn't care less but it would honestly piss me off if GW brought out new female space marine models right now... there are so many other factions begging for models and marines (who are getting a full army update anyway) don't need any more! Hell, give IG female heads in a booster pack for Goro sake! Or give us that Buggy we want! Or let the sisters of battle come out and just make them large and say "hey, they're basically space marines now!" All of this would mean everyone gets the models they want but just giving marines new female models would satisfy such a small minority of players it would seriously upset the rest of us. Maybe in 5 years when we all get what we wnat marines can have them. XD

Orks are Fungus - they are A sexual.

Adeptus Soriatas arnt space marines, they dont have the gene seed gland, big difference.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

They are literally not space marines at all.
Not the same armor, not the same genetic changes, not the same organization, not the same mentality.
The only thing they have in common in they use the same bolters...

Their lore is a little different.

They are in female power armor with boob armor that gets the exact same 3+ save as power armor. Instead of genetic enhancements they have super faith, they are organized about the same - 5-10 man squads.
They use basically the same vehicals (with some different weapons). Not even all space marine chapters have the same organization or mentality. Some are vampires, some are ware-wolves, sisters are just space marine space nuns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare. The genetic modification is already strenuous enough on the body. To try it on a woman with this lore precedent would be a waste of resources.

Well this argument is super relevant. We should just stick to the fact that there are already female space marines. Adept Soriatas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Ork players play a race that don't have a gender. In fact, when you kinda think of it we're all masculine females because we do give borth to more Orks. So really I couldn't care less but it would honestly piss me off if GW brought out new female space marine models right now... there are so many other factions begging for models and marines (who are getting a full army update anyway) don't need any more! Hell, give IG female heads in a booster pack for Goro sake! Or give us that Buggy we want! Or let the sisters of battle come out and just make them large and say "hey, they're basically space marines now!" All of this would mean everyone gets the models they want but just giving marines new female models would satisfy such a small minority of players it would seriously upset the rest of us. Maybe in 5 years when we all get what we wnat marines can have them. XD

Orks are Fungus - they are A sexual.

Honestly, I say this a lot, why would you even want female space marines when Sisters of Battle exist? They're seriously awesome... and no joke. When the new models come out I will buy buying them (depending on price) because I love the idea of such strong soldiers who don't need all that marine cheating stuff.

And Orks are what ever gender they want to be! I remember when we used to get outninto the desert and mother our young in the old lore...

You couldn’t tell Phasma was a woman until she opened her mouth - and that could have been easily dubbed if the director wanted.

I’ve stopped caring whether we get female space marine models or not, and GW can take it’s take on the lore and shove it. There’s plenty of headswap options for models and I can always use the cursed 13th founding to state that was why my marine chapter is all female.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

They are literally not space marines at all.
Not the same armor, not the same genetic changes, not the same organization, not the same mentality.
The only thing they have in common in they use the same bolters...

Their lore is a little different.

They are in female power armor with boob armor that gets the exact same 3+ save as power armor. Instead of genetic enhancements they have super faith, they are organized about the same - 5-10 man squads.
They use basically the same vehicals (with some different weapons). Not even all space marine chapters have the same organization or mentality. Some are vampires, some are ware-wolves, sisters are just space marine space nuns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare. The genetic modification is already strenuous enough on the body. To try it on a woman with this lore precedent would be a waste of resources.

Well this argument is super relevant. We should just stick to the fact that there are already female space marines. Adept Soriatas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Ork players play a race that don't have a gender. In fact, when you kinda think of it we're all masculine females because we do give borth to more Orks. So really I couldn't care less but it would honestly piss me off if GW brought out new female space marine models right now... there are so many other factions begging for models and marines (who are getting a full army update anyway) don't need any more! Hell, give IG female heads in a booster pack for Goro sake! Or give us that Buggy we want! Or let the sisters of battle come out and just make them large and say "hey, they're basically space marines now!" All of this would mean everyone gets the models they want but just giving marines new female models would satisfy such a small minority of players it would seriously upset the rest of us. Maybe in 5 years when we all get what we wnat marines can have them. XD

Orks are Fungus - they are A sexual.

