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Well, they're half again the shots compared to a Plasma Cannon or RF Plasma Gun.

They've also got range on the PG and Assault vs Heavy on the PC.

On the other hand, it's S5 vs S8. That's not a small difference.Probably worth the 50% more shots, although not worth 50% more shots plus better profile or range (depending on which we're comparing).

The real damning thing about the Dissie is that it's almost always a better option than the Brightlance, even when hunting tanks. Because D2 on 3 shots for that price is bonkers.

Similarly, the real damning thing about the Plasma Gun is it's almost always better than Melta, even when hunting tanks.

A real fix to Plas would need to fix this. Ideally, all Plas (PG, PC, Dissie, Star Cannon, Reaper Starswarm missiles, etc) should be D1. That would help bring a lot of things more closely into balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Most hilarious - they cost less too.

Don't have either codex on me ATM, but I though Plasma guns were 13ppm and Dissies were 15ppm. Obviously Dissies should be way more, but they hardly cost less. Are you referring to Plasma Cannons?

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Welcome to DakkaDakka, where the points are made up and the rules don't matter.

I like the mortal wound idea, but like many fixes for marine rules, I think it ends up favoring chaos more than not. Death Guard already do plasma pretty well. Taking a "remove from play" and turning it into a 2/3 chance to take a single wound is a pretty big change.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Most hilarious - they cost less too.

Don't have either codex on me ATM, but I though Plasma guns were 13ppm and Dissies were 15ppm. Obviously Dissies should be way more, but they hardly cost less. Are you referring to Plasma Cannons?

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I ment to say some versions even cost more and are worse but whatever. Point remains. Plasma is the only thing in the game that flat slays you when you roll a 1 to hit (or a 2 or 3 in same cases). Don't overcharge really isn't an option ether. If you aren't going to overcharge you might as well have just taken a heavy bolter.

Bharring wrote:
To be fair, Dissies are Plasma.

Yeah, if plasma was good, instead of merely adequate.

Tau Plasma is Plasma too, in case the name didn't give it away.

Is that one 'good' or 'adequate'?

Plasma Gun is one of many Plasma weapons in the game.

I'd say Tau plasma is also adequate. It's more cost effective than Imperial plasma, but less damaging.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd say Tau plasma is also adequate. It's more cost effective than Imperial plasma, but less damaging.

On a crisis suit? Hell no!

Not on a crisis suit. No. But they don't need expensive babysitters to not die.

Martel732 wrote:
Not on a crisis suit. No. But they don't need expensive babysitters to not die.

They also have a meager 1/3 chance to wound a Rhino, at Damage 1.

For reference, a BS 4+ Tau Plasma Gun (in Rapid Fire Range) has 2 shots, 1 hit, 1/3 wounds, 5/18 unsaved wounds, 5/18 damage to a Rhino.
A BS 4+ Autocannon (at any range, but standing still) has 2 shots, 1 hit, 1/2 wounds, 1/4 unsaved wounds, 1/2 damage to a Rhino.

Their Plasma is worse than an Autocannon. And Autocannons are okay. But not excellent. Just okay.

Bharring wrote:
Well, they're half again the shots compared to a Plasma Cannon or RF Plasma Gun.

They've also got range on the PG and Assault vs Heavy on the PC.

On the other hand, it's S5 vs S8. That's not a small difference.Probably worth the 50% more shots, although not worth 50% more shots plus better profile or range (depending on which we're comparing).

The real damning thing about the Dissie is that it's almost always a better option than the Brightlance, even when hunting tanks. Because D2 on 3 shots for that price is bonkers.

Similarly, the real damning thing about the Plasma Gun is it's almost always better than Melta, even when hunting tanks.

A real fix to Plas would need to fix this. Ideally, all Plas (PG, PC, Dissie, Star Cannon, Reaper Starswarm missiles, etc) should be D1. That would help bring a lot of things more closely into balance.

Yeah. This. The range is the main thing. Getting full shots at full range is the main advantage over a plasma gun. The dissie is flatly better at killing marines thanks to the extra shot, but who needs help killing marines? Against vehicles, the dissie hits twice and does about 1 wound for 2 damage. Within rapidfire range, an overcharged plasmagun hits once or twice and does about 1 wound for 2 damage. The main difference in my eyes is that the dissie can do its damage from across the board while the plasma gunner wants to get danger close.

