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 ChargerIIC wrote:
No.

Heck No.

Do you remeber MK 1? It was terribly unbalanced and involved one player steamrolling the other until you mercifully finished them off.

I agree, why would you go back when the rule set is the tightest it has ever been. I guess for nostalgia sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

PP clearing out their warehouse worries me far more than for that reason. I think it’s an ominous sign.

I'd not be too concerned about this. The warehouse clearance seems to largely be a result of their attempts at sprue plastic. Since it was outsourced, they had to put in a print run order and that order had to be large enough to cover the initial store demand at a distributor level and future stock as a second print run would likely run into a good number of delays. This happens pretty often whenever you outsource production, particularly on something like sprue plastic where large orders get you steep discounts. Eventually sales level off and you get an idea how much extra you have in stock you ended up with and sell it off because.... well, it was borderline free to produce so selling it cheap is still pretty profitable.

This is particularly true for PP who traditionally has done production in house and could largely control production to meet demand. The move to resin really helps them return to this format and I suspect they're finding themselves happier having control than reacting to overseas manufacturing. In that case, if the main demand for warehouse space is to store plastic colossal kits, which we've seen is a design space with high but limited demand, well... clear them out and focus on what works for you.

That and there is no coincidence that the time PP buys their rights to Monsterpocalypse back, makes a new movie deal with Universal (I think, it is one of the big studios) but keep the merchandising rights, and prepares for a re-release of Monsterpocalypse, they begin clearing out the warehouse to make room. They are preparing for something.

Noooo.

I would like to see them reboot to MK 3.5 - clean out some of the bloat from the main factions (meaning dropping some units/jacks/characters) and start anew with proper plastic kits. (or go all resin, if they must, but really PP should be making plastic) Since this would take some time, starting with MK1 units would be as good a place as any.

Schmapdi wrote:
Noooo.

I would like to see them reboot to MK 3.5 - clean out some of the bloat from the main factions (meaning dropping some units/jacks/characters) and start anew with proper plastic kits. (or go all resin, if they must, but really PP should be making plastic) Since this would take some time, starting with MK1 units would be as good a place as any.

That's the position I've come around to as well. I think my desire for a harsher reboot was attempting to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. The real problem is the bloat not the rules themselves. I was definitely wrong about that.

 Chamberlain wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
Noooo.

I would like to see them reboot to MK 3.5 - clean out some of the bloat from the main factions (meaning dropping some units/jacks/characters) and start anew with proper plastic kits. (or go all resin, if they must, but really PP should be making plastic) Since this would take some time, starting with MK1 units would be as good a place as any.

That's the position I've come around to as well. I think my desire for a harsher reboot was attempting to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. The real problem is the bloat not the rules themselves. I was definitely wrong about that.

The rules are a problem in that the level of stacking synergy of stuff has gotten out of control and needs to be dialed in quite a bit IMO. Also - while talking about this fantasy reboot. Would like to see them decrease max unit sizes. 14 men in the Rocketeer group is ridiculous for a skirmish game. Max unit should be 6 men, + unit attachment/weapons = up to 10 max.

Funny, I'd rather see a streamlining of rules to allow larger battles to be fought faster. Move over to a d12 rather than 2d6 would allow units of models to attack other units, and "boosted" rolls could be a +3 modifier or something like that instead of an extra die.

I find the model by model combat to be tedious at 75 points. I'd be in favour of a unit vs unit combat system.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Funny, I'd rather see a streamlining of rules to allow larger battles to be fought faster. Move over to a d12 rather than 2d6 would allow units of models to attack other units, and "boosted" rolls could be a +3 modifier or something like that instead of an extra die.

I find the model by model combat to be tedious at 75 points. I'd be in favour of a unit vs unit combat system.

Ugh. Please no.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Funny, I'd rather see a streamlining of rules to allow larger battles to be fought faster. Move over to a d12 rather than 2d6 would allow units of models to attack other units, and "boosted" rolls could be a +3 modifier or something like that instead of an extra die.

