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I think this is one of the dumber changes in the lore over the years. I think it probably was a response to the horus heresy novels. I think originally all the space marines believed in the emperor as a god. They even have prayer time built into their daily routine. I'm not sure why they've tried to change this recently, since it doesn't make much sense for them not to believe.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think the Blood Raven do because I am pretty sure Gabriel Angelos says something about "The God Emperor".

Actually, a lot of SM use 'god Emperor' because it's both his official title these days, and to not offend screaming fundies they already have strained relationship with. It's a lot easier to not slip when you use the title all the time, even if you don't really believe in it. Same deal why atheists these days can use 'heavens forbid' as an expression - because it was hammered into popular culture, and you can't avoid soaking in it, no matter what your beliefs are, even though thankfully in present times religion is enforced on way lower level than in 40K.

Maybe that's what I'm basing my opinion on - the DoW games are full of blood angels with "Venerate the Immortal emperor' this and 'God Emperor' that.

Are you sure you're not quoting Chaplain? Because their speech is pseudo-religious for a reason...

That is the same thing. The Eccelsiarchy is just as certain they have records, documents, and history showing that he is a powerful immortal being with supernatural powers.

Nope. They have faith and fables. Space Marines know the official story. Imagine you knew say Buddha was real and his teachings about supernatural were accurate - can you have faith when you know it's a fact? These two things are mutually exclusive, and try as you might, there is no way to equate praying to divine myth to trying to call attention of vastly powerful, immortal man-psyker to you. These two things are fundamentally different on about every possible level.

The only loyalist Space Marine who was around when the Emperor was alive is Bjorn. Every non-wolf space marine gets their knowledge from the exact same histories and fables as the Ecclesiarchy.

The Ecclesiarchy is as convinced as the Space Marines are that they know the official story.

As I already mentioned previously, the modern split between "faith" vs "fact" is a modern conception of faith, particularly when it conflicts with what science says about the world. Faith in the ancient world however was not about believing in the face of fact, and the two things were not mutually exclusive. Ancient people knew their gods their gods were real and that their teachings were accurate. Ancient people knew Apollo was real just as they knew the sun was in the sky and that the sky was blue. Faith historically was about rendering divine honor to immortal beings that were known to be real. Calling them mere fables is using a modern rationalist perspective to look at their beliefs, because implicit in those words is the acknowledgement that they are not real. While some thinkers in the past might have argued about faith in the gods, it was about whether for example the fickle fallible Greek gods deserved to be given divine honors and worship, not whether they existed (since it was a known "fact" they did). It is only in relatively modern times that faith has been redefined to mean believing in things that cannot be proven or that aren't true or that fly in the face of known science.

The Ecclesiarchy praying and seeking the attention and supernatural blessing of the vastly powerful immortal being ruling an afterlife they call a God is no different at all from the Space Marines praying to and seeking the supernatural blessing of the vastly powerful immortal being ruling an afterlife they call a Man. The titles and details of ritual may differ but they are both engaged in faith and religious worship. Both are convinced they know the true official story. The Marines are acting no differently from the Ecclesiarchy, no matter how many linguistic gymnastics, gyrations, and false distinctions they try to use to claim what they do isn't religious practice.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I was reading about the Iron Hands when all of this started last night. Do the Iron Hands believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah and therefore a god?

Oof. The Omnissiah is kind of a tricky subject. Its a concept born by the techpriests of Mars (who the Iron Hands have close ties to). In reality, the omnissiah is probably the void dragon, a C'tan (More or less a Necron god) who just happens to be napping on Mars.

So, the techpriests of Mars are more than likely worshiping a C'tan, and just call it the 'Omnissiah', who the Ecclesiarchy politely assumes is the Emperor, in order to avoid a civil war.

I'm not sure if the void dragon is the Omnissiah honestly, I know that's one possiabile interpretation of Mechanicus, but the same novel actually presents us with an alternative. Consider, the Warp contains a source of all knowledge, we know that just as the heresy kicked off a tech preist was working on the ability to access this via a machine called the Akashic Reader, we also know that various individuals, such as Dalia Cythera have a innate connection to this part of the warp, and are able to develop all sorts of things (one wonders how many of these people have been burned for heresy over the Millenia) It's BTW likely a safe bet the Emperor can tap this aspect of the warp too, which explains his apparent technological genius (could access to this part of the warp be what he was doing at Molech?) so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon.

Basicly what I'm getting at is the Omnissiah may have been several people, One of who was the Emperor.... another of whom was Dalia Cythera.

The void dragon is their god, the Emperor used it to make the Mechanicum but also that so that they'd see him as a manifestation of their god so they'd follow him:

"'The Emperor? Yes,' said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. 'He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.'

'But why?'

'The Emperor sees things we do not,' said Semyon. 'He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity's understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.'

'You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?'

'Of course,' said Semyon. 'He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor's grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.'

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor's designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness."

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand in your desire to randomly quote gak from a book (one I'm in the middle of re-reading) you miss the nuance. My point is, that is the void dragon really the god, or simply a bridge to the god. It's a philophsical question for which there is no real right answer BTW

Randomly quote, its pretty spot on actually.

"so it's possiable the void dragon isn't the Omnissiah, persay, but rather simply a bridge for the average joes to get tech inspiration etc. And that the Omnissiah could be deemed to be anyone capable of making this connection to the warp's "knowledge bank" WITHOUT a intermediary such as the void dragon."

No it doesn't matter what you think it is, the void dragon is the Omnissiah, what it is and how it does what it does can be theorised but the void dragon IS the Omnissiah its what causes them to have their belief in the Omnissiah, it isn't actually the omnisiah or an intermediary, it just causes them to believe in the Omnissiah, when you've finished the book you'll understand. So you can't get out of being wrong by saying 'philosophy'. I mean you haven't even got to that part yet, so I don't know how you know all the nuance and I don't know why you are arguing in the first place.

I believe he said “re-reading” it.

And he’s not wrong he’s posing an argument that cannot be refuted reliably. As can yours not be. They are both valid. It’s a matter of preference.

90% of the Chapters believe the Emperor is a god and pray to him or ask for his guidance in a lot of the novels; with notable acceptions being that of Chapters like the Space Wolves. I think there is a degree of projection from people with regard to this as there are a lot of athiests in real life who are not fond of the idea of their army being religious when they are not religious themselves.

However, a litmus test for finding out if your Space Marine chapter is religious is this.....: Can you Chapter take Chaplains?
Yes: God EMPRAH
No: Then no.

Please do not necro old threads.