Making dissies shorter range would might be an interesting way to close that gap. Let the dissie be more flexible and cheaper than a lance, but you have to get within, let's say, 18" to to shoot it. Or just reduce its damage to 1 so that it no longer averages comparable damage to a dark lance against vehicles. Upping the cost a little works too, but I usually prefer having weapons with niches resulting from more than just price tags.

Plasma guns are better than melta b/c melta is damn near useless. Making plasma weapons useless won't make melta better. Just put more useless weapons in the game.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not on a crisis suit. No. But they don't need expensive babysitters to not die.

They also have a meager 1/3 chance to wound a Rhino, at Damage 1.

For reference, a BS 4+ Tau Plasma Gun (in Rapid Fire Range) has 2 shots, 1 hit, 1/3 wounds, 5/18 unsaved wounds, 5/18 damage to a Rhino.
A BS 4+ Autocannon (at any range, but standing still) has 2 shots, 1 hit, 1/2 wounds, 1/4 unsaved wounds, 1/2 damage to a Rhino.

Their Plasma is worse than an Autocannon. And Autocannons are okay. But not excellent. Just okay.

You can afford a lot of Tau for the price of marine babysitters. Marines are really bad. Giving them an okay gun doesn't make the gun OP.

You can afford a lot of Marines for the price of a Crisis Suit, once you give it weapons.

Doesn't plasma come on anything else?

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't plasma come on anything else?

At discounted price more or less?

Plasma comes on more IoM platforms than I can count.

Tau, off the top of my head:
Crisis Suits
Hazard Suits
Broadsides
Commanders

It's quite a stretch to consider Tau plas anywhere near IoM plas, though. S6 D1 vs S7 D1 or S8 D2 Gets hot? It's going to take quite a lot of make-believe to argue IoM got the short end there.

Vs DE, yes, they got better. A3 36" is much better than RF1 12" or Hd3 36", although S5 D2 is worse than S8 D2 Gets Hot. It certainly wins on points.

Vs CWE Starcannon, I'm not so sure. H2 36" S6 Dd3 vs Hd3 36" S8 D2 Gets Hot. I'd give that one slightly to the Plasma Cannon.

Vs CWE Reaper Starswarm, again not so sure. Heavy 2 S5 D2 vs Heavy d3 S8 D2 Gets Hot, I'd give to the Plasma Cannon. But the Reaper Launcher + frame are cheap enough, and CWE buffs are amazing. Reapers are certainly better than PC-armed Devs.

Some other Plas is harder to compare (ML Starswarm, Plas Grenades), because they compare more to non-Plas weapons.

The biggest difference between Xenos Plasma and Human Plasma is the dual mode/gets hot. While I truly believe Plasma is the best all-round special weapon Marines (and CSM) have (that's widely available) I do think it's unfair for a 1 to outright kill a multi-wound model.
Doing only 1 or even D3 MWs is far more fair, still kills 1W models, but gives multi-wound models a chance to live.

Doing D3 MWs in a 1W model unit also has a fun side-affect of potentially killing additional models aside from the bearer, since MWs spill over. Regardless of game balance, that's plenty fluffy as an explosion that devastating might kill other models nearby

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 Galef wrote:
The biggest difference between Xenos Plasma and Human Plasma is the dual mode/gets hot. While I truly believe Plasma is the best all-round special weapon Marines (and CSM) have (that's widely available) I do think it's unfair for a 1 to outright kill a multi-wound model.
Doing only 1 or even D3 MWs is far more fair, still kills 1W models, but gives multi-wound models a chance to live.

Doing D3 MWs in a 1W model unit also has a fun side-affect of potentially killing additional models aside from the bearer, since MWs spill over. Regardless of game balance, that's plenty fluffy as an explosion that devastating might kill other models nearby

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You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

How many of those weapons kill the bearer? How many of them can't realistically be shot at -1(or higher) to hit profiles?