I find the model by model combat to be tedious at 75 points. I'd be in favour of a unit vs unit combat system.

2d6 and d12 are very, very different probability curves. You'd have to change a lot of fundamental rules - which are currently built on the 2d6 percentages and the prevlance of rolling 7s

 greatbigtree wrote:
Funny, I'd rather see a streamlining of rules to allow larger battles to be fought faster. Move over to a d12 rather than 2d6 would allow units of models to attack other units, and "boosted" rolls could be a +3 modifier or something like that instead of an extra die.

I find the model by model combat to be tedious at 75 points. I'd be in favour of a unit vs unit combat system.

The funny part is that any set point value is completely artificial. You can play at 52 points (though, War Room can't), if you and your opponent so choose.

Does anyone else remember that in Mk 1, Warriors were added to a unit on a model by model basis instead of the Min/Max started in Mk 2?

 Charistoph wrote:

The funny part is that any set point value is completely artificial. You can play at 52 points (though, War Room can't), if you and your opponent so choose.

It can, actually. Instead of using the -/+ buttons when creating an army, tap directly on the number and you can enter whatever value you want.

In regards to OP, WarmaHordes is, by design, clearly competitive. This is good-it's very easy to make a ruleset looser between players, and a lot harder to make it tight, so tighter rulesets cater to everyone.
And while WarmaHordes is tight and competitive, there's nothing stopping you from playing it in a looser style-my group has played various scenarios out where we adapt a looser and on-the-fly approach.
However, WarmaHordes will attract people who value the competitiveness of the ruleset. Your problem is less the game, and more your meta. While that sucks for you, the other guys are clearly enjoying what they're doing, otherwise they'd be joining you, and it's on you to convince them if you want a looser game. Run a few scenarios that appeal to their sense of challenge-dream up an asymmetric scenario, and challenge them to take the harder side.

In regards to painting, people will paint, or they won't. No point pushing that rock uphill. Lead by example.

I am aware that 1/6 rolls = 7 on 2d6, yes. I am also aware that rolls will “spike” high and low comparably more often with d12. Rolling a natural 12 on a d12 happens 8.3% of the time, instead of 2.8% with 2d6.

It does reduce the value of high stats, while improving the value of low stats. This tends to even out, as PP tends to keep combined armour and Defense stats fairly equal. A Khador jack is more likely to be missed by an attack, as low rolls are more likely, but more likely to take damage as high rolls are also more likely.

It may require some rejigging of points, but there would be other issues to unit vs unit combat, like allowing the defender to assign hits, for starters. UA’s become more valuable in that hypothetical situation for example.

It’s the only item I have for a wish list regarding WMH. Batch rolling and less model to model measurements. In that regard, I like 40k’s unit vs unit combat better.

 Charistoph wrote:

The funny part is that any set point value is completely artificial. You can play at 52 points (though, War Room can't), if you and your opponent so choose.

FWIW, its not COMPLETELY artificial. With the theme point threshholds, PP has been pretty cagey about setting WJP so that you come up just short with certain combos. Granted, its pretty minor, but there's a couple things that change rather significantly at say, 76 points.

I personally play a different caster in my faction ever week, this week played Rez2. Which was like driving a semi truck in down town NY city. I just throw together a list on war room with the models I have and have fun. Some play the same caster every week but I don’t and I don’t care if they do. Just want to relax after a long stressful day at work, talk shop, and roll some dice. Had a new guy start last week and I took his models home, assembled them ,and painted them for the guy for free. Even put them in a foam tray I had laying around. Didn’t mind one bit helping the new guy out because I remember many moons ago how overwhelmed I was learning TT gaming. He had know idea I was going to paint them and I didn’t tell him I’m addicted to painting models, so he sort of helped me out

 LunarSol wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The funny part is that any set point value is completely artificial. You can play at 52 points (though, War Room can't), if you and your opponent so choose.

