Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Karhedron wrote:

godking wrote:

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the Emperor couldn't just unleash the Warhounds because Nuceria had accepted Compliance. I can't remember if that was somewhere official or just a fan theory. The other alternative is that after helping Mortarion overthrow his tyrant and getting nothing but resentment in return, the Big E couldn't be bothered to pander to Angron's pride.

Mortarian is a differant case all together, a lot of the traitor primarchs I can have SOME sympathy for, Morty I've NEVER been able to sympathize with.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars very nearly joined Horus when they heard about it. So that's one legion that was certainly 'bothered'.

Sanguinius and the blood angels almost did too.

I have always wondered why Russ was able to get away with what happened on Prospero and not get (at the very least) seriously sanctioned for it. But that argument has been beaten to death in various other threads and I don't want to rehash it here.

BrianDavion wrote:
Mortarian is a differant case all together, a lot of the traitor primarchs I can have SOME sympathy for, Morty I've NEVER been able to sympathize with.

Agreed, Mortarion is actually one of the few traitors that I have almost zero sympathy for. He was angry at himself for not being strong enough to take out his adoptive father and angry at the emperor for stepping in and doing it for him, even if it saved his life. He took that anger out on everyone around him, including his own legion. He also blamed all psykers for being evil despite only ever seeing one bad one, and then turns around in the Horus heresy and embraces service to the dark gods and the psychic powers that come with it for some reason.

w1zard 764338 10166024 nul wrote: and embraces service to the dark gods and the psychic powers that come with it for some reason.

Well, his hand was kinda forced here. If he hadn't been becalmed in the warp and the Destroyer released on the Death Guard then I think Mortarion might have not become a slave to Nurgle, not that he had much choice in the matter. He had been singled out by the Grandfather since the scattering and would have been embraced eventually. But I think if given the choice then he would not have gone over. He was one of the Primarchs that was proud of his legion not being tainted by Chaos, or at least appearing as such on the outside. Join or die isn't much of a choice.

But yeah, I don't have much sympathy for Mortarion either. His wasn't because of any ill deed done by the Emperor.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This isn't that hard to show. What was the primary cause of Lorgar falling was the Emperor, rather than explain what the Chaos Gods are and his plan to try and starve them out instead lets Lorgar go deep down the religious rabbit hole before rebuking and embarrassing him, while still not explaining why he was doing any of this. He tried to pass off demons as weird xenos when chaos's nature and power is something completely different than that.

Much of Horus's betray comes from his feelings of being abandoned and feeling he will be discarded at the end of the crusades. Those mostly stem from the Emperor bailing on him to work on the webway and again, not explaining what he was doing. Magnus also probably would not have destroyed the most important project for man kinds future if he knew about it.

It's not pampering them, it's called not being a CW show and keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

Not in everycase, the Emperor treated Horus with favouritism, he never fethed him over and yet Horus still turned.

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

"The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him." I don't know what you mean by this.

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point.

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

Which was a short time after he was found

The emperor knew the Nails would kill Angron but he decided to use Angron for as long as he could.

I don't know what you mean by this.

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

The Emperor abducting Angron was the main reason for Angron's hatred of the emperor this is clearly explained in Betrayer.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point

He knew he just did'nt care as long as he could use Angron for his own ends.

Angron turned for freedom:

Angron had laughed, the sound rich and true. ‘Such pretty lies! We fight for the same reasons men
have always fought: for land, for resources, for wealth and for bodies to feed into the grinders of
industry. We fight to silence anyone that dares draw breath and whisper a different opinion from ours.
We fight because the Emperor wants every world in his hands. All he knows is slavery, painted in the
inoffensive cloak of compliance. The very notion of freedom is a horror to him.’
‘Traitor,’ Russ hissed.
Angron stood tall, still grinning. ‘Do we give choices to those we slaughter? A true choice? Or do
we broadcast that they must throw their weapons into the fires of peace and bow down, faces pushed
into the mud like beggars, thanking us for the culture we force upon them? We offer them compliance
or we offer them death. How am I a traitor, wolfling? I fight as you fight, as loyal as you are. I do the
tyrant’s bidding.’
‘We offer them freedom.’ Russ spoke through clenched teeth, the moon bright in his eyes. ‘You are
mutilating your own sons and stealing their minds – now you preach of the Emperor’s tyranny? Are
you lost so far in your delusions?’
Angron’s smile faltered, fading away. His face seemed slack, his eyes staring past Russ. Defeat
was etched upon features still twitching in pain.
‘You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedom matches the Emperor’s will. For each
time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium’s advance, there comes another time when
I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole
civilisations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new
worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or
recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery.’
‘Angron…’ Russ snarled.
‘Be silent! You have given your threats, dog. Now hear me. Listen to another hound barking, for
once.’ - Betrayer.

