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2018/08/13 11:46:46
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
2018/08/13 17:36:12
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Which they are not, liberators and sce were the answer to chaos warriors. Because chaos warriors we're murderizing everything that came before them.
Unfortunately currently who ever is writing has a massive thing for SCE because they made even the most basic SCE way over powered. Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye, and one even managed to hurt nurgal. Let that sink in, a SCE....hurt....a chaos god. All of the novels need to be taken with a grain of salt because they buff up SCE to push sales.
Chaos warriors are on the same power level as your normal fresh off the boat sce liberator.
To many unpainted models to count.
2018/08/13 17:39:35
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
That's ridiculous. GUO's whole shtick is insane durability and shooting its eye shouldn't kill it. Having a random SCE hurt Nurgle on top of that is insane. That's got to be exaggerated.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/08/13 19:57:34
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
I can't speak to the novels, but if you're basing anything off fluff from a battletome, always remember that battletomes tend to talk up the faction they're representing. They basically read like propaganda written by that faction.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2018/08/13 21:21:37
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/08/13 22:28:08
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/14 20:23:22
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
I did not make the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", Someone else did, I just pointed you to where someone got it from. The only clam I made was that sormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors. The end.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/14 21:43:32
2018/08/14 22:45:55
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
And we've disputed that claim. I still don't know where you're getting that. Chaos Warriors are the same as they were in the Old World. They're blessed by their gods with daemonic armor and weapons. They are constantly in combat. Stormcast are essentially order-aligned Chaos Warriors. They are equals. That is the point we have been trying to make.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 22:46:08
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2018/08/14 23:56:37
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
I did not make the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", Someone else did, I just pointed you to where someone got it from. The only clam I made was that sormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors. The end.
I literally have you quoted saying exactly that. As for the second claim; that is false. It has been thoroughly established within the thread that a basic stormcast is on par with a basic chaos warrior. Comparisons where Stormcast have beat superior numbers of Chaos have always involved more elite stormcast (paladins, prosecutors, judicators, characters) against lesser Chaos minions. Instances where Chaos has equivalent troops have required Stormcast to field greater numbers and/or utilize superior tactics to win.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 00:02:02
EnTyme wrote: And we've disputed that claim. I still don't know where you're getting that. Chaos Warriors are the same as they were in the Old World. They're blessed by their gods with daemonic armor and weapons. They are constantly in combat. Stormcast are essentially order-aligned Chaos Warriors. They are equals. That is the point we have been trying to make.
Stormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors, Stormcast have Sequitors, Evocators,Prosecutors, etc. The title of this thread is "Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals" It's a single type of unit vs. an army. Stormcast are far more flexible and diverse.
2018/08/15 00:16:59
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
I did not make the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", Someone else did, I just pointed you to where someone got it from. The only clam I made was that sormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors. The end.
I literally have you quoted saying exactly that. As for the second claim; that is false. It has been thoroughly established within the thread that a basic stormcast is on par with a basic chaos warrior. Comparisons where Stormcast have beat superior numbers of Chaos have always involved more elite stormcast (paladins, prosecutors, judicators, characters) against lesser Chaos minions. Instances where Chaos has equivalent troops have required Stormcast to field greater numbers and/or utilize superior tactics to win.
Backspacehacker made the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", I just copy and posted it and gave you the source of where he got it from. And judicators, prosecutors, Sequitors are not elite, they are rank-and-file.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 00:26:16
2018/08/15 00:27:10
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
EnTyme wrote: And we've disputed that claim. I still don't know where you're getting that. Chaos Warriors are the same as they were in the Old World. They're blessed by their gods with daemonic armor and weapons. They are constantly in combat. Stormcast are essentially order-aligned Chaos Warriors. They are equals. That is the point we have been trying to make.
Stormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors, Stormcast have Sequitors, Evocators,Prosecutors, etc. The title of this thread is "Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals" It's a single type of unit vs. an army. Stormcast are far more flexible and diverse.