FWIW, its not COMPLETELY artificial. With the theme point threshholds, PP has been pretty cagey about setting WJP so that you come up just short with certain combos. Granted, its pretty minor, but there's a couple things that change rather significantly at say, 76 points.

Yes, it is COMPLETELY artificial. WHO determines the point values and list conditions of your games? PP recommends, but in the end it is up to the game organizers, be they TOs or you and your friend.

 Chute82 wrote:
I personally play a different caster in my faction ever week, this week played Rez2. Which was like driving a semi truck in down town NY city. I just throw together a list on war room with the models I have and have fun. Some play the same caster every week but I don’t and I don’t care if they do. Just want to relax after a long stressful day at work, talk shop, and roll some dice. Had a new guy start last week and I took his models home, assembled them ,and painted them for the guy for free. Even put them in a foam tray I had laying around. Didn’t mind one bit helping the new guy out because I remember many moons ago how overwhelmed I was learning TT gaming. He had know idea I was going to paint them and I didn’t tell him I’m addicted to painting models, so he sort of helped me out

How did you know he didn't want to paint them? When I first got into miniatures games, it was because I used to build models, and I liked the idea of having something I could do with them afterwards. Even a lot of people who don't like painting still like the assembly part.

Pink Horror wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
I personally play a different caster in my faction ever week, this week played Rez2. Which was like driving a semi truck in down town NY city. I just throw together a list on war room with the models I have and have fun. Some play the same caster every week but I don’t and I don’t care if they do. Just want to relax after a long stressful day at work, talk shop, and roll some dice. Had a new guy start last week and I took his models home, assembled them ,and painted them for the guy for free. Even put them in a foam tray I had laying around. Didn’t mind one bit helping the new guy out because I remember many moons ago how overwhelmed I was learning TT gaming. He had know idea I was going to paint them and I didn’t tell him I’m addicted to painting models, so he sort of helped me out

How did you know he didn't want to paint them? When I first got into miniatures games, it was because I used to build models, and I liked the idea of having something I could do with them afterwards. Even a lot of people who don't like painting still like the assembly part.

He gave me the models because he said “ could you build these for me, I have no idea how”. And even joked if I could paint them too. It was only the battle box and I gave him the paints I used so he now has the paints to use on the next model he buys. Was lucky recently and got a bunch of free paints from a guy so it put to good use and passed it forward

The main problem with Mk1 was too many rules that were essentially identical but one clause or different word made them behave wildly differently, and the utter lack of timing sequence rules creating situations where the Infernals at the time (myself included) could literally not answer the question of "How do you resolve a shadow shifting bane knight with berserk that kills a model that has an effect that triggers on destruction?"

Spoiler: under MK1 architecture, you literally cannot consistently answer that question. The ruling that "solved" it was a "because we said so" style ruling and was admitted as such.

A big thing that Lunatic Calm added and contributed to MK2 was an excellent timing matrix, a permutation of which persists in the game to this day.


MK1 was pretty cool, but it jumped the shark hard towards the end with (as noted) crazy ass gak like Vlad2 flying horses, and Caine2 Super friends ending games at the top of turn 1 if you weren't smart.

If we're jumping into the rules era time machine, mid stream MK2 would be my own personal halcyon days.


EDIT: i'll also agree with those saying a 3.5 would be nice, but i won't hold my breath. The player body on the whole does not seem to think that the stuff that is causing player bleed is a problem, and is actually a strength of the game. This double-down mentality makes any hope of a 3.5 remote.... that came off a bit saltier than i meant it, but i'm failing to come up with a better way to describe it, so, yeah.

I'm a little worried that their business model for the last 18 months seems to be "Release new mini factions, cut anything not performing as a profit center (promo staff, event support, NQ, etc), throw yearly bone to existing factions with 1 model, have never ending cycle of revision". I also personally don't find the competitive styles of events compelling anymore. I think steamroller has gotten stagnant as hell, as essentially just about every scenario can be, and has been able to be for years, reduced to "capture the geometry". Hardcore had its faults, but as a format it was a lot more dramatic, dynamic, and interesting than steamroller has been for years in my opinion.

