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 Overread wrote:
But this isn't a young-adults series?

Also surely its best to save at least the ire and hate for the content until its, you know, actually published and we know what's inside

just read any of the Star Wars Adventures in wild space books, it's going to be the same thing just with the serial numbers filled off and replaced with 40k ones

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Besides, you can ignore the book the same way you ignore the Uktramarines movie.

But I can't do that! Forever, some Ultramarines went on their first mission in full power armor, and all that jazz .

Do we know what these books are going to be? Novels? Comics? The Warhammer Adventures website doesn't seem to answer that.

Novels

Thanks. I figured they might have a graphic element because of the art style being so different, especially on something as established as the Marine.

I wanted to comment when this first started making the rounds but I had yet to formulate a proper perspective. Now that I have...

A long time ago, a little boy played with trains, he liked trains and collected model trains and made scenery for them but the hobby all but died as he got older. Well, at all the hobby gatherings and clubs there were a bunch of old men and maybe one or two young folk.

My point is, we need young blood. I am over forty. I've played GW products since they've been around. But without pulling in the younger audience, wargaming will end up like model trains. I started wargamming in 6th grade. These days we have to compete with the instant gratification of video games.
Lets be real, wargamming requires a very special blend of an artistic and technical mind.

The books are not for me so it is largely irrelevant what they say or what they are about. If they bring in young people to the hobby then they are fine with me.

I think Space marines and Elves have better "pull" then trains already with younger audiences

dyndraig wrote:
I think Space marines and Elves have better "pull" then trains already with younger audiences

Don't tell my daughter that. She loves trains. Back in the day trains had huge pull but the hobby "aged" itself almost out of existing.

 Grot 6 wrote:
, it is just more of the same that is being pushed out there for "Young Adults" which isn't saying much...

..."Young Adults" need this crappy book series about as much as they do another hole in their heads. What is out there already should be enough for you to tell your kids to go read Deathwatch, or The Last Chancers, or Gaunt's Ghosts. Making kids Mary Sue's is just pandering to a nonexistent fanbase, and honestly young teens don't take to this sort of thought. They want good stories that can be relatable, as they learn about something new.

 Overread wrote:
But this isn't a young-adults series?

Also surely its best to save at least the ire and hate for the content until its, you know, actually published and we know what's inside

I feel I need to make a correction, because you clearly do not understand the genres. Games Workshop has not claimed that they're making a Young Adult series (because they aren't).

These books are Middle Grade. That is the genre where protagonists are kids (10-13 seems right) and good and evil are clearly defined.

Young Adult is a different genre. Young Adult readers are primarily teenage girls and adult women (teenage boys aren't targeted, and often have silly uninformed attitudes about the genre).

YA features teenager characters who tend to deal with grey morality and often feature much darker themes. Of course that varies quite a lot (just like most genres) but YA novels can get VERY dark and gritty.

Basically what I want to say is that I've read Young Adult books that are grittier and as dark or darker than existing 40k fiction. If you are interested, I can make some recommendations.



But none of that matters, because thes books they've told us about are all Middle Grade.

dyndraig wrote:
I think Space marines and Elves have better "pull" then trains already with younger audiences

Yup.

On the one hand I have trains, on the other I have the Imperium of man stomping aliens in the face with a mix of regular dudes with laser guns and super armoured dudes with giant, machine guns that basically shoot grenades. It's not even a contest for most kids/adolescents. GW and the wider hobby won't have the same proble the trains did.

In light of Odinson's last post I'll use a personal anecdote and my experience of the 11 and 12 year olds I taught again to say that complex, dark topics and narratives were everywhere in the fiction I and they read even though we were 10 -15 years apart in age. Anyone read the Haunting of Alaizabel Cray by Chris Wooding or The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman? I think 8 - 12 is actually too old a demographic for these new books, 5 - 8 is probably more appropriate given what (admittedly little) informatio we have so far.

I find the idea a bit silly. I don't think it will be successful at all. In fact, I highly doubt we'll see the target age group being the primary readers of this material. It's going to be a sweatier, neckbeardier, more niche My Little Pony style appeal, and I think that's funny.

Not stupid. Not 'bad'. No tirade about it. I just think the idea is a bit silly, that's all.

Perhaps in a couple of years you'll be able to buy them for a buck so a store can clear them out and use the shelf space. Or you'll see them donated to libraries.

