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The free summoning works if it is compensated for on an army-wide level. For example, the allegiance abilities of Idoneth or Stormcast are really strong but those armies cannot summon. Compare to Nurgle (at 2k) where the allegiance is weak without summoning (it would just be the cycle of contagion--not that great on it's own) or FEC which have a similarly sub-par allegiance combined with high costs on the characters that do summon. Tzeentch now pays a premium on all its units to compensate for strong allegiance & summoning. Khorne summoning is a new way to spend blood tithe rather than being in addition to blood tithe. OP lists out of this group come from certain units being undercosted rather than issues with the allegiance itself.

Compare to Seraphon that had/have a very strong allegiance even if summoning is removed entirely. Legions has a similarly strong allegiance that is coupled with little restrictions on what can be in it (includes a good 3/4 of the Death alliance). Both these armies are quite powerful before summons are factored in at all.

Beastmen I see as closer to the first category. There are reserves for up to half the army, but brayherd only and 6" from the board edge only. Warherds and Thunderscorn get their little things instead, which are nice boosts but not great on their own. Beastmen also get the herdstone, a significant benefit but one that is unlikely to do anything for the reserves since they must come in round 1 and accordingly neither they nor the enemy is likely to be in range. The summoning comes as an extra tidbit on top of this, but again comes with a built in drawback that requires a hero and a sacrificial unit to be sitting on the herdstone and from the looks of it will not be bringing in that many points worth even late in the game.

So again like the above category I suspect the OP builts will come from exploiting certain units and/or artifacts/traits/abilities that get around the above drawbacks. Which is a flaw with those elements rather than the allegiance as a whole.

If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.

 Galas wrote:
The only thing I disagree with is that summoning points are worth a 1:1 ratio with normal, initial points.

A 300 point unit that you summon on the last turn of the game, specially if you have deployment limitations and can't just put it on top of an objetive to win you the game (Thats very busted), that only has 1 turn to do something, is not worth the same that a unit that you have or summon the first turn.

But I still believe the only way to make "free summoning" work and have it balanced with non-summoning lists is to have special summoner units/rules and special "summonable" units. Like "This Beastmen Mutated-Shaman can summon this Giant-Spider-Bird". And you give the appropiate cost to that shaman, for him ,and for his summoning.

Sure but I consider that a waste of a summons. You won't be free summoning on the last turn just to plop units down that do nothing. They will typically always be used to contest objectives. Essentially a free unit that your opponent cannot touch that just shows up on the last turn to score. Otherwise I wouldn't even count the unit showing up if all they did was just show up in the last turn and do nothing.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.

I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?

Honestly I think they could even be argued to be worth more. A unit I summon in later in the game is a unit that you cannot touch. You can't harm it. You can't affect it in any way and additionally I don't have to maneuver them into position in many cases, I can just plop them down.

Additionally it FORCES your opponent to play a certain way to counter effectively.

Units that I summon later in the game have always had a massive impact on the game (I've been playing Nurgle all year). WHile I don't ever summon a ton, I've burned through a 16-game streak of tabling opponents of various armies through a combo of double turn and my late turn summoning to cap objectives.

It has come to the point where if I am playing someone that is not summoning, I will not summon either simply because of the weight of negative experience that it brings and drives off players.

I'm speaking at the garage table or the casual FLGS table.

Tournaments are a totally different animal. Tournaments tend to be filled with powergamers powergaming optimized lists. Garage lists and casual tables are often not.

The gulf between powergamer and non powergamer list is very wide, and summoning is part of that with 2.0.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: my browser showed a different response above mine and I was responding to that. That response is no longer there so this response looks out of place.

C'mon ya gotta know the best way is to bring a second hero, shank him till he's dead for the summon points, then he turns into a spawn cuz yer playin gavespawn, so ya shank the spawn to death after!

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.

I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?

Its not a matter of having to ally the Mutalith in, its part of the army, if you check the app it has the Beast of Chaos keyword.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
If anyone is interested, I started a new discussion on summoning so as to not to derail this discussion on beastmen.