 Haight wrote:

I'm a little worried that their business model for the last 18 months seems to be "Release new mini factions, cut anything not performing as a profit center (promo staff, event support, NQ, etc), throw yearly bone to existing factions with 1 model, have never ending cycle of revision".

Existing factions are honestly probably getting more content than they used to. This is particularly true in the form of real released models and not "stuff promised in a book that might be out in the next couple of years." The actual release schedule honestly hasn't changed all the much in terms of actual tangible models you can buy other than releases all being part of the same theme instead of the forced parity that bloated things like casters and jacks and took far too long to get to different unit types.

Unfortunately for me, I have lost interest to such a point I am considering selling all my armies. Too many decisions like ceasing No Quarter, no longer producing cards to go with the models, the culling of the factions forums, the rules bloat, the themes lists have gotten out of hand, and a few other odds and ends have really left me cold to the game. At this point, I can't say I want to play again.

Cancelling No Quarter was most likely a practical business decision. It was better than GW's mag when White Dwarf was nothing more than a paid-for catalog, but I've heard that its changes have been well received. With the resurgence of 40K and AoS, there has been less time for WMH, so less time for No Quarter. I know quite a few people who would share their mags with their group-mates, making having the subscription in large numbers of a group pointless. In other words, the print media has taken a hit due to progress in other areas.

The cards situation is also a practical decision because of how often they were changing cards when the decision was made. Heck, my Skorne deck was almost invalidated a few months after I got it. One of my LGS also put on clearance anything that had a Mk2 only card (I still wish I had enough money to grab that Mammoth in time...).

The rules bloat situation is actually far better than it was in WHFB 8th and 40K 7th. The rules tend to be consistent, reviewed, and corrected. However, when you have AoS and 40K simplifying their system drastically, it makes WMH seem like Rasheth after eating Jabba, whereas before it was closer to MacBain. At least its not like X-Wing where you gotta play Pokemon (Gotta Buy Them All, even stuff outside your faction) in order to have the upgrade cards you need to be your best. Imagine having to buy a Legion Shepherd so that your Protectorate Warcaster can have Revive!

The Themes list and the forums situations, I totally agree with you on that. I never really saw the negativity of the faction forums that was complained about, and I have Mercenaries and Skorne, but that may explain it, too. The Themese situation is little more than 40K's 7th Edition Formations in WMH. Too much is given for too little a cost such that it would be insane to take a standard list against a Theme list, short of being a hard counter.

The big mistake with themes was ever suggesting they were anything other than the only way to play the game. It's pretty clear PP needed to carve up the factions into smaller subfactions to create design space for new things and intended them to be the way the game is played. It's just the modern solution to that problem and you're seeing variations of it crop up in pretty much everything that's been around for a decade or so.

 LunarSol wrote:
The big mistake with themes was ever suggesting they were anything other than the only way to play the game. It's pretty clear PP needed to carve up the factions into smaller subfactions to create design space for new things and intended them to be the way the game is played. It's just the modern solution to that problem and you're seeing variations of it crop up in pretty much everything that's been around for a decade or so.

Much like 40K's Formations, they are built to be the only way to play. It's not even a suggestion. Even worse then 40K's Formations, every Theme comes with buildable slots to fit free models in to. This can lead to a 10-15 point disparity between forces on the table (depending on the Theme). The ADR even doubles down and restricts the Themes you can play with in Champions. Now, outside anything that uses ADR, it isn't an actual requirement, but you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't.

If you're trying to carve up design space, then there are better ways to do it, and this is not the effective way to manage this set up. It's also technically useless when the standard way to play doesn't consider Themes. This may change in Mk 4, or in a future errata, but we'll see.

That's very much the point. PP carved their factions into mini factions. I'm not sure what standard way to play you're referring to that doesn't use themes or why you think it would change. Themes are very much standard in pretty much every context. They're even listed as a base rule in Prime/Primal.