This is not me insulting anyone, this is me expressing doubt about how good of an idea this is.

The thing I hate is that most of the 'outrage' about this isn't really outrage, it's just people making jokes about the sheer silliness of it. And people were acting like all the local GW is under siege by a rioting mob of grognards.

You talk about GW not at risk of aging out but when was the last time in the US that a town of 30k folks had WHFB and 40k battles at the local community center rec room at least once a month and often twice. They were like mini tournaments in the era when battles could take several days if large and all day if small. Often those days wargame weekends were a two or three day event.

Compound that with how many middle School age kids do you see playing AoS and Age of 8th 40k?

Then again the game did used to be something I could afford on a limited allowance.

Just food for thought. I doubt we have many, if any, minors on this board.

meatybtz wrote:
You talk about GW not at risk of aging out but when was the last time in the US that a town of 30k folks had WHFB and 40k battles at the local community center rec room at least once a month and often twice. They were like mini tournaments in the era when battles could take several days if large and all day if small. Often those days wargame weekends were a two or three day event.

Well, a lot of people seem to think 40k is like some kind of weird religion and if we don't go out and tell the word of the Emperor, our flock will dwindle and die.

What's going to sell 40k and generate interest isn't a watered-down kid-friendly version of the books. It's gonna take actual people showing younger players the ropes of the game, keeping the FLGS pretty family-friendly and drama-free, and overall being willing to actually teach people how to play the game instead of finding the new guy and crushing his starter box army on the table before the glue even dries and telling him he needs a better army.

I'm never one to go on about the cliche' things that certain people claim happens all the time to make our communities 'toxic', because the truth is there's a lot more issues that are far more persistent over the decades I've been involved with the hobby.

For perspective, the smell and general rude attitude of a comics & games shop I went into with my mom when I was a young kid was so bad, I was forbidden to take part in those games for years. And even when I was allowed to as I got older, she forbid me to go to that exact shop.

Just my two cents. They can print a billion kiddie-books and make Fisher Price Land Raiders forever, but 40k ain't gonna get sold on that if we don't deal with our own clusters of gamers and make it more appealing.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
, it is just more of the same that is being pushed out there for "Young Adults" which isn't saying much...

..."Young Adults" need this crappy book series about as much as they do another hole in their heads. What is out there already should be enough for you to tell your kids to go read Deathwatch, or The Last Chancers, or Gaunt's Ghosts. Making kids Mary Sue's is just pandering to a nonexistent fanbase, and honestly young teens don't take to this sort of thought. They want good stories that can be relatable, as they learn about something new.

 Overread wrote:
But this isn't a young-adults series?

Also surely its best to save at least the ire and hate for the content until its, you know, actually published and we know what's inside

I feel I need to make a correction, because you clearly do not understand the genres. Games Workshop has not claimed that they're making a Young Adult series (because they aren't).

These books are Middle Grade. That is the genre where protagonists are kids (10-13 seems right) and good and evil are clearly defined.

Young Adult is a different genre. Young Adult readers are primarily teenage girls and adult women (teenage boys aren't targeted, and often have silly uninformed attitudes about the genre).

YA features teenager characters who tend to deal with grey morality and often feature much darker themes. Of course that varies quite a lot (just like most genres) but YA novels can get VERY dark and gritty.

Basically what I want to say is that I've read Young Adult books that are grittier and as dark or darker than existing 40k fiction. If you are interested, I can make some recommendations.



But none of that matters, because thes books they've told us about are all Middle Grade.

Splitting hairs about the genre is fine. I stand by what I said. Is there any info on the minis of the kids?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Basically what I want to say is that I've read Young Adult books that are grittier and as dark or darker than existing 40k fiction. If you are interested, I can make some recommendations.

Would Joe Abercrombie's Shattered Sea trilogy be on the list? I'd recommend those to anyone, regardless of age, and they're proof positive that you can combine 'grimdark' and YA and have it work perfectly.

I do have misgivings about the 40K version of Warhammer Adventures, though. My problem with the idea is more or less the opposite of what most people seem to be worried about. I'm not concerned about it being insufficiently grimdark or too happy/kiddified. I'm worried that some well-meaning, liberal-minded, probably-American-but-maybe-British parents are going to buy these books for their kids, then find out what the 'real' 40K setting is like and go ape-gak over GW spoonfeeding their little darling fascist propaganda (as they would see it).

