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pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

what intreasting storyline is that? besides outside of a few conspiracy theorists no one had ever suggested Gulliman was a traitor. sometimes you just show up late for a fight, if every general who was delayed arriving was a traitor there would be an aweful lot of military triators in history

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

what intreasting storyline is that? besides outside of a few conspiracy theorists no one had ever suggested Gulliman was a traitor. sometimes you just show up late for a fight, if every general who was delayed arriving was a traitor there would be an aweful lot of military triators in history

He is a traitor though, so is guilliman and sanguinius, All broke the edict (for good reason) All helped set up a second imperium, All with good intentions and for good reasons, All acts of treason had the emperor been around to see it or if the custodes had witnessed it.

Possibly, although I think the Custodes, and certainly the Emperor would have realised the reasoning behind it; it appears that Imperium Secundus wasn't an attempt to overthrow and replace the Imperium, but rather to serve as a successor rump state in the event of the Imperium's collapse. After all, once they realised the Imperium was surviving, Guilliman, El'Jonson and Sanguinius packed it in.

 Formosa wrote:

He is a traitor though, so is guilliman and sanguinius, All broke the edict (for good reason) All helped set up a second imperium, All with good intentions and for good reasons, All acts of treason had the emperor been around to see it or if the custodes had witnessed it.

An entire story line which centered around the assumption that Terra was either lost or inaccessible, and they realized exactly how it could be taken, but their other option was leaving the sizable chunk of the imperium they could secure in the lurch.

It's a source of guilt for those involved and relatively little else, it was nearly impossible to get to Terra so they did what they practically could.

The grimdarkblamyness of your stance would take effect some couple thousand years later, and still wouldn't apply to a primarch.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

what intreasting storyline is that? besides outside of a few conspiracy theorists no one had ever suggested Gulliman was a traitor. sometimes you just show up late for a fight, if every general who was delayed arriving was a traitor there would be an aweful lot of military triators in history

I meant there isn't one. Think about it like this - Guilliman comes back to life because of Eldar intervention, Cawl comes back with a ready made army and Guilliman gets his orders from the Emperor. Combine that with some Imperial historians finding incomplete records of Imperium Secondus and remove the part where we 100% know Guilliman spoke with the Emperor and you can make an interesting story about where their loyalties are. Are they there to serve the Emperor? To replace him? To serve Chaos or Xenos? All of those are more interesting than just having him be so good from the off.

Well, whether their intention is to serve some nefarious Eldar plot or not is totally independent of whether they are serving some nefarious Eldar plot. Same with Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the topic of the thread:

Of course they're secretive. They managed to convince the IoM that they were loyalists during the Heresy - but it takes a lot to keep that lie believeable!

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

He is a traitor though, so is guilliman and sanguinius, All broke the edict (for good reason) All helped set up a second imperium, All with good intentions and for good reasons, All acts of treason had the emperor been around to see it or if the custodes had witnessed it.

An entire story line which centered around the assumption that Terra was either lost or inaccessible, and they realized exactly how it could be taken, but their other option was leaving the sizable chunk of the imperium they could secure in the lurch.

It's a source of guilt for those involved and relatively little else, it was nearly impossible to get to Terra so they did what they practically could.

The grimdarkblamyness of your stance would take effect some couple thousand years later, and still wouldn't apply to a primarch.

Yeah and it did, dark imperium shows guilliman is still guilty about doing it, they all were, it was all about what was nessary at the time which is something that some of the traitors thought, peturabo for example believed what he did was nessary and it led to his fall, same could have happened to a lot of the primarchs.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
The premise of this question is as follows: What exactly is it that the DA are hiding, and why is it such a big deal?

Before I go on, I should explain that whilst I've read quite a bit of their lore via Lexicanum etc., I've never really delved into DA themed books, much less any of the HH ones. So, onward we go...

I know that the deal is, Lion grounds a bunch of the DA on Caliban, and goes off to fight in the GC. When he gets back, after the HH, he finds they're all a bit ticked off with him, and may/may not have turned to Chaos. So he batters the planet and defeats/scatters the traitors. Job done. But why is this such a big deal to them? The White Scars had a whole bunch of their Legion side with Horus. Hasik Noyan-Khan commanded 20 Brotherhoods which, being as a Brotherhood is equal to a Chapter, means that potentially up to half of the Legion went rogue. Although it was more likely that much less than that supported Hasik, it wasn't an inconsiderable chunk that sided with Hasik and ultimately Horus. They even attempted to assassinate Jaghitai Khan - but they aren't keeping it in the dark or being super-secretive about it. It happened, and was dealt with. And since the HH, there have been plenty of Chapters that have partially turned to Chaos, but yet again they just get on with it. Sure, they'll have a special hatred for their former kin, but they aren't backstabbing and betraying their allies to cover up their 'secret'.

So what is so 'unique' about the DA/Fallen? To me, it just seems like a overly contrived way of making them special.

Caliban, the fallen and the watchers in the dark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

He is a traitor though, so is guilliman and sanguinius, All broke the edict (for good reason) All helped set up a second imperium, All with good intentions and for good reasons, All acts of treason had the emperor been around to see it or if the custodes had witnessed it.

An entire story line which centered around the assumption that Terra was either lost or inaccessible, and they realized exactly how it could be taken, but their other option was leaving the sizable chunk of the imperium they could secure in the lurch.

It's a source of guilt for those involved and relatively little else, it was nearly impossible to get to Terra so they did what they practically could.

The grimdarkblamyness of your stance would take effect some couple thousand years later, and still wouldn't apply to a primarch.

Yeah and it did, dark imperium shows guilliman is still guilty about doing it, they all were, it was all about what was nessary at the time which is something that some of the traitors thought, peturabo for example believed what he did was nessary and it led to his fall, same could have happened to a lot of the primarchs.