As far as Beastmen go, I may have come up with an alternative to activating Primordial Call other than hurling Ungors onto the sacrificial pyre. Instead you can sit a Mutalith Vortex Beast next to the herd stone, bleed it and then let it heal itself. This strategy maybe some what sub optimal but it has its advantages and I believe it better fits the narrative of my army.

I had heard Mutalith and Slaughterbrute are not in the book, and the only allies are Slaves to Darkness. Do we have confirmation we can use the Mutalith?

Its not a matter of having to ally the Mutalith in, its part of the army, if you check the app it has the Beast of Chaos keyword.

I see "Monsters of Chaos" but not "Beasts of Chaos" - that's what I"m talking about. People had said it and the slaughterbrute were not receiving the Beasts of Chaos keyword - that would make them both not part of the army. I wanted to use my mutalith and was disappointed to hear this, so I'm seeking confirmation.

I just double checked and you appear to be right, I could have sworn that I read it as Beast of Chaos last night but that was clearly wrong. I suppose you could cast Emerald Life swarm to try and counter act but you cant guarantee that you will always have access to it, not to mention it feels like a bit of a waste for the spell. Alternatively I heard that you can take the Festerpelt and preform self sacrifices but you only generate 1 HP back a turn.

The heardstone makes them immune to moral, so some ungores or ungore raiders (if want some shooting) and a hero at the stone, entire job is to sit their and get summon points (the hero can hide behind the stone cause it is big) seems like the cheapest option to me (for multi turn points). Any other cheaper options (not gravespawn ones, purely cause I don't like the aesthetic)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what are some of your go to units?

I love Minotaurs (bullgoars now days), have units of 6 (2x 2handed, 1x 2 weapon, 1x 1 weapon 1 shield, all old metal minoturs etc). IDK how will use them yet, will play test. I have a few doom bulls (looking at buying that failcast doom bull cause I like the look of him). I have like 4 metal shamans. I mucho love the Shaggoth model ( I have 3x metal ones, need to buy some d.ogres maybe to make them worth while, but I do love the models). However, the besitgors seem to be golden good... mucho more of them. Have umpteen million ungors and gors. Could be good screens and sacrifice.

What are your thoughts on models?

So after seeing the full chart for summons, I do think it is a balance issue. Not because of the big stuff but because of the 5-6 point options that can be brought in easily on round two. Those are units that can get serious work done beyond just holding an objective or hitting a really squishy enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol just saw the cocktrice is 100 points and not a behemoth.

The summons chart is to me a balance issue for the things you pointed out but also because you can get some monster spam going for free fairly easy.

I've now seen two games played with the new beastmen. Still need a lot of data to collect before a grand conclusion can be drawn.

However.

Both games the beastmen army was similar. Two different players. Both figured out free points == good. Both built a list around spamming summoning as much as possible. Both built a list that highlighted a lot of monsters, though only one took a horde.

Game 1 - bunch of small beast units, three large monsters, spam summoning vs seraphon doing the spam summoning.

Beastmen player got lunched because the seraphon list was just double powerful. Not only can it spam summon (dude brought in around 900 points in this game) but their units and abilities were just over the top good. Killed the shaman in turn 2 to stop beastmen summoning for the most part and then just overwhelmed him with the seraphon summoning.

Game 2 - beastman player with the horde plus spam summoning vs legion of nagash.

Beastman army summoning was reminding me of the seraphon garbage. Legion player couldn't get to the herdstone as beastman player screened it well.

Legion player lost his general in turn 3 and by then the beastmen summoning tipped the scales.

In the end - spam summoning won both games, though the beastmen split games 1-1.

What are the BoC players bringing to maximize summons?

Yeah, I feel like something wasn't being played right if we're looking at seraphon level summoning. They just don't have that ability from what I've seen.

Also curious as Ninth said.

I still don't know all the rules to know very well, they were getting a bunch of stuff from sacrificing and from command traits etc. From a chaos standpoint they were beating what I bring to the table as nurgle. Not that thats a lot... I typically summon in a unit of plague bearers and a drone unit.