I think we tend to overlook some of the potentially problematic bits of 40K fluff, because obviously we know it's meant somewhat satirically. We know that we're not intended to view the Imperium as 'good'. It's a horrible crapsack universe in which totalitarianism, torture and genocide are the price of survival. But someone new to the setting doesn't necessarily know that. I think a lot of parents unfamiliar with 40K would be pretty upset if they discovered the books they just bought for their 8-year-old are set in a universe where the 'good guy' faction are outright genocidal fascists. Even if nothing obviously fascistic or genocidal actually happens in those particular books.

There are a lot of ideas central to 40K that are the exact opposite of the Western small-'l'-liberal values most parents expect books marketed towards their kids to espouse. I think most parents would want their 8-year-old's reading material to be pushing ideas like "Don't bully people who are different from you" or "Don't judge people by how they look" or "Respect authority, but don't be afraid to question things that seem unfair". But can you honestly imagine any of those in a 40K story? Don't you think most parents might have a problem with exposing their young children to a setting where the lessons are "Anyone who looks different is a dangerous mutant and you should kill them", or "Anyone who questions the authorities is a heretic who should be burned alive"?

AoS is much more benign in this regard. I think the AoS version of Warhammer Adventures is a great idea. But I think GW is setting themselves up for a whole heap of PR nightmare if they're going to pretend that 40K is just fine for 8-year-olds. I think they will find that most parents who are not 40K fans themselves (and therefore do not necessarily recognise the satirical elements) will strongly disagree with them.

EDIT: Because the swear filter does not work very well...

Think you're overstating that issue to be honest.

1) They won't be exposing their young kids to the 40k setting in its fullness, that doesn't seem to be what the Adventure books are about at all.

2) Most parents who might care would do some research and I don't underestimate them enough to think they wouldn't be able to get that there is good guys/bad guys distinction in 'full' 40k and that that's the point. They can make a judgement call as to whether they think their kid is ready to step up from Adventures to the real thing. It's the same as film viewing in the home in that respect, conscientious parents may let their kid watch films of a rating exceeding their age on a case by case basis.


3) Lots of parents are too busy to pay much attention to what their kids are up to or (sadly) don't care. The number of kids I taught who basically described their home life as what could generously be termed benign neglect was staggering and this was in pretty well heeled areas albeit with some rougher elements.

There are some hand-wringing ninnies out there, but they're not that numerous and they'd find a way to be upset about anything. I can't see any significant media picking up and running with any story where a well established, if niche, miniatures company is accused of suddenly pushing fascist propaganda. Admittedly I speak from a UK perspective and while we have the Guardian doing their best to ape some of the worst aspects of modern US so-called 'liberals', most of our papers are actually right or centre right, so wouldn't be inclined to make a big deal out of it. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Daily Mail et al ran front pages in full support!

Eh I honestly think a lot of the grim-dark is overblown by fans who have let their imaginations run wild. I'd say that hte grimdark is even so overboard that its at a point where it just washes over people.

Heck Game of Thrones is honestly far more grisly in how it describes the world and setting and there doesn't seem to be a huge blowback against that.

In fact Warhammer ignores a lot of things like actual rap, sex scenes and the like. It more plays to that almost childish level of violence and the grim-dark is mostly the hoplessless of the far future and the extensive use of skulls in their gothic inspired designs.

 Overread wrote:
In fact Warhammer ignores a lot of things like actual rap, ...

Which bothers me a lot, because Slick Rick was a legend.

The John Christopher Tripod Trilogy, if you want to get down to brass tacks.
That grimdark enough for you?

Grimdark is considered a sort of sub-genre or style of fantasy. Settings tend to be very gritty, characters have very little in the way of plot armor. If it would actually be worse to live in a setting than in the actual middle ages, then it is probably grimdark.

While the term definitely comes from 40k, it is Game of Thrones (and probably the HBO series more than the books) that has really been the biggest influence in its rise as a sub-genre. J. Ambercrombie is a huge name in the sub-genre as well.