It was more than just petty hatred for the Emperor.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This isn't that hard to show. What was the primary cause of Lorgar falling was the Emperor, rather than explain what the Chaos Gods are and his plan to try and starve them out instead lets Lorgar go deep down the religious rabbit hole before rebuking and embarrassing him, while still not explaining why he was doing any of this. He tried to pass off demons as weird xenos when chaos's nature and power is something completely different than that.

Much of Horus's betray comes from his feelings of being abandoned and feeling he will be discarded at the end of the crusades. Those mostly stem from the Emperor bailing on him to work on the webway and again, not explaining what he was doing. Magnus also probably would not have destroyed the most important project for man kinds future if he knew about it.

It's not pampering them, it's called not being a CW show and keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

Not in everycase, the Emperor treated Horus with favouritism, he never fethed him over and yet Horus still turned.

Yes Horus thought that he was the favorite son, The Emperor did a good job of making him think that and even made him the Warmaster. Then he left with no real explanation, with held a ton of info from Horus, and left it vague about what the future held for the Primarchs and Space Marines. He didn't F Horus over but he really underestimated abandoning him for a secret project would do to his psyche. Add in some warp inflicted wounds and manipulation by the Chaos Gods and Horus falls. If the Emperor had been honest about the webway project with Horus, then most of that manipulation would likely fall flat.

And of the traitor primarchs horus was unique, even Horus has noted in character on at least one occasion that all the primarchs who turned with him are the broken ones.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
This isn't that hard to show. What was the primary cause of Lorgar falling was the Emperor, rather than explain what the Chaos Gods are and his plan to try and starve them out instead lets Lorgar go deep down the religious rabbit hole before rebuking and embarrassing him, while still not explaining why he was doing any of this. He tried to pass off demons as weird xenos when chaos's nature and power is something completely different than that.

Much of Horus's betray comes from his feelings of being abandoned and feeling he will be discarded at the end of the crusades. Those mostly stem from the Emperor bailing on him to work on the webway and again, not explaining what he was doing. Magnus also probably would not have destroyed the most important project for man kinds future if he knew about it.

It's not pampering them, it's called not being a CW show and keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

Not in everycase, the Emperor treated Horus with favouritism, he never fethed him over and yet Horus still turned.

Yes Horus thought that he was the favorite son, The Emperor did a good job of making him think that and even made him the Warmaster. Then he left with no real explanation, with held a ton of info from Horus, and left it vague about what the future held for the Primarchs and Space Marines. He didn't F Horus over but he really underestimated abandoning him for a secret project would do to his psyche. Add in some warp inflicted wounds and manipulation by the Chaos Gods and Horus falls. If the Emperor had been honest about the webway project with Horus, then most of that manipulation would likely fall flat.

Left with no real explanation, well boo hoo. How fragile do you think the Primarchs are?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
And of the traitor primarchs horus was unique, even Horus has noted in character on at least one occasion that all the primarchs who turned with him are the broken ones.

Yeah but it proves he isn't the cause, Chaos had their claws in them. The Daemon that possessed Fulgrim even said, that he'd never have turned from the Emperor without his machinations. Fulgrim is another case who never had a reason to turn from the Emperor.

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

This. Denial is a powerful force and his biggest flaw was arrogance - believing what he wanted to be true to be actually true.

