Space Wolves Faction Ability / Chapter Tactics

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**Valentine009**

Justyn wrote:
really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I honestly don't believe they are killy enough for their points. They went down a ton in attack power from 7th to 8th (all the attacks being made by the Marine, to half of the attacks being made by the TW). A 5 pt reduction in cost is probably not going to help a ton. Over a couple units you'll save what 20pts, 40? I'm not sure how many SS you run in a unit. Typically I do half or a bit over. The +1 to hit will help some by itself, making the expensive weapons hit more. But they either need to be much cheaper, or have more wnds/attacks. Currently a Wound and an Attack is worth ~5pts. Basic Marine to Intercessor. Well the closest Things to Thunderwolves are Inceptors. They have -1 wound, but otherwise the same profile. The Thunderwolf is also essentially equipped with 1d3 +1str -1 save extra attacks, and doesn't fly, but can take melee weapons. Well we know Melee weapons cost the same on pretty much everything, so that isn't important. Is that one wound and (average) 2 attacks worth 15pts? Also lets not forget that fly helps a ton when getting at enemy units in ruins and such. Thunderwolves can't use transports, can't outflank. Currently the only job i see them doing is escorting TW characters across the table. WG Bikers are better at that. I think Thunderwolves should cost about 10 pts less (5 for the model and 5 for the SS) and have one more base attack. That should make them about right compared to other options IMO.

No. The reason Storm Shields are more expensive, are because a 3++ is considerably more effective on a t5 model with 3w, then it is on a t4 model with 1 wound. It is the same reason that certain weapons cost more on units with more attacks or better WS.

There is a huge issue with ruins and calvary though. The fact that you can climb stairs and be invincible against certain units is broken.

**Justyn**

No. The reason Storm Shields are more expensive, are because a 3++ is considerably more effective on a t5 model with 3w, then it is on a t4 model with 1 wound. It is the same reason that certain weapons cost more on units with more attacks or better WS.

Fine, then the whole model needs to be 10 pts less which works out better for the SW player. Which part gets cheaper how is a quibble. If you disagree completely say so and give me your arguments.

**Ice_can**

Justyn wrote:
No. The reason Storm Shields are more expensive, are because a 3++ is considerably more effective on a t5 model with 3w, then it is on a t4 model with 1 wound. It is the same reason that certain weapons cost more on units with more attacks or better WS.

Fine, then the whole model needs to be 10 pts less which works out better for the SW player. Which part gets cheaper how is a quibble. If you disagree completely say so and give me your arguments.

Because Thunderwolfs with Thunderhammer Storm shields are hitting on 3 with thunderhammers no dead rolls, have t5 3++ save 3 wounds movement of 10 inch you remove too many points and that is a meta defining unit and thats is before you go shenanigans and start taking 2 dudes with storm shields to tank stuff and everyone else is TH+ Chainswords.

**BoomWolf**

Valentine009 wrote:
Justyn wrote:
really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I honestly don't believe they are killy enough for their points. They went down a ton in attack power from 7th to 8th (all the attacks being made by the Marine, to half of the attacks being made by the TW). A 5 pt reduction in cost is probably not going to help a ton. Over a couple units you'll save what 20pts, 40? I'm not sure how many SS you run in a unit. Typically I do half or a bit over. The +1 to hit will help some by itself, making the expensive weapons hit more. But they either need to be much cheaper, or have more wnds/attacks. Currently a Wound and an Attack is worth ~5pts. Basic Marine to Intercessor. Well the closest Things to Thunderwolves are Inceptors. They have -1 wound, but otherwise the same profile. The Thunderwolf is also essentially equipped with 1d3 +1str -1 save extra attacks, and doesn't fly, but can take melee weapons. Well we know Melee weapons cost the same on pretty much everything, so that isn't important. Is that one wound and (average) 2 attacks worth 15pts? Also lets not forget that fly helps a ton when getting at enemy units in ruins and such. Thunderwolves can't use transports, can't outflank. Currently the only job i see them doing is escorting TW characters across the table. WG Bikers are better at that. I think Thunderwolves should cost about 10 pts less (5 for the model and 5 for the SS) and have one more base attack. That should make them about right compared to other options IMO.