Honestly, I say this a lot, why would you even want female space marines when Sisters of Battle exist? They're seriously awesome... and no joke. When the new models come out I will buy buying them (depending on price) because I love the idea of such strong soldiers who don't need all that marine cheating stuff.

And Orks are what ever gender they want to be! I remember when we used to get outninto the desert and mother our young in the old lore...

Honestly this, i dont understand the want and or need for a female space marine as it will jsut pull away from the already struggling SoB and SoS forces.

 Crimson wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

I wonder if space marines where a relatively minor faction in 40k instead of the poster child of the setting, would this even be an issue?

That is definitely a big part of the issue. You argue that it is equality that there is one all male faction (Marines) and one all female faction (the Sisters) but that really is not the case as there are like five thousand variant marine armies and the fluff is like 90% about them. Which really is a problem even outside the gender issue...

It's not equality and nothing about 40k is equal except that all lives are basically expendable in the IoM. Sisters have the fluff of being an all female organization just as howling banshees are all female. Changing that is just taking away that identity without really adding anything of substance to those groups. Same for Space Marines due to the established fluff states it needs to be a male in order to be able to undergo the Space Marine transformation process. It has nothing to do with wanting a boys only club (that's 8th edition Orks currently :p ) but just that it doesn't feel worthwhile to change the fluff to check off some equality boxes. But in all honestly the changes to having primaris marines bothers me more than if they said they figured out a way to make female marines. At least with female marines it doesn't invalidate all the existing models or most narratives where as primaris tends to step on everything established to try and sell newer models.

Orks have sexuality in a sense that they are kinda like walking mushrooms for the orkoid fungus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating_in_fungi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection_in_fungi

Yeah I know, I know, it's sacrelage to post links to wikipedia, but its refence section give us a nice body of works to study to further our knowledge on the important field of Ork sexuality.

From an in-universe point of view, the given reason is, as has been stated, the fact that SM are based of Primarch DNA, which is in turn based of the Emperor's DNA. Fundamentally, this means that the entirety of the SM 'Upgrade' is encoded at a the level of chromosomes - of which females are incompatible with at least 50% of said implanted DNA, being as it's based off a male DNA sample. Hence, if the genome is implanted into a female, not only will 50% of the intended genetic information be unable to be accessed (Because of the way the chromosomes link together to form DNA, 95% of the Y Chromosome is unable to recombine with an X chromosome), but it may also lead to severe damage to the existing DNA - resulting in genetic mutation and severe health problems.

So, there is a bit of a reason behind it.

As for Cawl being able to 'invent' Primaris marines - he did not. Primaris marines are not the result of 'new' technology. They are simply a tweaked form of the Emperor's original creation, with the difference that the geneseed has been optimised for an exaggeration in traits (Increased intellect, strength, speed etc.). Even the addition of the 3 new organs is a relatively simple splice into existing DNA - things that we can do even today on a primitive level. What Cawl's creation cannot do, is radically alter the way in which human DNA reacts with each other (Aforementioned chromosome thing). And, despite being presented as being 'new' creations - it is still fundamentally derived from the Emperor's original work. Yes, it 'improves' upon it - but it does not supersede it. I'm not even going to touch on how gene-seed is also psychic in nature, and is attuned to the Emperor's psychic signal. That may also have a hand in things.

From an out of universe stance:

There is no need for female marines. Unfortunately, IMHO, this is the result of the ridiculous need to forcibly insert 'equality' into every conceivable situation, simple to satisfy ever-changing external social demands. The Universe of Warhammer 40k already has women in numerous positions of power and authority, with many of them having interesting characterisations. There are female Planetary Governors, Regimental Commanders, Mechanicus Magos, Inquisitors, Arbites Commanders, Navy Captains, Navigators, Psykers etc. etc. etc. These are all massive and serious roles, and positions in which women are equally as 'plausible/able' to undertake as male characters. If anything, what we need is not more women characters or special snowflake all-female units, but a better representation and fleshing out of those already present - because they are a huge aspect of the setting (In most regards, the fault lies with the overwhelming focus on SM themed novels. Even one new IG novel series could rectify the problem somewhat and show how the rest of the IoM is rather more balanced).