Prospero Burns was a really good book too, y'all should read that if you haven't.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

"The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him." I don't know what you mean by this.

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point.

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

Which was a short time after he was found

The emperor knew the Nails would kill Angron but he decided to use Angron for as long as he could.

I don't know what you mean by this.

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

The Emperor abducting Angron was the main reason for Angron's hatred of the emperor this is clearly explained in Betrayer.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point

He knew he just did'nt care as long as he could use Angron for his own ends.

Angron turned for freedom:

Angron had laughed, the sound rich and true. ‘Such pretty lies! We fight for the same reasons men
have always fought: for land, for resources, for wealth and for bodies to feed into the grinders of
industry. We fight to silence anyone that dares draw breath and whisper a different opinion from ours.
We fight because the Emperor wants every world in his hands. All he knows is slavery, painted in the
inoffensive cloak of compliance. The very notion of freedom is a horror to him.’
‘Traitor,’ Russ hissed.
Angron stood tall, still grinning. ‘Do we give choices to those we slaughter? A true choice? Or do
we broadcast that they must throw their weapons into the fires of peace and bow down, faces pushed
into the mud like beggars, thanking us for the culture we force upon them? We offer them compliance
or we offer them death. How am I a traitor, wolfling? I fight as you fight, as loyal as you are. I do the
tyrant’s bidding.’
‘We offer them freedom.’ Russ spoke through clenched teeth, the moon bright in his eyes. ‘You are
mutilating your own sons and stealing their minds – now you preach of the Emperor’s tyranny? Are
you lost so far in your delusions?’
Angron’s smile faltered, fading away. His face seemed slack, his eyes staring past Russ. Defeat
was etched upon features still twitching in pain.
‘You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedom matches the Emperor’s will. For each
time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium’s advance, there comes another time when
I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole
civilisations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new
worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or
recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery.’
‘Angron…’ Russ snarled.
‘Be silent! You have given your threats, dog. Now hear me. Listen to another hound barking, for
once.’ - Betrayer.

It was more than just petty hatred for the Emperor.

Yes i recently reread betrayer as well.

Yes freedom was one of the reasons for angrons turning but the Emperor represented just another slave master to Angron.

Angron hated the emperor for denying him his death with his brothers and sisters on Nuceria and for for denying him freedom.

Angron was completely correct in his rebuttal to Leman.

He was damaged by the Nails but he was never a fool and never drank the emperors Kool aid.

He was always going to rebel the horus heresy just sped it up a little.

 Karhedron wrote:
The impression given in Mom is of a leader whose plans have been disrupted and is struggling to make the best of a bad situation.

This is the simplest and most sensical answer. It's also reasonable to think that the Emperor may have already fallen behind schedule thanks to the scattering and round up. So he took the tools that he actually had -- not the ones he wanted to have -- and deployed them as best as he could. Angron, Magnus, Curze etc. were all still highly useful for a galactic conquest.

 Karhedron wrote:

godking wrote:

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the Emperor couldn't just unleash the Warhounds because Nuceria had accepted Compliance. I can't remember if that was somewhere official or just a fan theory. The other alternative is that after helping Mortarion overthrow his tyrant and getting nothing but resentment in return, the Big E couldn't be bothered to pander to Angron's pride.

Mortarion and Angron where two different people.

Angron actually cared for his fellow rebels and if the emperor had saved them Angron might have resented it for a short while but would get over it.

Mortarion was the most shortsighted and least intelligent of the primarchs.

Angron damaged by the Nails as as he was occassionally showed more intelligence and insight them Mortarion ever did.

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Daemon speaking for Chaos said itself that they used the warp storms to hide what was happening on Istavaan from the Emperor. Plus the Emperor was stronger then than he is on the throne, he could power the astronomican and direct it himself while fighting at the head of the GC, so Chaos obviously knew why they needed to blind him. Though maybe they were just being prudent. Also due to Nikaea you'd think he'd want to keep tabs on Magnus.

