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To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

So you want a rule that practically makes reanimation protocols rolls automatic? How about no?

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

That doesn't make sense thematically though. Why would you suddenly just not shoot at a unit unless its the closest?
It would more sense if they got a bonus to their RP rolls the more models that are missing.

Xenomancers wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

So you want a rule that practically makes reanimation protocols rolls automatic? How about no?

Nothing makes it automatic, because if already targeting it, you wouldn't untarget the unit, the idea is you would have to aim to over kill it or reposition yourself to take effective aim.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

That doesn't make sense thematically though. Why would you suddenly just not shoot at a unit unless its the closest?
It would more sense if they got a bonus to their RP rolls the more models that are missing.

If you think of hoards of robots, how can you not see it being thematically right them being able to hid within the ranks of the legion?

Though on your suggestion, could work if you say lower the units max size to increase RP of the remaining models (as they use other models parts) but it would still come down to the problem of the whole unit being wiped out.

Finishing off units becomes impossible with your method.

I think attaching the resurrection of destroyed units to Resurrection Orbs would be the best way of implementing a fix to Reanimation Protocols without having to make major changes. It would still be scalable by having more orbs in higher points games, would limit it's use as each orb can only be used once per game, can be limited to proximity of the destroyed unit, give the orb itself enough of a use to actually see use on the tabletop, still provide counterplay options to armies that can (such as with snipers) to eliminate the Orb carrier, and it would be a very fluffy method of implementing the change. As to the specifics, I'm not entirely sure how to do that.

I think that it should be the current base rule, but it happens at the end of each player's turn.

That places it after moral so your unit might still lose unrecoverable units.

It triggers twice as often to give the feel that it is happening more in "real time."

Then the resurrection orb should be changed to allow a once per game effect that happens when an infantry unit with reanimation protocol within 6" loses it's last model.

With the Relic Orb allowing for reanimation protocol for losses from moral in an infantry unit within 6".

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gauss already auto-wounds vehicles on a six, same as everyone else's weapons.
Unless you mean it ignores armor or something.

Sorry I meant like a mortal wound on a 6, or an additional damage on a 6. Something to do more than just scratch the paint.

And then they just go back to struggling against any monstrous creature. Nice job.

 Draco765 wrote:
I think that it should be the current base rule, but it happens at the end of each player's turn.

That places it after moral so your unit might still lose unrecoverable units.

It triggers twice as often to give the feel that it is happening more in "real time."

Then the resurrection orb should be changed to allow a once per game effect that happens when an infantry unit with reanimation protocol within 6" loses it's last model.

With the Relic Orb allowing for reanimation protocol for losses from moral in an infantry unit within 6".

I wouldn't have any problem with it taking place before each morale phase, for either player, as long as all models that fail RP are then immediately removed from play. That's a pretty minor boost, but helps a little.

Personally I like the idea of binding the ability to recover a lost unit to a Monolith/Night Scythe or a Canoptek Spider. That way, it's possible but only if you build a list capable of it, and it gives extra utility to some mostly overlooked units.

Necrons are supposed to Phase Out and return to the Tomb World if destroyed and unable to reanimate. So if the last model in a unit is reduced to 0 wounds, you could pay CP to have that model Phase Out before destruction. It would remain on the Tomb World where you could make Reanimation Protocol rolls and could then be redeployed from an Invasion Beam or Eternity Gate next turn.

Having this as an opportunity that you do have to pay for (in points and CP) would maintain balance, be thematic and would present tactical dilemmas for an opponent in terms of targeting. It could also still be countered if the Monolith/Night Scythe is destroyed.

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

Actually, playing a lot of ITC tournemant, i can say that what you want already exist! Deploy 20 warriors, but hide 5 inside of a building that's hard to get LoS to. Now your opponent has to wipe the squad, and if he doesn't, you try to make sure the only warriors left are the ones inside the building that can't be targetted. One time I even purposefully reroll a passed armour save to kill an extra warrior that would have let the rest of the squad be targetted by 10 DA hellblasters. Better lose one guy than the whole squad, especially if half comes back with a cryptek!

(of course, guard doesn't care about such things, and will just blast you anyway, but that's the cons of playings against guards...)

VoidSempai wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

Actually, playing a lot of ITC tournemant, i can say that what you want already exist! Deploy 20 warriors, but hide 5 inside of a building that's hard to get LoS to. Now your opponent has to wipe the squad, and if he doesn't, you try to make sure the only warriors left are the ones inside the building that can't be targetted. One time I even purposefully reroll a passed armour save to kill an extra warrior that would have let the rest of the squad be targetted by 10 DA hellblasters. Better lose one guy than the whole squad, especially if half comes back with a cryptek!

(of course, guard doesn't care about such things, and will just blast you anyway, but that's the cons of playings against guards...)

Mortars have d6 shots.
That's 3.5 on average, which turns into...

1.75 htis (2.04 if Cadian)
.88 (1.02) wounds
.29 (.34) unsaved (assuming cover, since you're in a building and Mortars don't ignore cover)

So, to kill the last five, you'd need...

17 Mortars. 14, if they're Cadian.

Of course, Basilisks exist, but I'd think you'd be quite happy if they're firing Basilisks at Warriors.

 JNAProductions wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
To be fair, the only way i can think of creating a rule to improve RP while still being able to be countered would be

"Silver Legion
While a unit with reanimation protocols is 75% below starting strength, the unit can not be targeted unless it is the closest enemy unit."