That's a disingenuous argument. The thread has been discussing Stormcast in the context of their full army, and we've taken "Chaos Warriors" to be "Warriors of Chaos", i.e. their whole army as well. If you take the thread title literally, this entire thread was pointless.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
2018/08/15 00:33:41
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
EnTyme wrote: And we've disputed that claim. I still don't know where you're getting that. Chaos Warriors are the same as they were in the Old World. They're blessed by their gods with daemonic armor and weapons. They are constantly in combat. Stormcast are essentially order-aligned Chaos Warriors. They are equals. That is the point we have been trying to make.
Stormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors, Stormcast have Sequitors, Evocators,Prosecutors, etc. The title of this thread is "Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals" It's a single type of unit vs. an army. Stormcast are far more flexible and diverse.
That's a disingenuous argument. The thread has been discussing Stormcast in the context of their full army, and we've taken "Chaos Warriors" to be "Warriors of Chaos", i.e. their whole army as well. If you take the thread title literally, this entire thread was pointless.
Oh, so all "Slaves to darkness" then? army vs. army. I did skip some post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 01:09:11
2018/08/15 00:50:00
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
I did not make the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", Someone else did, I just pointed you to where someone got it from. The only clam I made was that sormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors. The end.
I literally have you quoted saying exactly that. As for the second claim; that is false. It has been thoroughly established within the thread that a basic stormcast is on par with a basic chaos warrior. Comparisons where Stormcast have beat superior numbers of Chaos have always involved more elite stormcast (paladins, prosecutors, judicators, characters) against lesser Chaos minions. Instances where Chaos has equivalent troops have required Stormcast to field greater numbers and/or utilize superior tactics to win.
Backspacehacker made the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", I just copy and posted it and gave you the source of where he got it from. And judicators, prosecutors, Sequitors are not elite, they are rank-and-file.
As EnTyme mentioned, this is very disengenuous. You referenced the event as a real event, acting as if it was true and not a complete falsification, by linking a page that does not even include it. All that page says is that he 'slew a great unclean one' with no mention of the method, context, or implying that he did it with one shot. I can see the argument for Judicators being rank and file, but the fact is they are more elite than a liberator and they are not a Chaos Warrior equivalent. Prosecutors simply are not rank and file, nor are Sequitors (who are only rank and file for the Sacrosanct Chamber, which is a specialized and elite sub-division).
Backspacehacker wrote: Lest we forget a SCE was able to one shot A GREATER DAEMON OF NURGAL with a single arrow to the eye
When did this actually happen? I cannot find it and I am not sure it did, you may be mis-remembering.
Also, they did not wound Nurgle himself, at least in the sense of actually dealing any sort of damage. The 'harm' was analogous to getting a static shock; no injury was caused. He recoiled for a moment and was mad they poked him. Also this was a Lord Relictor who had the souls of 30+ Stormcast stored in his body, such that he literally had no flesh anymore, his body a fire/lightning storm within his armor. He jumped into Nurgle's 'hand' and insta-died to basically poke him and go 'suck it!' Further, the only reason they made it that far into Nurgle's Garden in the first place is because they were deliberately lured there and allowed to get that far. Do not get me wrong; it is totally overblown. What they did was way too much in my eyes and should have been toned back. But the way this event is being described above is simply untrue.
If we are going to talk fluff accurately we need to represent the fluff accurately, not a different version with all the depth stripped out.
(And if I could get a page ref on the gargant-chopping I really do want to re read that.)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think you are confusing characters with rank and file troopers; Stormcast characters are absolutely head-and-shoulders above regular guys be they normal mortals or empowered ones. It has definitely been shown that blightkings in particular are no pushovers and Stormcast have always needed superior numbers/tactics in order to succeed. Also, I find those three mentions interesting since in all of them the Stormcast die.
Regardless, I do not recall the instance with the chaos gargant, could you give me the page number so I can re-read that?
I did not say stormcast don't die. I said the average stormcast liberator are above the average Chaos Warrior and blightking in both training and equipment. Also stormcast are always the ones outnumbered, If anything it is Chaos who use superior numbers to win.