Tau plasma is just designed to be a cheap option right now. It is bad but it doesn't matter. Tau have access to other excellent weapons. CIB is excellent.

Even the missle pod that tau players claim is unplayable - if you put them on commanders. You get 4 2+ to hit autocannons with character protection. I take 3 of them and just crush people. I laugh at the thought of putting fusions on commanders.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

 Kcalehc wrote:
You could go a step further, and have Plasma pistols do 1 MW, PlasmaGuns do D3 MW, and Plasma Cannons doing 2D3 MW. Each clearly has a different size amount of plasma in it, the pistol cooking off is likely to only hurt its bearer, but that huge plasma chamber on the cannon is going to make a lot more mess!

I really like this idea. A lot actually.
Although GW seems to loathe 2D3 for some reason, so if this change were to happen, it would more likely be Plasma Cannons do D6 MW.
Or they could stay at D3 MWs considering Plasma Cannons have the possibility of getting more shots than Plasma guns AND potentially the -1 to hit for moving.
Given that, I'd probably just have Pistols do 1MW on a 1 and all other Imperial and Chaos Plasmas do D3 MWs.

This would kill the Berzerker Rhino tactic (Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma rushing forward, rolling a 1, blowing up and disembarking all the Berzerkers in charge range), but honestly, that's a wonky tactic anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've got a better idea - lets have IMO plasma just do mortal wounds to the enemy. Imagine that - the gun gets so hot it slays the guy shooting it but the core of a sun it just shot at something cant even 1 shot a company commander.

But that's not going to work unless you make it on a 6 to hit. But the idea of "gets hot" is that the weapon malfunctions, doesn't hit the target, and vents hot plasma all over the bearer, usually killing them
Plasma is already a GREAT weapon for it's cost. Why are we trying to make it better?

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How many Plasma Guns kill the bearer when it's fired at S7 D1?

Unless you're arguing that S7 D1 is weaker than S6 D1. Which wouldn't surprise me.

S8 D2 is an option. And so you have a 1/36 chance of killing the model (assuming a reroll - you usually have it). You do realize that Protect, Jinx, Quicken, etc all have a higher chance of killing the more expensive model? And you can choose to do less damage for less risk?

It used to be Xeno plasma was weaker (s6 vs s7), because it didn't have that risk. Now, it's still weaker (s6 vs s7), but IoM Plasma baseline also has no risk. Then they added an *even stronger* profile (S8), and gave it and many other Plasma weapons D2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd be fine with Plas gets-hot to not be so deadly - even just 1 wound (note, didn't say Mortal).

But all Plas needs to be nerfed, not just IoM Plas. They crowd out all the other weapon options.

Iom plasma is better, but marines need expensive babysitters to make it work. Or I could just soup in scions with plasma and not care.

I'm not losing my ass to marines with plasma. I'm losing my ass to reapers, dissy cannons and plasma scions.

Bharring wrote:
I'd be fine with Plas gets-hot to not be so deadly - even just 1 wound (note, didn't say Mortal).

But all Plas needs to be nerfed, not just IoM Plas. They crowd out all the other weapon options.

Crowding out other options is purely do to points costs. The other special options should be cheap than Plasma guns. Whether that involves upping Plasma or lowering the other choices is up for debate, but we can all agree the points are off.
I can at least agree that the Gets-Hot mode might be better if it merely did a Wound at AP-3 (the AP of the weapon itself)

But is stark contrast to Martel, who considers their "babysitter" an extra cost, I'd like to make the overcharge risk HIGHER because having the "babysitter" is all but assumed at this point. You need HQs, they need to be near units to not get shot. Putting them near your plasma units is no more than a slight inconvenience after that, but you already should have them in your list

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 Galef wrote:
The biggest difference between Xenos Plasma and Human Plasma is the dual mode/gets hot. While I truly believe Plasma is the best all-round special weapon Marines (and CSM) have (that's widely available) I do think it's unfair for a 1 to outright kill a multi-wound model.
Doing only 1 or even D3 MWs is far more fair, still kills 1W models, but gives multi-wound models a chance to live.