I am assuming it is Allherd for the command ability that lets you turn command points into summon points, plus a battalion for an extra artifact (Allherd comes with a required one) to take The Knowing Eye which nets an extra command point every hero phase on a 4+. 1.5 summon points from command point conversion, d3 from shanking, and 1 by default for an average of 4.5 points a turn. Just one above average means a free chimera turn 2; something I suspect everyone can agree should not be happening at all, let alone with any regularity.

Even without that I feel like the 1 free point every turn bumps the summoning into 'too much' territory. IMO that should be dropped and the points generation should come solely from d3 shanks at turn; it simply does not take many points to bring in potent summons. And that Allherd command ability should simply be dropped. It should not have made it past playtesting.

On the upside, even that optimized version is still easier to deal with than merely competent Seraphon or Nagash summoning.

Easier than seraphon or nagash... yeah. But in the casual sense its still over the top.

It is right now in my opinion the best chaos summoning force at the moment in terms of amount of free extra stuff you can take, provided you screen that shaman off.

The game has completely devolved into cornerstoning free summoning if you have it.

 Hulksmash wrote:

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.

So that's then 600-120-cost of the babysit character. What's the cheapest character that fits the bill?

So just to be clear. I have a Greatfrey list Allherd. Do I get a cmd point for the Allherd. If not, this allows me still to get 2+ D3 summoning points although i wouldnt have any command points left. Also am I still allowed to put 3x3 Bullgor units in reserve Ambush. But they must come in on turn 1.

RB

tneva82 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.

So that's then 600-120-cost of the babysit character. What's the cheapest character that fits the bill?

There are some undisclosed factors. The "babysit" character can be a bray shaman that will be able to cast spell support rather than doing nothing, him and the unit he shanks are almost certainly going to be standing on an objective, and the actual point value is somewhat irrelevant next to the tactical value of deploying a chimera from the board edge round two.

Correct. The characters on the herdstone were not just sitting there doing nothing, they were contributing to the battle as if they would be anywhere else on the table as ranged support and buffs and spells.

There is no net loss to me in the equation. The army plays as if it would with no summoning and in addition gets a bunch of free monsters strolling in from board edges for added lol.

Reasonably speaking there are circumstances where that character and unit would want to move around; not having the freedom to do so is a tactical cost to be paid. But it is a small one because such circumstances are not common nor particularly punishing. As you said having a support caster stay in the back with a chump unit camping on an objective nearby would occur even in there was no summoning at all.

I'm new to Aos but if you are Allheard, you can spend a command point to get 1 more summon point. So get 1 summon point for Beast men, + D3 if sacrifice, +1 more if do Booming roar = 3 to 5 per turn. If you have more command points can you do Booming roar multiple times?

For sacrificing:
I think for the cheapest sacrifice unit and hero for summoning, that I have been looking at are, the chaos warhounds (80 points for 20 wounds) and for the hero is a Shaman (cause can do things even if sitting back). However, the warhounds don't count towards any battle scroll etc so ungors maybe better.

I'm going darkwalkers no matter what (is more to my theme) was just curious on the above about summon points.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I'm new to Aos but if you are Allheard, you can spend a command point to get 1 more summon point. So get 1 summon point for Beast men, + D3 if sacrifice, +1 more if do Booming roar = 3 to 5 per turn. If you have more command points can you do Booming roar multiple times?

For sacrificing:
I think for the cheapest sacrifice unit and hero for summoning, that I have been looking at are, the chaos warhounds (80 points for 20 wounds) and for the hero is a Shaman (cause can do things even if sitting back). However, the warhounds don't count towards any battle scroll etc so ungors maybe better.

I'm going darkwalkers no matter what (is more to my theme) was just curious on the above about summon points.

Warhounds have 1 wound each. So I'd say ungors are better for sacrificing for 20 points less, and battleline.

Wait a moment here now...