Some of the instances you mention involve Chaos Lords sending their minions to die, with the ultimate killing attack coming when the Chaos side chose to. The Stormcast did not just die; they lost. They came back again and won later, but the point is they lost. And these are forces with huge amounts of judicators, paladins, prosecutors, and characters that are all much stronger than the majority of the chaos force, who were onyl party Chaos Warriors proper and many described as 'bare chested savages' so marauders; a measly 6-point-per-model infantry unit. When the Chaos Side does deploy more significant units like chariots, monsters, or characters it is not something the Stormcast just roll over. Also something not to be understated is superior tactics used by the Stormcast, which always comes into play. This is like one side having a bunch of battalions and elite units while the other is three-quarters battleline.
When someone says that a basic Chaos Warrior is on par with a Liberator it is disengenuous to come back with examples that are completely different from those two units fighting one on one.
I did not say stormcast can't lose battles, also if Liberators can kill blood Warriors one on one. In my opinion, I don't see Chaos Warriors faring much better.
You are still dodging the point that the evidence simply does not back up your conclusion. You are making statements then raising fluff to support it, but what you are talking about does not exist in the manner you describe.
As a great example is this deal with one-shotting a greater daemon. This did not happen, at all. I just read it to be sure, so I can 100% confirm that the story does not go as you describe. He made the finishing blow by firing a star fated arrow (d6+3 damage btw) into its mouth, AFTER him and an entire battalion of prosecutors had already been attacking it. It says that he fires so many arrows "his quiver would have been emptied three times over if it did not refill" before he loosed the star-fated arrow.
I cannot stress enough that what you are saying simply is. Not. True.
I did not make the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", Someone else did, I just pointed you to where someone got it from. The only clam I made was that sormcast are better trained and better equipped then Chaos Warriors. The end.
I literally have you quoted saying exactly that. As for the second claim; that is false. It has been thoroughly established within the thread that a basic stormcast is on par with a basic chaos warrior. Comparisons where Stormcast have beat superior numbers of Chaos have always involved more elite stormcast (paladins, prosecutors, judicators, characters) against lesser Chaos minions. Instances where Chaos has equivalent troops have required Stormcast to field greater numbers and/or utilize superior tactics to win.
Backspacehacker made the clam that stormcast "one-shotting a greater daemon", I just copy and posted it and gave you the source of where he got it from. And judicators, prosecutors, Sequitors are not elite, they are rank-and-file.
As EnTyme mentioned, this is very disengenuous. You referenced the event as a real event, acting as if it was true and not a complete falsification, by linking a page that does not even include it. All that page says is that he 'slew a great unclean one' with no mention of the method, context, or implying that he did it with one shot. I can see the argument for Judicators being rank and file, but the fact is they are more elite than a liberator and they are not a Chaos Warrior equivalent. Prosecutors simply are not rank and file, nor are Sequitors (who are only rank and file for the Sacrosanct Chamber, which is a specialized and elite sub-division).
I said nothing disengenuous, you all are talking about stormcast Eternals, you never specified a Chamber. And EnTyme just said that it's army vs. army. And I quoted Backspacehacker and said a great unclean one was shot in the eye with a star-fated arrow and who it was that did it.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/15 01:19:23
2018/08/15 02:17:49
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Chaos Warriors, in the old WHFB fluff, were definitely more than human. They were warriors who had served their chosen god(s) for decades, if not centuries. They often had many mutations and gifts of enhanced strength. Their armor and weapons are forged with daemonic sorcery as much as by smithcraft.
Hence why Chaos Warriors were WS5, Str4, T4, and had 2 attacks. While a trained Empire swordsman, who were better than the typical human at melee combat, were only Ws4(basic troops were WS3), Str3, and T3.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Also both sides have their specialists units. Hell the whole point of stormcast is that sigmar desired a force equal to chaos warriors, it's why humans largely got their asses handed to them during the events of the world that was.
2018/08/15 18:11:24
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Also both sides have their specialists units. Hell the whole point of stormcast is that sigmar desired a force equal to chaos warriors, it's why humans largely got their asses handed to them during the events of the world that was.
But if Sigmar creates an outnumbered army... Then maybe it was not so smart to make them not more powerful then chaos warriors. you would expect more of the god of gods... lol
2018/08/15 21:08:46
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Also both sides have their specialists units. Hell the whole point of stormcast is that sigmar desired a force equal to chaos warriors, it's why humans largely got their asses handed to them during the events of the world that was.