Yeah, Pert was one of the last to embrace Chaos, he joined the warmaster as a sane person.

pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

I know. Dull. As I said before. Too much is known about the secrets so they aren’t secrets any more. Damn HH books. I hope which ever loyalist primarch comes back next is at odds with roboute, not open conflict but very different image of how things should be to create a bit of drama.

Andykp wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

I know. Dull. As I said before. Too much is known about the secrets so they aren’t secrets any more. Damn HH books. I hope which ever loyalist primarch comes back next is at odds with roboute, not open conflict but very different image of how things should be to create a bit of drama.

Russ could be a fun one, their loyalty is both unquestionable yes but they'd, at the same time be a good foil for each other.

"Alright so we'll conduct the plan this way and that way..."
"bah forget that brother, just shut up and.. CHARGE!"
"DAMNIT LEMEN!"

I'd love to see what Russ would make of what his old legion has turned into. From space vikings who cheerfully exterminated the population of Prospero, to wolf-fetishists who are so opposed to killing civilians that they briefly went to war with the Grey Knights over the issue. I'm not sure Russ would even recognise the modern Space Wolves.

I have wondered the exact same thing

Would be good. I think wolf or lion they could end up upset with the states of their legions and what roboute is up to. Not sure anyone would notice if khan came back.

Andykp wrote:
Would be good. I think wolf or lion they could end up upset with the states of their legions and what roboute is up to. Not sure anyone would notice if khan came back.

The Lion might be upset, but Russ proably wouldn't, Keep in mind running the Imperium is what Gulliman was doing until his run in with Fulgrim. Heck for all we know Gulliman got the OK from the primarchs active at the time, such as Russ, to do the Primaris Marines.Which would be a mildly amusing thing to see.

"GREAT WOLF! YOU'RE BACK! YOU'D NEVER BELIVE WHAT YOUR BROTHER GULLIMAN IS DOING!"
"Ohh what?" "He's running the empire for a start" "Well we all agreed he was good at that, surely thats not it" "And he's got a AdMech Tech Preist to design a new more powerful class of Space Marines" "Yeah I knew about that too, hell it was my idea. So is there anything else?" "... no apparently everything's cool my Primarch"

Also for what it's worth Lionel Johnsons' the Dark Angel is a pretty good read no matter what your orientation and I think it needs to be said GW was probably not making a gay joke at the expense of a homosexual poet. Rather I think the Dark Angels are poking fun at Space Marines themselves and GW as a whole. I mean, you don't sit down and create a fictional monastic order of warriors and not immediately see that such orders throughout time were traditionally accepting and encouraging of homosexuality. However, it's a game. And 1980-something... Anyone who knew about Lionel Johnson would immediately get the reference. So you say your chapter is all male hmmm? Chortle. What's the matter? Oh nothing! And they have a terrible secret? Hmmm...

Anyways the point is, I don't believe that a young GW, with jokes about football hooliganism and Margaret Thatcher, were taking the piss out of gays, they were making fun of themselves and their Space Marines. I think that needs to be said since these days there seems to be some pretty avid gak talkers ready to accuse GW of all sorts of evil stuff. I mean, yeah they're an evil corporation, but only cuz they charge so much for their toys! I think it also needs to be said because there isn't really any way to remove the reference without totally rewriting the chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also like to think the Dark Angels are also inspired more by the message of Lionel Johnsons' poem rather than as a cunning joke about sexuality that would go over many players heads pretty much until the invention of the internet. Anyone who hasn't read The Dark Angel by Lionel Johnson probably should, especially fans of the Chapter who want to know more about their totally loyal dudes and the inspiration behind them.

Bharring wrote:
Well, whether their intention is to serve some nefarious Eldar plot or not is totally independent of whether they are serving some nefarious Eldar plot. Same with Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the topic of the thread:

Of course they're secretive. They managed to convince the IoM that they were loyalists during the Heresy - but it takes a lot to keep that lie believeable!

The conspiracy theory is that the treason went a lot deeper...namely that the ENTIRE Dark Angels legion went traitor, and were just late to the party on Terra so they swapped back to Imperium loyalties. The few who remained loyal, well...they are "The Fallen" and are viciously hunted down by the former traitors to keep their secret in the dark. The best evidence for this is that only the traitor legions and the Dark Angels changed their armor colors during the Heresy.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The conspiracy theory is that the treason went a lot deeper...namely that the ENTIRE Dark Angels legion went traitor, and were just late to the party on Terra so they swapped back to Imperium loyalties. The few who remained loyal, well...they are "The Fallen" and are viciously hunted down by the former traitors to keep their secret in the dark. The best evidence for this is that only the traitor legions and the Dark Angels changed their armor colors during the Heresy.

a) that's been debunked already b) all legions changed colours. Where did you read DA changed colours MID heresy and not after anyway?

Yeah, notably the space wolves changed from a dark grey to a "sky grey"

the Ultramarines altered their colours slightly by reserving gold for the second company. etc

tneva82 wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
The conspiracy theory is that the treason went a lot deeper...namely that the ENTIRE Dark Angels legion went traitor, and were just late to the party on Terra so they swapped back to Imperium loyalties. The few who remained loyal, well...they are "The Fallen" and are viciously hunted down by the former traitors to keep their secret in the dark. The best evidence for this is that only the traitor legions and the Dark Angels changed their armor colors during the Heresy.

a) that's been debunked already b) all legions changed colours. Where did you read DA changed colours MID heresy and not after anyway?

I think we also have too many instances for Fallen working for/with chaos and changed / DPs etc
It was never going to be that way.

The more the current timeline fluff went forward, the more it was made clear Lion loyal, Luther loathsome..