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5+ DG prevents a lot less damage than you'd think
Otherwise their defensive stats are identical.

On average, 17W vs effectively 24W, so not really identical, no.

 grouchoben wrote:
On average, 17W vs effectively 24W, so not really identical, no.

What average thing automatically reduces Magnus overall wounds from18 to 17? Magnus has 18 wounds...

Morty is definitely more survivable without any powers cast, which no one can deny, but he does not have the versatility of Magnus. Sure you can build a crazy soup list to make Morty great, but Magnus stands on his own, which is why he's better (patently so, in fact)

bibotot wrote:
So I have no idea why people complain so much about the Guards, Dark Eldar and Yunnari, when the true broken faction is the Thousand Sons.

This is the list of factions and their performance at the NOVA open. I know the Guards won 1st place, but look.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gN_xwm6DvdOpMUGxObi-X5HboIdJF8fyKUdk0IeHE1s/edit#gid=769812891

Thousand Sons have about 60% winrate, the highest of the bunch and there are quite a few of them there to negate any skewing.

If you are still in doubt, ignore the Smite spam: bring Magnus to a friendly game against an unsuspecting opponent and you auto-win. It happens so regularly in Youtube Battle Reports. Bringing 3 big Dark Reaper squads or Guilliman surrounded by Hellblasters is cheese, but having Magnus winning the game on his own is rarely considered such.

show me TS lists which win regularly tournaments, most TS now are just supreme commnand detachment and btw Magnus is almost unplayable now at competitive level, invite you to take a look at Nova open final game and figure yourself which is a broken list, 90% of youtube games are not competitive or played by guys who dont really know what they are doing, bring Magnus against a competitive list and a skilled player and you see you lost him regulraly turn 1/2.

What's with people thinking that Chaos lists are monofaction still? TS lists are going to be battalions or supreme commands because you don't have to take bad units as tax anymore.

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?

The problem is - what do they do for troops? Rubrics are at best...okay...at worst - not worth half their points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?

The problem is - what do they do for troops? Rubrics are at best...okay...at worst - not worth half their points.

Rubrics are expensive but not that expensive. They're pretty hard to shift with dakka so they have a role to play. Rubrics at half their points would be the best troop unit in the game.

never seen 1 single pure Ts army list win something big. the most used Ts detachment is supreme command Ahriman+2/3 DP's and sometimes Magnus.

 blackmage wrote:
never seen 1 single pure Ts army list win something big. the most used Ts detachment is supreme command Ahriman+2/3 DP's and sometimes Magnus.

That's because pure armies are dumb. Stop playing pure armies, this is 8th edition and you're supposed to be playing a faction like Chaos or Imperium instead of a single codex. If your single codex is competitive against an entire megafaction, it's probably broken with the rest of the faction factored in.

meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?

The problem is - what do they do for troops? Rubrics are at best...okay...at worst - not worth half their points.

Rubrics are expensive but not that expensive. They're pretty hard to shift with dakka so they have a role to play. Rubrics at half their points would be the best troop unit in the game.

if rubrics would be 10pts then models like cultist or plaguebearers would be 2-3, pls make rubrics 10pts and give me plaguebearers at 3 so i can deploy 150 of them easily


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
never seen 1 single pure Ts army list win something big. the most used Ts detachment is supreme command Ahriman+2/3 DP's and sometimes Magnus.

That's because pure armies are dumb. Stop playing pure armies, this is 8th edition and you're supposed to be playing a faction like Chaos or Imperium instead of a single codex. If your single codex is competitive against an entire megafaction, it's probably broken with the rest of the faction factored in.

that's what i meant

Yeah, I agree then. I think there's room for TS battalions though because Cultists aren't bad and you can cheap out on 1 or more of those troops choices.

Most competitive Sons lists either take tzaangor flerds or just don't take Sons troops at all, and soup in something far better from Daemons or CSM. It's the HQ units that are bleeding edge in Sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sons cultists aren't really bad, as you say. But they absolutely suck compared to their CSM brothers - no relevant chapter trait, no tide of traitors, no morale immunity. The powers that boosts them best - prescience & VotLW - are available to every CSM faction too, so the only advantage they have is weaver, which normally needs to go on much more important units.

 blackmage wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?

The problem is - what do they do for troops? Rubrics are at best...okay...at worst - not worth half their points.

Rubrics are expensive but not that expensive. They're pretty hard to shift with dakka so they have a role to play. Rubrics at half their points would be the best troop unit in the game.

if rubrics would be 10pts then models like cultist or plaguebearers would be 2-3, pls make rubrics 10pts and give me plaguebearers at 3 so i can deploy 150 of them easily


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
never seen 1 single pure Ts army list win something big. the most used Ts detachment is supreme command Ahriman+2/3 DP's and sometimes Magnus.