So if you can generate 8 PCP by turn 2 with good dice rolls, haven't you done 6 mortal wounds to those Ungors? Aren't they subject to Battleshock at the end of each round? Unless you burn a CP that unit will have to take a test. Ungors have Bravery 5 right? Book is inside, I'm smoking so it's a guess. But isn't there a good chance you'll wipe those Ungors by turn 2? Unless I'm reading it wrong there is no way to negate those MWs since doing so would cancel out the PCP. So a dirt cheap unit of Ungors could very well not even be able to generate the max amount of PCP on turn 2 if they rolled poorly in the BS phase. 10 Ungors take 3 MW, down to 7. Roll a 6 for BS, lose 4 more models, now you're down to 3 models. Well, I guess your 10 man unit could last 2 turns and generate 8 PCP, but that's it. So to really make use of summoning you have to invest more models than minimum squad size. A larger unit camping by the Herdstone means less points on the board elsewhere and possibly not contributing. Of course you're probably going to want Ungor Raiders so they can at least shoot, but that's upping the cost again. It seems like to really get the good stuff summoned you have to invest more than what may be feasible.

I'm not sure summoning is all that powerful for Beastmen! I think the best you can hope for is that 8 PCP by turn 2 and anything more is chasing a high. I'm not an expert but I'd say that you really have to weight the pros and cons of summoning for Beastmen and ask yourself if those points wouldn't be better invested in units you know can contribute reliably. With Brayherd Ambush available to us I think the decision is even less clear cut.

Also, we're entirely forgetting that other armies can pull deployment shenanigans to put troops in range to viably threaten your Herdstone campers! So even if you take a big blob to generate PCP the results still aren't guaranteed since you'll inevitably be taking losses and that will effect your ability to keep those sacrificial units on the board.

Herdstone lets you ignore battleshock.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Herdstone lets you ignore battleshock.

Oh right! Duh!

But still a 10 man unit won't be enough to reliably summon off of. Without having to take BS tests you're gaining maybe a turn? And all this still supposes you're rolling a 5 or 6 every turn for your sacrifice.

In a summon optimized build only half of your points are coming from shanking ungors. On average 2 per turn, so one unit of 10 is fine. If you run out early it is because you rolled high so a good problem to have. Another unit can move into range if need be, or the hero can even deal the wounds to himself.

Even assuming a less optimized build of just bringing Allherd, it is 1 point default, 1 point from command ability, d3 for shanking, an average of 4 per turn. Easy 10-point summon round 3.

The pros and cons are really quite stark. I can literally think of no cons to not maxing out summoning. The caster you are giving up to do the sacrificing is still doing what he normally does even if he wasn't being held back summoning. He's in the back buffing and casting spells. So you aren't losing him from the battle by sticking him by the herdstone as he's still functioning exactly the same.

The pissant unit you are sacrificing to get the summoning would hardly be doing anything in the game either.

In exchange you get to have free monsters show up in ambush. Thats huge. Hugely more valuable than NOT going that route. Its a choice that makes itself for you, unless you want to willfully handicap yourself. This conversation reminds me of the demon players in 7th edition whfb trying to say their army wasn't that OP, just a little OP.

The only way that it would be a CON is if you didn't screen your summoning caster correctly and it gets shanked early in the game. So yeah you have to bubble screen your guys, just like a non-summoning army has to do against the alpha strike garbage that can be thrown onto the table if you aren't careful.

The only facet of this thats remotely "balanced" is that GW has opened the floodgates and other armies can do it too, though in disproportionate amounts.

Against another army spamming summoning or maxing mortal wounds, this could be an interesting game.

Against an army that is neither summoning nor spamming mortal wounds (either by choice or because the sucker is playing a force that doesn't have an updated list yet that has the ability to do either), there is no point in playing out the game. Your deck wins, next opponent please.

I've not seen a non summoning non mortal wound spam army defeat a summon spam army yet in 2.0 or even come close.

Its why for our event days we have a sudden death rule where if you summon in more than 20% of your army (in 2000 points that would be summoning in more than 400 pts) and your opponent isn't summoning that they get a sudden death victory condition to kind of make it a somewhat interesting and fun game instead of a one-sided stomp fest.