This can give tactical positioning to try and keep valuable units alive, while an overy kill volley would still destroy the whole unit.

Actually, playing a lot of ITC tournemant, i can say that what you want already exist! Deploy 20 warriors, but hide 5 inside of a building that's hard to get LoS to. Now your opponent has to wipe the squad, and if he doesn't, you try to make sure the only warriors left are the ones inside the building that can't be targetted. One time I even purposefully reroll a passed armour save to kill an extra warrior that would have let the rest of the squad be targetted by 10 DA hellblasters. Better lose one guy than the whole squad, especially if half comes back with a cryptek!

(of course, guard doesn't care about such things, and will just blast you anyway, but that's the cons of playings against guards...)

Mortars have d6 shots.
That's 3.5 on average, which turns into...

1.75 htis (2.04 if Cadian)
.88 (1.02) wounds
.29 (.34) unsaved (assuming cover, since you're in a building and Mortars don't ignore cover)

So, to kill the last five, you'd need...

17 Mortars. 14, if they're Cadian.

Of course, Basilisks exist, but I'd think you'd be quite happy if they're firing Basilisks at Warriors.

all true and I definitly agree with you! If they kill 5 warriors with basilisk while ignoring the 6 destroyers, I couldn't be happier .

Just pointing out the difference in that the proposed rule ''Silver legion'' doesn't have a 'lot' of counterplay, while the ITC ruling for ruins still let you do the same thing in principle, but some unit will not care.

The main problem of RP atm is the necron player’s lack of control over it. The enemy can wipe units and completely negate it. Hence, RP needs to be reactive... How about simply changing the timing clause from “at the beginning of the movement phase” (RP), “after RP is used” (orb), “at the end of the movement phase” (ghost ark) to “once per battle round” (meaning at ANY point in the battle round). That way we, the necron players, can choose when to use it and for instance save a unit that is being focused down. Such a change to base RP should not be OP, as the enemy still has the chance to wipe the unit after we used it at some point in their shooting phase, but at least we had a chance to use the ability for which we pay pts for. Orbs and ghost arks would of course improve this ability a lot, but there is quite a pt price tag attached to them, so it shouldn’t be OP either. What do you think?
As to bringing an entire unit back from the dead with CP or via Monolith or whatever. I am not a big fan of such mechanics in general, but since “half”(exaggeration) the other codices get this ability, so should the one faction that is truly known for returning from the dead…. NECRONS….

This is why in the other Necron wishlist thread I proposed the following:

The Resurrection Orb is a one use item which allows you to use the item, and immediately roll reanimation protocols for any unit within 6 inches of the bearer with a +1 bonus.

All the sudden this trash item becomes nearly a must-take, allowing you to roll RP in any phase.

I absolutely agree yes. However, since that discussion in the other threat I've been thinking about it and just believe that only allowing it on the orb may not be enough to make us competitive. Hence, my suggestion above.
I don't see why RP has to be bound to the movement phase, be it at the start or the end of it. Every other save can also/has to be taken during the enemy turn, so why not RP. Heck... RP in 7th was during the enemy turn.
Anyway, I hope this doesn’t remain on the wishlist for the entire edition, but fear it will.

I think RP should be as-is, with the following addendum:

"Immediately after a unit with this rule is completely destroyed for the first time, place a token within 1" of the last model to be removed just prior to removing it. This token is ignored for all game purposes until the Necron player rolls for RPs in their following turn, at which time it is treated as the last remaining model and RP rolls can be made for the entire unit, placing them in coherency with the token, then remove the token.
If the unit is completely destroyed for a second time, no token can be placed"

-

Since RP encourages focusing down a unit, what if all units with RP gained an ability that penalizes focusing down one unit at a time?

Give them all a variant on the Ork Boyz Green Tide or Gretchin Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers abilities where they get a bonus if there's more than X models left in the unit. Call it "Networked" and flavor it as the Necrons becoming more efficient when there's more of them working together.

Since most units specialise as melee or ranged you could even make the bonus different depending on the unit. Melee could get +1A as they synchronize their attacks while ranged gets reroll failed wound rolls as they focus their shots, etc.

Threshold for the bonus probably needs to be experimented with, but I'd guess about 80% of max unit size would be a good start. That way the opponent has the hard decision of wiping a unit to prevent RP, or spreading around the damage to turn off this bonus.

What about:

1CP - We Aren't Dead Yet:
Immediately after removing the last model of a unit with RP from the board, you may roll RP for that unit. You may roll for the last model as well.

This makes RP a lot more powerful, but is limited to once per phase, and costs CP. Importantly, the opponent can still focus down that squad in that phase, if they have the remaining firepower.

Bharring wrote:
What about:

1CP - We Aren't Dead Yet:
Immediately after removing the last model of a unit with RP from the board, you may roll RP for that unit. You may roll for the last model as well.

This makes RP a lot more powerful, but is limited to once per phase, and costs CP. Importantly, the opponent can still focus down that squad in that phase, if they have the remaining firepower.

I mean, i certainly like the idea behind this, certainly. If your dice are hot, you can bring back substantial parts of a unit.
However, I could see folks get very, very salty about it. It might need to be either more CP, or at a -1 modifier (so, base 6s, or otherwise 2cp i think)