In terms of 'needing' FSM - there is no need, because that niche is already filled by the Sisters of Battle and the Sisters of Silence, two exclusively female units. Do we hear anybody crying out that there needs to be male Sisters of Battle, because some men are also really fervent worshippers? No, because we accept that there is a plausible reason not to do so in the setting (No Men at Arms for the Ecclesiarchy) What about the Sisters of Silence? There are male blanks - Ferik Jurgen (Ibram Gaunt's aide) was one. So why don't we fluff-hammer some males into the Sisters of Silence. Because again, there is no need. We appreciate that it's stated that most blanks are female for some reason. We don't need the reason why this is so, we just accept it as part of the setting and move on.

Basically, SMs are based off the Knightly Orders of the Crusades - who were all male. SoB's are based of the Nun Orders - who were all female. There doesn't need to be any mixing of the two. Both have power armour, bolters, faith. The only thing SoB don't have is geneseed - but they happen to turn into living-fething-saints if they pray/fight hard enough. SM don't get that.

Wey, that's my two bob anyhow

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Adeptus Soriatas arnt space marines, they dont have the gene seed gland, big difference.

Geen seed is just replaced by super faith.

You didn't address why we would NEED female marines though. Because you could make it "work" isn't a valid reason to do it (just as "we want to sell new miniatures" wasn't a good reason to create Primaris marines imho but that's not the debate). I would be interested to know why marines SHOULD have women in their ranks other than "warrior women are cool" since we can have (and we already have) women in any other army (well... not necron, tyranids etc, ok).
Marines being the most known figure of 40k doesn't mean they have to include women characters.
And it doesn't make sense anyway since part of the imagery for marines IS this all male thing as while they are more or less secular, they're based on a monastic way of life and monastic communities were more often than not restricted to a single sex afaik. So, I wouldn't really agree with adding female into male chapters. I wouldn't be bothered if it happened though, as long as the minis are great and don't distract from the original imagery (which would probably mean you would barely be able to tell the mini represent a female anyway).
You could probably create a new legion with females only and keep the monastic aspect though. But you are entering sister of battle territory as they are based on the same imagery, only with the religious aspect turned to eleven.
And if the reason is "we need powerful women figures" we have some. We even have female inquisitors giving orders to these marines sometimes. Sure, we could have more but maybe not in this particular army.

If this happens, can we finally get some male eldar???

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

They are literally not space marines at all.
Not the same armor, not the same genetic changes, not the same organization, not the same mentality.
The only thing they have in common in they use the same bolters...

Their lore is a little different.

They are in female power armor with boob armor that gets the exact same 3+ save as power armor. Instead of genetic enhancements they have super faith, they are organized about the same - 5-10 man squads.
They use basically the same vehicals (with some different weapons). Not even all space marine chapters have the same organization or mentality. Some are vampires, some are ware-wolves, sisters are just space marine space nuns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare. The genetic modification is already strenuous enough on the body. To try it on a woman with this lore precedent would be a waste of resources.

Well this argument is super relevant. We should just stick to the fact that there are already female space marines. Adept Soriatas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Ork players play a race that don't have a gender. In fact, when you kinda think of it we're all masculine females because we do give borth to more Orks. So really I couldn't care less but it would honestly piss me off if GW brought out new female space marine models right now... there are so many other factions begging for models and marines (who are getting a full army update anyway) don't need any more! Hell, give IG female heads in a booster pack for Goro sake! Or give us that Buggy we want! Or let the sisters of battle come out and just make them large and say "hey, they're basically space marines now!" All of this would mean everyone gets the models they want but just giving marines new female models would satisfy such a small minority of players it would seriously upset the rest of us. Maybe in 5 years when we all get what we wnat marines can have them. XD

Orks are Fungus - they are A sexual.

Honestly, I say this a lot, why would you even want female space marines when Sisters of Battle exist? They're seriously awesome... and no joke. When the new models come out I will buy buying them (depending on price) because I love the idea of such strong soldiers who don't need all that marine cheating stuff.

And Orks are what ever gender they want to be! I remember when we used to get outninto the desert and mother our young in the old lore...

Honestly this, i dont understand the want and or need for a female space marine as it will jsut pull away from the already struggling SoB and SoS forces.