That's because pure armies are dumb. Stop playing pure armies, this is 8th edition and you're supposed to be playing a faction like Chaos or Imperium instead of a single codex. If your single codex is competitive against an entire megafaction, it's probably broken with the rest of the faction factored in.

that's what i meant

I said at worst like...you are facing ravagers or IK...where your TS troops are just twice as expenisve and do nothing of any value. They are okayish if your opponent is not taking cc elements or relies on D1 to do damage.

 Xenomancers wrote:
[
I said at worst like...you are facing ravagers or IK...where your TS troops are just twice as expenisve and do nothing of any value. They are okayish if your opponent is not taking cc elements or relies on D1 to do damage.

Dude, if Rubrics were 10 points they'd be absolutely dominant. 10 points for a 3+/5++ that improves to a 2+ against dakka, much better boltguns, and a psyker.

the strongest things Ts has are characters (pd and ahriman in particular) and tzaangors (troops and enlightened) the rest of codex is quite mediocre

meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[
I said at worst like...you are facing ravagers or IK...where your TS troops are just twice as expenisve and do nothing of any value. They are okayish if your opponent is not taking cc elements or relies on D1 to do damage.

Dude, if Rubrics were 10 points they'd be absolutely dominant. 10 points for a 3+/5++ that improves to a 2+ against dakka, much better boltguns, and a psyker.

Most 1 damage weapons - don't have AP. The few that do aren't really amazing anyways. I'm not saying they are worth 10 points. I am saying in a lot of matchups they are worth 10 points lol. A cultist is always worth 5 points. Nothing really makes them already worse than they are. Rubrics are absolutely not worth what you pay for them ever though. They are god awful trash really.

 Xenomancers wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
[
I said at worst like...you are facing ravagers or IK...where your TS troops are just twice as expenisve and do nothing of any value. They are okayish if your opponent is not taking cc elements or relies on D1 to do damage.

Dude, if Rubrics were 10 points they'd be absolutely dominant. 10 points for a 3+/5++ that improves to a 2+ against dakka, much better boltguns, and a psyker.

Most 1 damage weapons - don't have AP. The few that do aren't really amazing anyways. I'm not saying they are worth 10 points. I am saying in a lot of matchups they are worth 10 points lol. A cultist is always worth 5 points. Nothing really makes them already worse than they are. Rubrics are absolutely not worth what you pay for them ever though. They are god awful trash really.

Not trash. Very few things are in this game. But not a very smart choice outside of liking the models or fluffy builds are concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another thought. Magnus is seeing more "pro" level play than I though he would after the changeling and invuln re-roll went live. But its still very very rare outside of, what, one list that packs he and morty? The Grim Adventures of Magnus and Morty are hardly tearing up metas.

bibotot wrote:
So I have no idea why people complain so much about the Guards, Dark Eldar and Yunnari, when the true broken faction is the Thousand Sons.

This is the list of factions and their performance at the NOVA open. I know the Guards won 1st place, but look.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gN_xwm6DvdOpMUGxObi-X5HboIdJF8fyKUdk0IeHE1s/edit#gid=769812891

Thousand Sons have about 60% winrate, the highest of the bunch and there are quite a few of them there to negate any skewing.

If you are still in doubt, ignore the Smite spam: bring Magnus to a friendly game against an unsuspecting opponent and you auto-win. It happens so regularly in Youtube Battle Reports. Bringing 3 big Dark Reaper squads or Guilliman surrounded by Hellblasters is cheese, but having Magnus winning the game on his own is rarely considered such.

I'm sorry, but I cannot take this argument seriously, because I play TS and while I believe they are the best, being OP is another question. TS are really bad at shooting (except enlightened, but they're not enough). Possibly, but your examples are really poor. Smite spam is not OP at all, because it's just a few guys. Especially when it's barely a few smites per turn. Not even more than 3. Any list that relies on smite spam to win games is not a list worth winning a GT as there are so many ways to easily counter it that I don't even consider it a threat at all.

Also Magnus is easy to deal with. I don't know what community you play in, but in a very competitive setting, Magnus is pretty worthless as he's taken down very easily. I have 6 GT lists that could easily take Magnus down in one turn without much trouble. Hell, I could take down both Mortarion and Magnus both in one turn without having to dedicate every model on them (probably 3/4). Point is, hellblasters and 3 big dark reaper units aren't as scary as people think (especially when you have a good list to deal with them and the right tactics without having to tailor for them).