A big part of the Emperor's screw up in the HH is down to him assuming the Primarchs would obey him and trust him without question. That's why I say he probably didn't think he needed to keep tabs on Magnus. He'd already made his decree, and even explained the reasons why. To the Emperor that always seems to be enough. He doesn't seem to understand character flaws like Magnus's all-consuming thirst for knowledge.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Corennus wrote:
REASON:

PLOT ARMOUR

How do you mean?

The HH series isn't exactly a masterpiece of plotting and forethought. Not surprising given how little info there was about it before the novels started. Things tend to happen because they need to happen, hence the plot armour. Even if it was logical and plausible that the Emperor could have found out what Magnus was up to, he needs to not do that in order for the plot to work.

The Emperor without doubt new of their flaws, he just didn't know to the extent that those flaws would lead. You have to understand that the Emperor cannot see all of the future, people expect too much out of him, how was he supposed to know that his sounds would end up turning to chaos, you sound like he should have known, why? He obviously didn't think they Primarchs would obey him as the lost Primarchs obviously didn't. People act like the Emperor is omnipotent and omniscient, thinking that he should know everything about Chaos and know every possibility from his actions. The only thing he was guilty of in my opinion is his treatment of Lorgar, that was unnecessary. Nikaea he was right to do that. If anything he treated the Primarchs too well, wanting to apprehend Magnus and wanting to bring Horus back from Chaos.

The emperor treated the primarchs too well ?

You mean like violently tearing Angron from his slave army leaving them to die ?

Knowing that this would create huge problems later when there where multiple other actions he could have taken ?

Angron has a legitimate beef with the Emperor perhaps the only traitor Primarch to do so ?

Basically letting a violent physchopath in Kurze run free ?

Letting Lorgar crusade for 100 years believing the Empeor a god and then at Monarchia setting an "example" ?

Not really, the Emperor wouldn't have known how far Angron had fallen due to the butchers nails. It was fethed up, but only from Angrons perspective. Plus Angrons choice in dying with his brothers and sisters was two fold, he wanted the honour, but Angron was also suicidal because of his butchers nails. He isn't the most rational fellow. Lorgar is the only one the Emperor wronged and intentionally wronged, though Lorgar did have to be sanctioned, he wasn't being any useful part of the crusade. Did he go too far, yes but I have little sympathy for Lorgar after how he treated his own sons.

The emperor knew that the nails would eventually kill Angron and the emperor knew that they could not be removed and that they would degrade Angron over time.

This is a point mentioned in multiple novels

The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him.

The emperor made the worst choice out of multiple options and practically guaranteed that Angron would turn on him.

Angron was rational when the Nails allowed him to be .

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

"The emperor could have let Angron die and have him join the 2 other forgotten primarchs or he he could have let Angrons own Legion help him." I don't know what you mean by this.

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point.

No, the Emperor didn't know that till he examined Angron in the Lab in the Sanctum Imperialis.

Which was a short time after he was found

The emperor knew the Nails would kill Angron but he decided to use Angron for as long as he could.

I don't know what you mean by this.

The emperor had Angrons Legion with him when he found Angron on Nuceria he could have made them make planet fall and help Angron or he could have let Angron die as he wanted too both better choices then forcibly abducting Angron and guaranteeing that Angron would rebel

He never made the worst choice. Angron didn't turn because of the Emperor, it might have been a small part of why, but he turned because he wanted freedom, to fight and fight the way he wanted without having Russ to come and tell him off.

The Emperor abducting Angron was the main reason for Angron's hatred of the emperor this is clearly explained in Betrayer.

Yeah but the Emperor didn't realise how irrational he could be is the point

He knew he just did'nt care as long as he could use Angron for his own ends.