That should be solved by SOB's rerelease and honestly SOS are always going to struggle as they're one of the factions GW added for monies.

Female space marines would be like male sororitas. Everyone can model their army like they want, I have no objections for that.

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare.

If by warfare you mean hand to hand combat while basically naked. Power armor and laser rifles renders that pretty irrelevant. Males were used in warfare because they're more expendable. If half your males die in battle, your replacement rate doesn't really change - one guy is fully capable of reproducing with dozens of women in the time for a single pregnancy cycle. If half your women die, you've cut your replacement rate in half.

One of the big drivers of warfare has always been about getting rid of surplus males, because women died in childbirth and that left you with surplus men without mates and that causes trouble. Far better you go kill some other tribe and take their women, you deal with the problem on both ends (fewer surplus males on your tribe, and/or more available females).

Power armor doesn't solve this issue, though arguably in 40k artificial womb technology certainly could. Also, tweaking human genetics to put women on rough physical par with men should be basically trivial on the time scales 40k deals with. There are tons of species where the female is far superior in terms of combat ability.

That said, I'm not arguing for female space marines, it's just that the logic that "Men are bigger/stronger" isn't compelling given the available military and genetic technology. Genetically engineering female supersoldiers would actually be easier (no dealing with the Y chromosome at all, less work).

Personally, I assume that the Emperor ran on old school logic - turn surplus men (especially the undesirable criminal elements) into brainwashed, expendable supersoldiers, leaving your female population to reproductive duties that don't require precious technological resources, just plain old biology. Earth had been ravaged by years of conflict at that point, so shoring up Terra's populace was probably relevant given how many people he was going to drag off to the crusade (not just Space Marines, lots and lots of regular human soldiers too).

Cawl making female space marines...why bother? Cawl was reinventing the wheel, but it was still a wheel. It was also a process meant to be applied to improve normal space marines as well. Bothering to include women in the design was entirely unwarranted.

 Vankraken wrote:
just as howling banshees are all female

I digress a bit but they aren't actually. Males are allowed as long as they can "keep up" and perform as well as the females iirc.

 Draco wrote:
Female space marines would be like male sororitas. Everyone can model their army like they want, I have no objections for that.

ADEPTUS SORORITOS!!!

 John Prins wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare.

If by warfare you mean hand to hand combat while basically naked. Power armor and laser rifles renders that pretty irrelevant. Males were used in warfare because they're more expendable. If half your males die in battle, your replacement rate doesn't really change - one guy is fully capable of reproducing with dozens of women in the time for a single pregnancy cycle. If half your women die, you've cut your replacement rate in half.

One of the big drivers of warfare has always been about getting rid of surplus males, because women died in childbirth and that left you with surplus men without mates and that causes trouble. Far better you go kill some other tribe and take their women, you deal with the problem on both ends (fewer surplus males on your tribe, and/or more available females).

Power armor doesn't solve this issue, though arguably in 40k artificial womb technology certainly could. Also, tweaking human genetics to put women on rough physical par with men should be basically trivial on the time scales 40k deals with. There are tons of species where the female is far superior in terms of combat ability.

That said, I'm not arguing for female space marines, it's just that the logic that "Men are bigger/stronger" isn't compelling given the available military and genetic technology. Genetically engineering female supersoldiers would actually be easier (no dealing with the Y chromosome at all, less work).

Personally, I assume that the Emperor ran on old school logic - turn surplus men (especially the undesirable criminal elements) into brainwashed, expendable supersoldiers, leaving your female population to reproductive duties that don't require precious technological resources, just plain old biology. Earth had been ravaged by years of conflict at that point, so shoring up Terra's populace was probably relevant given how many people he was going to drag off to the crusade (not just Space Marines, lots and lots of regular human soldiers too).

Cawl making female space marines...why bother? Cawl was reinventing the wheel, but it was still a wheel. It was also a process meant to be applied to improve normal space marines as well. Bothering to include women in the design was entirely unwarranted.

Bigger and stronger and more likely to survive the process of becoming a marine. Which if I recall correctly - only 1-100 men survive the process.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It doesn’t change the fluff if Cawl invents something new with the Primaris. That’s advancing the story.

They aren’t just the most common army, Marines are Warhammer 40K.