You're a necromancer, not an exalted sorcerer!

meleti wrote:

Rubrics are expensive but not that expensive. They're pretty hard to shift with dakka so they have a role to play. Rubrics at half their points would be the best troop unit in the game.

Super solid unit now with the price drop. Little reason to not take a unit or two, in my opinion.

 Odrankt wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

May I ask what makes these two armies an "abomination" when paired together? I play against Tzeetch quite a lot but there is no Nurgle players in my area. So, I am very interested in how these two armies work together so I can "potentially" pre-pare for it if someone does run it.

Tzeentch and nurgle hate each other and having these two armies working so closely together with no backstabbery or betrayals badly breaks the the fluff of the game.

a 30 man unit of tzaangors tying up a whole army turn one is way worse than magnus could ever hope to be

 Kommisar wrote:
a 30 man unit of tzaangors tying up a whole army turn one is way worse than magnus could ever hope to be

Right All they tie up is chaff turn 1, unless you play against a noob.

Pure TS are already competitive, solid upper mid tiers. Chaos soups can be definitely top tiers, let's be honest. They're not far from the overly hated aeldari.

stratigo wrote:

 Odrankt wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

May I ask what makes these two armies an "abomination" when paired together? I play against Tzeetch quite a lot but there is no Nurgle players in my area. So, I am very interested in how these two armies work together so I can "potentially" pre-pare for it if someone does run it.

Tzeentch and nurgle hate each other and having these two armies working so closely together with no backstabbery or betrayals badly breaks the the fluff of the game.

A funny story for this one: I had a game some time ago where I was playing my DG lead by Mortarion and got matched with TS player who was fielding Magnus as teammate, we were facing two eldar armies. A hemlock flies up to Mortarion and tries to Jinx him barely passing his test, so Magnus rolls to deny the cast and rolls a one and a two. The TS player then re-rolls the two into a one. With -1 to saves Mortarion gets blow apart by fire prisms and lances.

Magnus: "I'll deny that" *waves hands dramatically without actually doing anything*
Magnus: "Oops, didn't work." *trollface*

Friggin' backstabbing sorcerer.

The first time I fought Magnus I killed him with cultists. CULTISTS.

In a 1000 point game. Lol...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Most competitive Sons lists either take tzaangor flerds or just don't take Sons troops at all, and soup in something far better from Daemons or CSM. It's the HQ units that are bleeding edge in Sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sons cultists aren't really bad, as you say. But they absolutely suck compared to their CSM brothers - no relevant chapter trait, no tide of traitors, no morale immunity. The powers that boosts them best - prescience & VotLW - are available to every CSM faction too, so the only advantage they have is weaver, which normally needs to go on much more important units.

Tsons cultists are great because they can turn your Ahriman supreme command into a battalion for the low low price of 150 points. That's like 40 points per CP. And you get a nice screen for your plaguebearers as a bonus.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:
a 30 man unit of tzaangors tying up a whole army turn one is way worse than magnus could ever hope to be

Right All they tie up is chaff turn 1, unless you play against a noob.

Step 1: Step back
Step 2: Death Hex
Step 3:
Step 4: Prrrrofit

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand Sons by themselves are a solid mid-tier army, nothing spectacular. Only that Tzeentch/Nurgle abomination list pushes them to top tables.

What ? An army that can do 40MW per turn at 24", with all the psychic buffs they can have (re-roll 1s, +1 or even +2 to psychic powers with magnus or a stratagem), is just mid tier ?

a full power smite is, at minimum, 100-ish points in a tsons list. More, because once you have three sorcerors, you need to bring the more expensive units.

to put out 40MW at 24", you'd need to have a list like

3 tzaangor shaman
3 sorcerors
3 terminator sorcerors
3 exalted sorcerors
magnus
ahriman
3 index sorcerors on discs
3 daemon princes

that's it, roughly 3000 points of just psyker characters.

tneva82 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
If your opponent can't 1round a Magnus, they can't 1round the innumerable other threats that share similar statlines.

They deserve to lose.

That sounds harsh to say, but 40k is not a forgiving game - it's hardly even balanced at all.

Doesn't speak well of the status of the game if 1 shotting primarch sized models is not just possible but essential though...

No it does not.

After multiple faq’s , fecebook posts, and two CA’s can we all agree the dumpster is blazing now?

 p5freak wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:
a 30 man unit of tzaangors tying up a whole army turn one is way worse than magnus could ever hope to be

Right All they tie up is chaff turn 1, unless you play against a noob.

Too bad boxing your opponent into their deployment zone and giving you complete board control doesn’t have any value.