Doing D3 MWs in a 1W model unit also has a fun side-affect of potentially killing additional models aside from the bearer, since MWs spill over. Regardless of game balance, that's plenty fluffy as an explosion that devastating might kill other models nearby
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Except the "Gets Hot" isn't meant to just be the whole thing going nuclear. It's just supposed to represent something going wrong with the gun to the point it can't be operated further and the operator is considered unable to fight.

So no to Mortal Wounds.

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd be fine with Plas gets-hot to not be so deadly - even just 1 wound (note, didn't say Mortal).

But all Plas needs to be nerfed, not just IoM Plas. They crowd out all the other weapon options.

Crowding out other options is purely do to points costs. The other special options should be cheap than Plasma guns. Whether that involves upping Plasma or lowering the other choices is up for debate, but we can all agree the points are off.
I can at least agree that the Gets-Hot mode might be better if it merely did a Wound at AP-3 (the AP of the weapon itself)

But is stark contrast to Martel, who considers their "babysitter" an extra cost, I'd like to make the overcharge risk HIGHER because having the "babysitter" is all but assumed at this point. You need HQs, they need to be near units to not get shot. Putting them near your plasma units is no more than a slight inconvenience after that, but you already should have them in your list

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For those of us who don't want to castle gunline, the babysitter tax is real. Foot captains suck as a model, too.


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Bharring wrote:
How many Plasma Guns kill the bearer when it's fired at S7 D1?

Unless you're arguing that S7 D1 is weaker than S6 D1. Which wouldn't surprise me.

S8 D2 is an option. And so you have a 1/36 chance of killing the model (assuming a reroll - you usually have it). You do realize that Protect, Jinx, Quicken, etc all have a higher chance of killing the more expensive model? And you can choose to do less damage for less risk?

It used to be Xeno plasma was weaker (s6 vs s7), because it didn't have that risk. Now, it's still weaker (s6 vs s7), but IoM Plasma baseline also has no risk. Then they added an *even stronger* profile (S8), and gave it and many other Plasma weapons D2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd be fine with Plas gets-hot to not be so deadly - even just 1 wound (note, didn't say Mortal).

But all Plas needs to be nerfed, not just IoM Plas. They crowd out all the other weapon options.

Rather than nerfing, make the other options playable.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The biggest difference between Xenos Plasma and Human Plasma is the dual mode/gets hot. While I truly believe Plasma is the best all-round special weapon Marines (and CSM) have (that's widely available) I do think it's unfair for a 1 to outright kill a multi-wound model.
Doing only 1 or even D3 MWs is far more fair, still kills 1W models, but gives multi-wound models a chance to live.

Doing D3 MWs in a 1W model unit also has a fun side-affect of potentially killing additional models aside from the bearer, since MWs spill over. Regardless of game balance, that's plenty fluffy as an explosion that devastating might kill other models nearby
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Except the "Gets Hot" isn't meant to just be the whole thing going nuclear. It's just supposed to represent something going wrong with the gun to the point it can't be operated further and the operator is considered unable to fight.

So no to Mortal Wounds.

MWs are far better than "remove the model" as it is now, especially as it doesn't outright remove large multi-wound models. Although I did say above that doing a wound at the AP of the gun would probably be a better way. If the model "dies" it's not different than now, but if it makes a saving throw, that can represent the gun only temporarily malfunctioning and getting back to normal in the next turn.

Martel732 wrote:
For those of us who don't want to castle gunline, the babysitter tax is real. Foot captains suck as a model, too.

I wasn't suggesting gunline castles or Foot captains. Jump packs, bikes and teleporting Terminator captains exist.
It is certainly fine if you don't like those options, but the options are indeed there and the only reason not to take them is because you what different buffs from different HQs.
If so, than, yeah, Plasma is not for you.

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I think some of it is the thought that if a Plasma Gun blows up in your face, you probably aren't going to be able to shoot it at people next turn. But vehicles lost Weapon Destroyed, and infantry never had it. I'm sure they'd rather remove the model than remove the weapon from the model.

The simplest case I think would running psykers over captains. I just don't think it's fair to assume rerolls when those rerolls arent built in.

IOM plasma is better than tau plasma - it makes no sense. Tau have CIB though - which is MUCH better than plasma.