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**Bharring**

The argument that being overcosted is fine, it just means you shouldn't take that stuff is silly. Should everything but Eldar and IG and a few other things be removed the game?

Also, not about to throw the seargent of my 1st squad of my battle company in the trash just because you don't care for my choices.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It isn't my fault you chose melee upgrades for a unit that won't last in melee. Use it as a stand-in Captain for all I care.

**Bharring**

How is that any different than "It isn't my fault you chose [Iron hands, wasn't it?] instead of $flavorOfTheMonth, use it as proxies instead?"

That's a terrible design philosophy.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
How is that any different than "It isn't my fault you chose [Iron hands, wasn't it?] instead of $flavorOfTheMonth, use it as proxies instead?"

That's a terrible design philosophy.

Don't blame me, blame the game designers. However, basic common sense should tell you a Power Fist is a bad choice for an Infantry sergeant or a Tactical Marine Sergeant as those are designated shooting units, and will only ever be good once it becomes so cheap that you buy it every single time you have the chance.

**Bharring**

Well, that depends on if Tac Marines are a "Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty" unit, or just a shooty unit. They are now, of course, just a shooty unit.

There is, in theory, a price point where they're worth taking some of the time but not all of the time. Of course, that price point varies between Captains and Sarges.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
Well, that depends on if Tac Marines are a "Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty" unit, or just a shooty unit. They are now, of course, just a shooty unit.

There is, in theory, a price point where they're worth taking some of the time but not all of the time. Of course, that price point varies between Captains and Sarges.

This is the first edition where they would be able to fire their Bolters and charge, and they're still firmly a shooting unit.

Saying they're just NOW a shooting unit is plain silly.

**Bharring**

Well, seeing how much more mileage they got in CC in 6th and 7th... They were a shooting unit that could outchop the shootier units.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
Well, seeing how much more mileage they got in CC in 6th and 7th... They were a shooting unit that could outchop the shootier units.

WHAT mileage? They couldn't shoot and charge outside their dinky Bolt Pistols!

**w1zard**

Xenomancers wrote:
The system is busted in this sense. Which is why fixing it and some places and not others creates even worse imbalance.

That is hilarious... that was exactly my argument for why guardsmen shouldn't go up to 5 points unless other infantry were getting fixed at the same time. I got shouted down.

iGuy91 wrote:
Guys.. saying that a BS4+ lascannon and BS3+ lascannon shouldnt cost the same is kinda nonsense, it doesn't take everything into account.

The WEAPONS should cost the same.
The difference in price should be baked into the cost of the model holding it. Space Marines pay 13 points for a model to hold a lascannon. A heavy weapons team is 6 points a model, which provides it the extra wound, lesser armor save, lesser strength, and lesser toughness.

*That* is where the price difference shows up. The gun itself, the lascannon, is a 25 point weapon, and should absolutely cost the same. The marine player is already paying over twice as much for the darn platform, and then another 5 additional points just for the privilege of the stupid gun?

So a Guard has to pay 26 points to bring a lascannon. Marines have to pay 38??? 33% more?? Nonsense. Guard HWT with lascannon ought to be paying 31, bringing the lascannon to a 25 point gun. The bearers are already appropriately priced for what they bring to the table.

No, AM is absolutely getting their guns for too cheap. It was the same way with Scions getting 9 point plasma guns on 9 point models, when marines had to pay 13 for the same gun, on a 13 point model. It needs to be streamlined.

Because offense is generally considered multiplicative instead of additive.

You have a platform worth X amount of points, and a weaker platform worth Y amount of points.

The same gun is *MULTIPLICATIVELY* stronger in X's hands than Y's hands because not only does X usually have higher damage output due to higher ballistic skill, X is also more durable. It is therefore *MULTIPLICATIVELY* harder to remove the unit with *MULTIPLICATIVELY* higher damage output. Linear arithmetic can't keep up with that, so points cost need to be based on a multiplicative scale, which is why BS 3+ units pay more for fancy guns than BS 4+ units.

I hope that was a good explanation, it is kind of hard to wrap your head around if you are looking in from the outside.