No. The reason Storm Shields are more expensive, are because a 3++ is considerably more effective on a t5 model with 3w, then it is on a t4 model with 1 wound. It is the same reason that certain weapons cost more on units with more attacks or better WS.

There is a huge issue with ruins and calvary though. The fact that you can climb stairs and be invincible against certain units is broken.

No, it's giving foot assault and jump assault units some sort of use over cav/bikes
They can function in dense multi level ruins. Bikes and cav really can't.

The fact giant war machines taller than the building can't IS an actual issue.

**Marmatag**

Thunderwolf Cavalry were just another unit that has been invalidated by Custodes.

Yeah, they'll have a 3++ instead of a 4++, but they don't fly, don't have hurricane bolters, don't have counter-charge stratagems (yet), don't have built in psychic defense, can't deep strike (yet), don't have stratagems to add attacks as models die, have less toughness (big deal), are slower (also big deal), don't have a 2+ base save, and up until codex have inferior ws/bs, and I believe 1 less wound...

As time goes by it becomes apparent that quite a few units were made trivial by Custodes. And i'm not a fan of that.

**Martel732**

There is not enough design space in the current game to wedge in Custodes like they did.

**IronBrand**

BoomWolf wrote:
Valentine009 wrote:
Justyn wrote:
really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I honestly don't believe they are killy enough for their points. They went down a ton in attack power from 7th to 8th (all the attacks being made by the Marine, to half of the attacks being made by the TW). A 5 pt reduction in cost is probably not going to help a ton. Over a couple units you'll save what 20pts, 40? I'm not sure how many SS you run in a unit. Typically I do half or a bit over. The +1 to hit will help some by itself, making the expensive weapons hit more. But they either need to be much cheaper, or have more wnds/attacks. Currently a Wound and an Attack is worth ~5pts. Basic Marine to Intercessor. Well the closest Things to Thunderwolves are Inceptors. They have -1 wound, but otherwise the same profile. The Thunderwolf is also essentially equipped with 1d3 +1str -1 save extra attacks, and doesn't fly, but can take melee weapons. Well we know Melee weapons cost the same on pretty much everything, so that isn't important. Is that one wound and (average) 2 attacks worth 15pts? Also lets not forget that fly helps a ton when getting at enemy units in ruins and such. Thunderwolves can't use transports, can't outflank. Currently the only job i see them doing is escorting TW characters across the table. WG Bikers are better at that. I think Thunderwolves should cost about 10 pts less (5 for the model and 5 for the SS) and have one more base attack. That should make them about right compared to other options IMO.

No. The reason Storm Shields are more expensive, are because a 3++ is considerably more effective on a t5 model with 3w, then it is on a t4 model with 1 wound. It is the same reason that certain weapons cost more on units with more attacks or better WS.

There is a huge issue with ruins and calvary though. The fact that you can climb stairs and be invincible against certain units is broken.

No, it's giving foot assault and jump assault units some sort of use over cav/bikes
They can function in dense multi level ruins. Bikes and cav really can't.

The fact giant war machines taller than the building can't IS an actual issue.

It's only a problem when you look at it outside of the context of a game. A knight being able to melee attack things in ruins means they could potentially stomp on something on the third floor which makes even less sense than them not being able to punch someone on the second floor. They'd need to go through each unit where the model reaches the floor then each weapon those models have and rule on a per weapon basis if they can attack higher floors. Or they'd need to give every unit that can reach higher floors a rule that they can make attacks on higher floors using the default strength user AP 0 profile. There's no elegant way to just fix what people seem to think is as simple as saying models over a certain size can attack things on higher floors from a game design perspective.

**BoomWolf**

Yes there is?
Give the knigt a general rule to ignore vertical distance on melee (up to a given hight even) , except stumps that can only kill things on your level.
Its a knight unique issue solved by a knight spesific rule. Most every other cc monsters just need to ignore vertical distance (to a limit) for cc and that's it. Solved in one line per relevant dataslate.

**IronBrand**

BoomWolf wrote:
Yes there is?
Give the knigt a general rule to ignore vertical distance on melee (up to a given hight even) , except stumps that can only kill things on your level.
Its a knight unique issue solved by a knight spesific rule. Most every other cc monsters just need to ignore vertical distance (to a limit) for cc and that's it. Solved in one line per relevant dataslate.