Angron turned for freedom:

Angron had laughed, the sound rich and true. ‘Such pretty lies! We fight for the same reasons men
have always fought: for land, for resources, for wealth and for bodies to feed into the grinders of
industry. We fight to silence anyone that dares draw breath and whisper a different opinion from ours.
We fight because the Emperor wants every world in his hands. All he knows is slavery, painted in the
inoffensive cloak of compliance. The very notion of freedom is a horror to him.’
‘Traitor,’ Russ hissed.
Angron stood tall, still grinning. ‘Do we give choices to those we slaughter? A true choice? Or do
we broadcast that they must throw their weapons into the fires of peace and bow down, faces pushed
into the mud like beggars, thanking us for the culture we force upon them? We offer them compliance
or we offer them death. How am I a traitor, wolfling? I fight as you fight, as loyal as you are. I do the
tyrant’s bidding.’
‘We offer them freedom.’ Russ spoke through clenched teeth, the moon bright in his eyes. ‘You are
mutilating your own sons and stealing their minds – now you preach of the Emperor’s tyranny? Are
you lost so far in your delusions?’
Angron’s smile faltered, fading away. His face seemed slack, his eyes staring past Russ. Defeat
was etched upon features still twitching in pain.
‘You are free, Leman Russ of Fenris, because your freedom matches the Emperor’s will. For each
time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium’s advance, there comes another time when
I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole
civilisations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new
worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or
recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery.’
‘Angron…’ Russ snarled.
‘Be silent! You have given your threats, dog. Now hear me. Listen to another hound barking, for
once.’ - Betrayer.

It was more than just petty hatred for the Emperor.

Yes i recently reread betrayer as well.

Yes freedom was one of the reasons for angrons turning but the Emperor represented just another slave master to Angron.

Angron hated the emperor for denying him his death with his brothers and sisters on Nuceria and for for denying him freedom.

Angron was completely correct in his rebuttal to Leman.

He was damaged by the Nails but he was never a fool and never drank the emperors Kool aid.

He was always going to rebel the horus heresy just sped it up a little.

I haven't reread Betrayer in ages.

Nowhere does it even hint that Angron did it because of Nuceria, that only explained his hatred for the Emperor.

I never said Angron wasn't correct in his rebuttal to Leman.

I never said Angron was a fool.

Yes he was always going to turn but because it provided him his freedom to wage war as he wanted.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Yes Horus thought that he was the favorite son, The Emperor did a good job of making him think that and even made him the Warmaster. Then he left with no real explanation, with held a ton of info from Horus, and left it vague about what the future held for the Primarchs and Space Marines. He didn't F Horus over but he really underestimated abandoning him for a secret project would do to his psyche. Add in some warp inflicted wounds and manipulation by the Chaos Gods and Horus falls. If the Emperor had been honest about the webway project with Horus, then most of that manipulation would likely fall flat.

Left with no real explanation, well boo hoo. How fragile do you think the Primarchs are?

Apparently fragile enough to start the Heresy over it. The lack of explanation form the Emperor, combined with a feeling of being abandoned to get on with things in his absence were major contributors to allowing Chaos to get their hooks into Horus.

It annoys me no end how they are portraying the primarchs and the heresey, it’s become so much about emo kids and their daddy issues. It’s one dimensional in spite of all the complexity of it. It’s a shame. Loses the character of the primarchs. Could’ve been handled better.

Andykp wrote:
It annoys me no end how they are portraying the primarchs and the heresey, it’s become so much about emo kids and their daddy issues. It’s one dimensional in spite of all the complexity of it. It’s a shame. Loses the character of the primarchs. Could’ve been handled better.

I don't look at the primarchs are complex characters so much as I view them as greek gods and in that regard they're done about right. larger then life in both their virtues and their follies

Yes they are each a very stereo typical trope but the expanded history in the black library books was a chance to flesh them out and make them interesting characters. But instead they have made them into upset pouty kids mad at their dad. Their flaws and follies are all being passed off as a result of their daddy issues. I think they could have done more by writing less, a book per primarch and ten or so books telling the story, but that wouldn’t have made as much money for them. Really focus in on each one and make him interesting. Each have their own deeper issues for choosing which side they did and acting as they did. I know there are differences but I don’t think they have been used enough.

The Emperor could never see Magnus planning to turn traitor because he never really was.
Magnus still thought himself loyal until the moment Russ broke his back but he was playing with powers that he didn’t fully understand and thinking he had it under control, making bargains with a being far more cunning than himself and far more powerful than he realised for the sake of his legion.