But if Sigmar creates an outnumbered army... Then maybe it was not so smart to make them not more powerful then chaos warriors. you would expect more of the god of gods... lol
I mean, that's probably why the Stormcast rarely fight on their own. In the stories I've read, they're always leading a force from the Free Cities.
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2018/08/16 02:30:38
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
In this cinematic for the old fantasy mmo standard humans, including Karl Franz, barely come up to the chest of chaos warriors (granted these ones might be chosen) and get thrown around like children
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 17:28:16
2018/08/19 22:41:53
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
That was not the MMO but a previous RTS-like Total War. The MMO was Return of Reckoning not Mark of chaos. And that isn't Karl Franz, but a generic Priest. But I agree, I feel in love with Chaos Warrior the moment I saw that cinematic.
And the cinematics of that game where epic. The one of the expansion, Battle March, is very good too.
This cinematic and the LOTR scene where the trolls enter Minas Tirith are the only two situations where I have seen a realistic reflection on what would happen if you put one "Brute" of those that popular in fantasy agaisnt a bunch of normal infantry
https://youtu.be/CEZ38oFsNH4
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/08/23 11:55:42
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
It wouldn’t make much sense if they were a on a level. If that’s the case then how have they been pushing Chaos back if they are equal, outnumbered, have Daemons to deal with and the enemy can easily replace their losses by uplifting any random person? Whereas there’s a finite amount of Stormcast and they can’t easily be replaced. Every one of them is explicitly the best and most heroic people Signar could find. That’s a smaller pool of people than, well, everybody.
They can’t simultaneously be on par and massively outnumbered; yet be taking territory back?
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2018/08/23 15:49:17
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Totalwar1402 wrote: It wouldn’t make much sense if they were a on a level. If that’s the case then how have they been pushing Chaos back if they are equal, outnumbered, have Daemons to deal with and the enemy can easily replace their losses by uplifting any random person? Whereas there’s a finite amount of Stormcast and they can’t easily be replaced. Every one of them is explicitly the best and most heroic people Signar could find. That’s a smaller pool of people than, well, everybody.
They can’t simultaneously be on par and massively outnumbered; yet be taking territory back?
Could their success be attributed to individual acts of heroism?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/23 17:46:08
Subject: Re:Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Totalwar1402 wrote: It wouldn’t make much sense if they were a on a level. If that’s the case then how have they been pushing Chaos back if they are equal, outnumbered, have Daemons to deal with and the enemy can easily replace their losses by uplifting any random person? Whereas there’s a finite amount of Stormcast and they can’t easily be replaced. Every one of them is explicitly the best and most heroic people Signar could find. That’s a smaller pool of people than, well, everybody.
They can’t simultaneously be on par and massively outnumbered; yet be taking territory back?
Could their success be attributed to individual acts of heroism?
The story is one of grand armies clashing and mass combat. Not Fellowship of the Ring style bands of heroes who win by a series of dues ex machina. So heroism isn’t the deciding factor or even prevalent unless it applies to the whole army.
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III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
2018/08/23 20:06:43
Subject: Lore: Why are Chaos Warriors as good as Stormcast Eternals?
Totalwar1402 wrote: It wouldn’t make much sense if they were a on a level. If that’s the case then how have they been pushing Chaos back if they are equal, outnumbered, have Daemons to deal with and the enemy can easily replace their losses by uplifting any random person? Whereas there’s a finite amount of Stormcast and they can’t easily be replaced. Every one of them is explicitly the best and most heroic people Signar could find. That’s a smaller pool of people than, well, everybody.
They can’t simultaneously be on par and massively outnumbered; yet be taking territory back?
Because the Stormcast are fighting alongside Free Peoples, Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, the Collegiate Arcane, Wanderers, Kharadron Overlords, et. al. The war isn't Stormcast v. Chaos, it's Order v. Chaos. The creation of the Stormcast was just the tipping point that allowed Order to finally fight back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 21:37:03
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
Sylvaneth A forest
XIII Legion 9000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