Except then it's a lot of errata spread across many pdfs. It's not just a "knight unique problem", there's stompas, dreadnoughts, dunecrawlers, riptides, ironstriders, stormsurges, gorkanauts, trygons, mawlocs, ghostkeels, penitent engines, morkanauts, wraithknights, slaughterbrutes, vortex beasts, maulerfiends, forgefiends, deff dreads, helbrutes, killa kans, beasts of nurgle, war walkers, fiends of slaanesh and probably some other stuff too. That's ignoring forgeworld models. You can't make a rule for just knights on the basis of "they're tall enough to hit that" while simultaneously disregarding every other unit that is also conceivably tall enough.

**BrianDavion**

Justyn wrote:
really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I honestly don't believe they are killy enough for their points. They went down a ton in attack power from 7th to 8th (all the attacks being made by the Marine, to half of the attacks being made by the TW). A 5 pt reduction in cost is probably not going to help a ton. Over a couple units you'll save what 20pts, 40? I'm not sure how many SS you run in a unit. Typically I do half or a bit over. The +1 to hit will help some by itself, making the expensive weapons hit more. But they either need to be much cheaper, or have more wnds/attacks. Currently a Wound and an Attack is worth ~5pts. Basic Marine to Intercessor. Well the closest Things to Thunderwolves are Inceptors. They have -1 wound, but otherwise the same profile. The Thunderwolf is also essentially equipped with 1d3 +1str -1 save extra attacks, and doesn't fly, but can take melee weapons. Well we know Melee weapons cost the same on pretty much everything, so that isn't important. Is that one wound and (average) 2 attacks worth 15pts? Also lets not forget that fly helps a ton when getting at enemy units in ruins and such. Thunderwolves can't use transports, can't outflank. Currently the only job i see them doing is escorting TW characters across the table. WG Bikers are better at that. I think Thunderwolves should cost about 10 pts less (5 for the model and 5 for the SS) and have one more base attack. That should make them about right compared to other options IMO.

it's possiable we'll also see a stratigium for TWC, givren Harald deathwolf's special ability I'd be annoyed if they didn't give TWC a way to flank.

**Ice_can**

Marmatag wrote:
Thunderwolf Cavalry were just another unit that has been invalidated by Custodes.

Yeah, they'll have a 3++ instead of a 4++, but they don't fly, don't have hurricane bolters, don't have counter-charge stratagems (yet), don't have built in psychic defense, can't deep strike (yet), don't have stratagems to add attacks as models die, have less toughness (big deal), are slower (also big deal), don't have a 2+ base save, and up until codex have inferior ws/bs, and I believe 1 less wound...

As time goes by it becomes apparent that quite a few units were made trivial by Custodes. And i'm not a fan of that.

They are also 66 points with thunderhammer stormshield not 90 points or 4 Thunderwolfs vrs 3 preateors.

**Justyn**

They are also 66 points with thunderhammer stormshield not 90 points or 4 Thunderwolfs vrs 3 preateors.

Which the 3 Preators are significantly better.

**BrianDavion**

Justyn wrote:
They are also 66 points with thunderhammer stormshield not 90 points or 4 Thunderwolfs vrs 3 preateors.

Which the 3 Preators are significantly better.

yeah but for 3 preators I can't use my space wolf stratigiums on em, and I'd not be too suprised to see one or two that can make TWC rather useful, honestly given the "Iconic TWC named character HQ" has out flanking as a special rule I'm of the opinion there needs to be a way to allow for TWC to out flank.

Also if the only thing that makes em "b ad" is point values that might be fixed.

**Slayer-Fan123**

So basically they're doing Thunder Hammers and Power Fists better and they get a better Heroic Intervention.

Oh yeah and they get a bunch of Vanilla toys too because. So all that's left that's unique to the Vanilla codex is Centurions (overpriced), Ironclad Dreads (okayish), and Thunderfire Cannons (also okayish).

Grey Hunters are gonna be good with that bonus that's for sure.

**Justyn**

Also if the only thing that makes em "b ad" is point values that might be fixed.

One can hope.

**Ice_can**

Justyn wrote:
They are also 66 points with thunderhammer stormshield not 90 points or 4 Thunderwolfs vrs 3 preateors.

Which the 3 Preators are significantly better.

Depends on what your attacking. Preators loose out vrs T6, T7 hard and T8.