No I quote examples with the Space Wolves and compare it to Vikings. That’s an argument.

The fact you’ve assumed I am arguing from a position of encouraging diversity means you haven’t read my post.

Quite a few people weren't happy with how the Primaris were introduced either.

Also the Space Wolves Viking is.. Not so much an argument given that your hypothesis is "They won't change because they are vikings and vikings have the appeal of Warrior Maidens so nothing would really change about the core viking character". I mean sure, they might not change in that fashion. But it's a major change fluffwise as a Space Marine faction. And sure.. We could, but why though? Aside from "Space Marines are popular, add females through them"

Yeah im still booty bothered by cawl marry sue.

ONCE AGAIN, just because you don't like a powerful character, it doesn't make them a Mary Sue. Learn your terms before throwing them all around nillywilly.

always find it so strange when this topic comes up, it would be like me making a post "we want female gandalfs and an entire male eldar line, and identifiabley male necrons with long hair because i have long hair!!!

each race since the 90s has expanded its lore and backstory you can just go *slam gender here*

are space marines even men? do they even have gender? most are hairless, eunuchs, they are simply muscle and genetic modification, the term battle brothers is simply a metaphor as they are no longer human, they wouldnt need breasts, or makeup, or specific bone structures or anything that makes you put down your bolter and go hey... what gender are you, and since its based on our own history.. men are the war race, hence why the alien races and orders differ (eldar, adeptus)

also, if you take both the men and women from planets you conquer.... planets run by children and the infrim??

buy alternate heads they are plenty of female websites, dont let GW re release the entire line in female version, rather than focusing on armies that actually need releases and updates (orks, chaos, imperial guard, adeptus, both eldars)

Space Marines does not come with a gender, they are miniatures made of styrene plastic. If you want them to be female, then they are female. If you want them to be shemale then that is what they are. Its not like you can inspect their styrene genitals anyway.

pismakron wrote:
If you want them to be shemale then that is what they are. Its not like you can inspect their styrene genitals anyway.

And that, boys and girls, is how GW came up with the idea for Slaanesh Marines.

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It doesn’t change the fluff if Cawl invents something new with the Primaris. That’s advancing the story.

They aren’t just the most common army, Marines are Warhammer 40K.

No I quote examples with the Space Wolves and compare it to Vikings. That’s an argument.

The fact you’ve assumed I am arguing from a position of encouraging diversity means you haven’t read my post.

Quite a few people weren't happy with how the Primaris were introduced either.

Also the Space Wolves Viking is.. Not so much an argument given that your hypothesis is "They won't change because they are vikings and vikings have the appeal of Warrior Maidens so nothing would really change about the core viking character". I mean sure, they might not change in that fashion. But it's a major change fluffwise as a Space Marine faction. And sure.. We could, but why though? Aside from "Space Marines are popular, add females through them"

Yeah im still booty bothered by cawl marry sue.

ONCE AGAIN, just because you don't like a powerful character, it doesn't make them a Mary Sue. Learn your terms before throwing them all around nillywilly.

Powerful is one thing,
Going against the emperors decree for screwing with genetics
Pulling grav tech outta his rear despite lore wise it being lost since the heresy
Fixing the defects in the gene seed
Making a super suit for guliman
Sat on all this tech and was a relative literally who and no one questioned it.
able to hide this all from the inquisition for 10k years despite them being able to know if a nurgling farts a system away

OTHER THEN THAT, yeah i guess he is not a marry sue.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
The male body is superior to the female body in most all regards useful for warfare.

If by warfare you mean hand to hand combat while basically naked. Power armor and laser rifles renders that pretty irrelevant. Males were used in warfare because they're more expendable. If half your males die in battle, your replacement rate doesn't really change - one guy is fully capable of reproducing with dozens of women in the time for a single pregnancy cycle. If half your women die, you've cut your replacement rate in half.

One of the big drivers of warfare has always been about getting rid of surplus males, because women died in childbirth and that left you with surplus men without mates and that causes trouble. Far better you go kill some other tribe and take their women, you deal with the problem on both ends (fewer surplus males on your tribe, and/or more available females).