I'd personally like to recommend Myke Cole's The Armored Saint, since we're talking about YA. It is a short YA novel that features a very gritty Grimdark setting. It is absolute evidence that YA and Grimdark are not contradictory (and the book probably could happen on some feral imperial planet).

 sockwithaticket wrote:

dyndraig wrote:
. Anyone read the Haunting of Alaizabel Cray by Chris Wooding or The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman? I think 8 - 12 is actually too old a demographic for these new books, 5 - 8 is probably more appropriate given what (admittedly little) informatio we have so far.

Non-picture books aimed at 5-8 are generally called "Chapter Books" (because kids at that age are reading their first books that are separated out into Chapters). The American Girl series comes to mind. I don't think that's what we're dealing with, though.


8-12 comes from the official statements. While the art style looks very cartoony, I have seen similar styles used for Middle Grade books before (Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians). I must say, though, that style of art doesn't give me the impression that these will be dark fantasy books, even at the middle grade level (not like the Dave Mckean covers for Neil Gaiman books).


The Graveyard Book (and Coraline) are middle grade books. Neil Gaiman is very good with his folklore and fairy tales, and likes to express the darkness that children can totally handle, even if adults often think they can't. But I don't think I've ever read him go nihilistic enough to get to Grimdark (mostly because his settings have lots of hope in them, despite the darkness).


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PS:

 Duskweaver wrote:
[
I do have misgivings about the 40K version of Warhammer Adventures, though. My problem with the idea is more or less the opposite of what most people seem to be worried about. I'm not concerned about it being insufficiently grimdark or too happy/kiddified. I'm worried that some well-meaning, liberal-minded, probably-American-but-maybe-British parents are going to buy these books for their kids, then find out what the 'real' 40K setting is like and go ape-gak over GW spoonfeeding their little darling fascist propaganda (as they would see it).

That's an interesting concern, but I think it is one that GW are aware of and are addressing.

One thing that I noticed is that the characters don't seem to have strong loyalties to the Imperium. One kid is even a draft dodger, and the other ones seem to see through the Imperial propaganda machine. I don't think very many people have a problem with the existence of the evil fascist dystopia when our heroes don't really support it.

Can't say this is something I'm interested in.

However, after this weekend running across an old Choose Your Own Adventure book (and remembering the D&D versions), I'd love to see a 40K (maybe even a WHFB/Sigmar) version of a CYOA book - especially if it was like the Lone Wolf books, which was essentially a solo adventure book (with stats & dice rolls to boot).

They had two roleplay adventure books for 40k as POD books on the BL site a few years ago, but they yanked them pretty quick. Unfortunately, I only managed to snag Hive of the Dead, and none of the WHFB books, and HotD is really heavy on zombies and Nurgle, both of which I find tedious.


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I hope they bring them back.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The only thing I am interested in with this garbage is the miniatures.

.

Have you seen Wizkids' Wardlings minis? They are prepainted minis of fantasy setting kids but can probably be stripped or converted.

 Grot 6 wrote:
The only thing I am interested in with this garbage is the miniatures.

You keep saying this, but is there ACTUAL basis for this claim?

Not in any of the promotional material from Black Library.

 reds8n wrote:


https://twitter.com/cavanscott/status/1005198649276747777

In the last couple of weeks, I have had people try to post comments on my website saying they hope I get terminally ill. I am, apparently, a cist on humanity’s corpse. Why? Because I’m hired to write children’s book for properties the commenters love.

I have to say right or wrong I laughed hard when I saw Matt Ward defending him.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not in any of the promotional material from Black Library.

Unfortunately not just that. There doesn't seem to be much desire on GW's part to offer Black Library tie-in models. There have been a couple of collector's pieces and really, the only thing we ever got was the Gaunt's Ghosts box?

If ever there was a time, though, this is it. We got specialist games back, GW is doing board games again, they make starter games aimed at younger gamers (like the Necron tomb Space Marine Adventure) - there might just be a chance to get something along those lines for Warhammer adventures.

But for now that's all hopes and wishes.

Actually..

I don't count him because we got him in 54mm already. Before the books, too, if my timeline isn't out of whack.

So no.

The difference, however, is that the model on sale now is specifically a tie-in to the novels (and is the second such tie-in Eisenhorn). Unlike the one for the Inquisitor game, upon which the novels are based.

There's also the Blood Ravens commander model from Forge World, along with Loken & Abaddon (and a significant chunk of the Horus Heresy Character series, Isuppose )