 LunarSol wrote:
That's very much the point. PP carved their factions into mini factions. I'm not sure what standard way to play you're referring to that doesn't use themes or why you think it would change. Themes are very much standard in pretty much every context. They're even listed as a base rule in Prime/Primal.

Standard Play would be straight out of the rulebook with no other additional styles of play. The only theme it has is for Cephalyx (as the Warcasters are literally unplayable out of Theme). It does state that there are others, but it isn't a requirement at all. Heck, the first few tiers of JML are non-Themed as well (but ridiculously restricted).

No. I have no problem with the rules as they stand and the CID limited scope fixes/releases with beta testing are a good way to go IMO. What they need to do is fix their prices internationally, especially with the plastics, because their £ prices are totally out of whack with their $ prices. They could also do with reforming and reintroducing their Press Ganger programme.

 Charistoph wrote:
The Themes list and the forums situations, I totally agree with you on that. I never really saw the negativity of the faction forums that was complained about, and I have Mercenaries and Skorne, but that may explain it, too. The Themese situation is little more than 40K's 7th Edition Formations in WMH. Too much is given for too little a cost such that it would be insane to take a standard list against a Theme list, short of being a hard counter.

Gonna pip up and say that one of the things I loved about WMH when I played throughout 2E was that theme lists were one of the few instances in a mini game where I was rewarded for taking less-good stuff. Sure, there were some themes that were busted and Always Taken, but on the whole it felt like WMH themes were about getting a little bit back for limiting your composition choices. I really, really appreciated that, since it's how I build armies across all systems.

I cannot say the same for 3E's themes. It has very much felt like you either play to a theme - which is quite easy to do! - or you intentionally play down in points. I'm all for actively avoiding in-meta choices as an army building mini-game, but I, like all those people who only play matched play in 40k or clamored for points in AOS (both me), also want to feel like I'm at least playing on the same footing as other players. Playing out of theme, and thus playing an army significantly smaller than my opponent's, is too intentionally imbalanced even for me.

I have other thoughts on the topic, like how nuking the Pressganger system was real bad, especially locally, but they've mostly been said. And full disclosure, I've had a shiny new Cryx army - and a dusty old Cryx army in my closet! - waiting to be painted and mobilized for closing on a year now, but with the resurgence of 40k and now KT I haven't had much interest in making WMH my third system, with Kings of War in first and GW things collectively sharing second. If anything, Infinity is the real contender for that spot, with far fewer miniatures required and a much, much stronger local scene.

- Salvage

 Seawolf wrote:
Unfortunately for me, I have lost interest to such a point I am considering selling all my armies. Too many decisions like ceasing No Quarter, no longer producing cards to go with the models, the culling of the factions forums, the rules bloat, the themes lists have gotten out of hand, and a few other odds and ends have really left me cold to the game. At this point, I can't say I want to play again.

The only reason I care to play again (after nearly a 2 year hiatus) is that my adult son wants it to be our game out of many to choose from.

as for the OP question, I have no problem with MK III -- but little experience.

WM/H as a game and as a community is the best it has been for a long while. Now that the CID has been going for ages, the coms is all done via FB etc people are just cracking on, the community is expanding again. However, people outside the game or the community dont see this.

WM/H does not have a balance or communication problem. it has an external image problem.

WMH does have a balance and communication problem, however, it is not a large one compared to some other game companies.

I had two rather large armies I was holding onto in the hopes that my son might like to pick it up once he got older. They are now being sold off to pay for other hobbies and it was once statement that he made that made it pretty clear to me.

He was reading about gators and said "Not only do I have to know what this army does, but I have to know what every other army does if I am going to know how to play this one."

That was pretty powerful to me, and fairly true. WM seems to have an over abundance of information you need about your opposing force in order to play your army effectively, and that is a -huge- amount of information a new player must overcome. Add in the constantly updated and changing rules system and CID with this game and its almost a job in an of itself if you want to play a game.

I don't think Warmachine is the game for you, bruh