Power armor doesn't solve this issue, though arguably in 40k artificial womb technology certainly could. Also, tweaking human genetics to put women on rough physical par with men should be basically trivial on the time scales 40k deals with. There are tons of species where the female is far superior in terms of combat ability.

That said, I'm not arguing for female space marines, it's just that the logic that "Men are bigger/stronger" isn't compelling given the available military and genetic technology. Genetically engineering female supersoldiers would actually be easier (no dealing with the Y chromosome at all, less work).

Personally, I assume that the Emperor ran on old school logic - turn surplus men (especially the undesirable criminal elements) into brainwashed, expendable supersoldiers, leaving your female population to reproductive duties that don't require precious technological resources, just plain old biology. Earth had been ravaged by years of conflict at that point, so shoring up Terra's populace was probably relevant given how many people he was going to drag off to the crusade (not just Space Marines, lots and lots of regular human soldiers too).

Cawl making female space marines...why bother? Cawl was reinventing the wheel, but it was still a wheel. It was also a process meant to be applied to improve normal space marines as well. Bothering to include women in the design was entirely unwarranted.

Bigger and stronger and more likely to survive the process of becoming a marine. Which if I recall correctly - only 1-100 men survive the process.

Space Marine training includes things like "go and fight trolls, trek miles through a Death World environment and fight fire breathing salamanders". I think that inflicts casualties more than anything and a man gets eaten just as easily as a woman no?

There are a few issues I have with pushing female marines:
- MOAR MEHRINE KITS, meanwhile Guard sit there with 15-20 year old kits.
- On a biological level hormones are the only thing that really change gender, in the womb all babies/fetuses go through a phase where they have both male and female organs, it is only with the introduction of male/female hormones that fetuses differentiate between male and female. So, women exposed to increased amounts of testosterone/steroids/etc... start to build very masculine features. Squarer jaw, denser/larger bones/muscles etc... And this is because the stereotypical buff dude look is what the body looks like at peak strength. So if a woman were to reach absolute human peak strength, such as a marine, she would look more masculine than most men.
- Marines being a brotherhood is a huge draw to many players, including myself. Changing this would reduce the appeal of marines for many players, just look at the number of people against the change. Fundamentally they just don't want female marines, and they use fluff arguments to defend their point because that's what matters to them. Why should your desire to include female marines trump another player's desire to keep them all male?

Dandelion wrote:
There are a few issues I have with pushing female marines:
- MOAR MEHRINE KITS, meanwhile Guard sit there with 15-20 year old kits.
- On a biological level hormones are the only thing that really change gender, in the womb all babies/fetuses go through a phase where they have both male and female organs, it is only with the introduction of male/female hormones that fetuses differentiate between male and female. So, women exposed to increased amounts of testosterone/steroids/etc... start to build very masculine features. Squarer jaw, denser/larger bones/muscles etc... And this is because the stereotypical buff dude look is what the body looks like at peak strength. So if a woman were to reach absolute human peak strength, such as a marine, she would look more masculine than most men.
- Marines being a brotherhood is a huge draw to many players, including myself. Changing this would reduce the appeal of marines for many players, just look at the number of people against the change. Fundamentally they just don't want female marines, and they use fluff arguments to defend their point because that's what matters to them. Why should your desire to include female marines trump another player's desire to keep them all male?

It would be like saying all college fraternities now must take girls. Kinda defeats the point of calling them a fraternity

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Adeptus Soriatas arnt space marines, they dont have the gene seed gland, big difference.

Plus their stat line is drastically inferior - Strength 3, Toughness 3 (a big one), Initiative 3 back when Initiative was a stat. 1 Wound where eventually all Space Marines will get base Wounds of 2 just like Primaris.

Sisters are LITERALLY just Guardsmen with better equipment. NOT Space Marines.

phydaux wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Adeptus Soriatas arnt space marines, they dont have the gene seed gland, big difference.

Plus their stat line is drastically inferior - Strength 3, Toughness 3 (a big one), Initiative 3 back when Initiative was a stat. 1 Wound where eventually all Space Marines will get base Wounds of 2 just like Primaris.

Sisters are LITERALLY just Guardsmen with better equipment. NOT Space Marines.

And know how to actually shoot.

I think this is fine.