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Voss wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
But, but...it's 1st Edition Rogue Trader. How dare you sully it's good name!

.

I like RT. But a lot of the fluff was 'insert wacky stuff from 2000 AD comics into Dune' and call it a day.
Growth of the company meant working through all bits littering the shop floor and creating something reasonably coherent out of it, and abandoning things that didn't work (Sensei) or they couldn't figure out how to make work (Squats, by their own admission).

Part of the reason the Sensei didn't work is they explicitly set up an end game where the Emepror is restored, whole and absolutely an incarnate deity wandering around making everything better.... Which negates the tone, themes and even the setting altogether.

QFT. I'm still wondering why Carlos Ezquerra isn't credited in every book for providing inspiration.

That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

A simpler explanation would be that GW abandoned the idea simply because there's already a lot to manage. They never really had a place on the tabletop.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Voss wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
But, but...it's 1st Edition Rogue Trader. How dare you sully it's good name!

.

I like RT. But a lot of the fluff was 'insert wacky stuff from 2000 AD comics into Dune' and call it a day.
Growth of the company meant working through all bits littering the shop floor and creating something reasonably coherent out of it, and abandoning things that didn't work (Sensei) or they couldn't figure out how to make work (Squats, by their own admission).

Part of the reason the Sensei didn't work is they explicitly set up an end game where the Emepror is restored, whole and absolutely an incarnate deity wandering around making everything better.... Which negates the tone, themes and even the setting altogether.

QFT. I'm still wondering why Carlos Ezquerra isn't credited in every book for providing inspiration.

That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

A simpler explanation would be that GW abandoned the idea simply because there's already a lot to manage. They never really had a place on the tabletop.

proably the same reason every fantasy novel ever written doesn't have a page dedicated to stating that Tolkein was an inspiration

 techsoldaten wrote:

That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

A simpler explanation would be that GW abandoned the idea simply because there's already a lot to manage. They never really had a place on the tabletop.

I don't think it is a question of volume to manage. GW are happy to chuck new ideas in there such as Necrons, C'tan, Tau, Dark Eldar etc. I think that after the Inquisition War trilogy, there was not really much more that could be done with the Sensei fluff. We know about as much about the Starchild as any in-universe characters. There is not a lot more they can do with the Starchild without either radically changing the setting or simply repeating the fluff in Draco.

I think GW have taken the approach to this that Star Wars have taken with the old EU stuff. It only becomes non-Canon when they explicitly contradict it but it is no longer relevant to current fluff.

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

I'm surprised people would believe the Inquisition, but most or all of them don't know it was the Inquisition who said that.

The Sensei were first introduced in 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

"I love X" doesn't add any weight to it.

marriage is an institution of love. After marriage the weight piles on. Ergo you are mistaken.

The way to look at the sensei and illuminati in current era 40k is as a group of potentially dangerous conspiracy theory nuts who may be right or wrong but it doesn’t matter as they can’t ever be allowed to succeed. They are a plot handle at best.

I personally like the idea that they could save humanity and restore the star child etc but the IoM can’t allow it because they think they are trying to kill the emperor. It’s a very 40k paradox. More likely they are nuts but good to have around. But take none of it as gospel.

 techsoldaten wrote:


That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

I think so. Having a pack of friendship-is-magic immortals immune to the major threat of the setting by fiat makes for a weird turn to everything, especially if they can be Voltron'd together to form an new uber Emperor, which based on the Starchild fluff is another superhappy being (with all the powers of the chaos gods and none of the drawbacks to worshippers, if the rewards table is any indication). Since the point of the setting is the 'only war' theme, this is pretty hard departure.

Voss wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

I think so. Having a pack of friendship-is-magic immortals immune to the major threat of the setting by fiat makes for a weird turn to everything, especially if they can be Voltron'd together to form an new uber Emperor, which based on the Starchild fluff is another superhappy being (with all the powers of the chaos gods and none of the drawbacks to worshippers, if the rewards table is any indication). Since the point of the setting is the 'only war' theme, this is pretty hard departure.

The way you put it, sounds like an opportunity for GW to lift some Care Bears IP and fit it into the fluff.

Andykp wrote:
They always hunted the sensei and illuminati but didn’t think they were tzeentch cult. They hunted them because they wanted to kill what they consider the emperor but the illuminati consider a shackle stopping the star child being reborn.

The Inquisition suspected and thought the Sensei were probably part of a Chaos cult, as the sequel to Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness says when discussing the Table Top. The Inquisition thought the Sensei were "If not actually in lague with the forces of Chaos, are severely weakening the bulwark which the Imperium has set itself against."


So the Inquisition's word does not mean crap. They have always been that way.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/9893and0zk1po368/images/187-ce03354169.jpg

Here it is.

Hope I am not doing anything wrong.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
They always hunted the sensei and illuminati but didn’t think they were tzeentch cult. They hunted them because they wanted to kill what they consider the emperor but the illuminati consider a shackle stopping the star child being reborn.

The Inquisition suspected and thought the Sensei were probably part of a Chaos cult, as the sequel to Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness says when discussing the Table Top. The Inquisition thought the Sensei were "If not actually in lague with the forces of Chaos, are severely weakening the bulwark which the Imperium has set itself against."


So the Inquisition's word does not mean crap. They have always been that way.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/9893and0zk1po368/images/187-ce03354169.jpg

Here it is.

Hope I am not doing anything wrong.

The Inquisitions job is to keep the crap basket that is the IOM together as long as possible and major change is always a major risk. Maybe the star child theory is right but even if the Big E got off the throne and that might help humanity. It also might doom humanity to a short term civil war that ends up bringing it all down. They also might be a deluded cult that will actually kill the emperor which is 100 percent game over. Why take that chance.

There is no reason to think the Inquisition is right, especially since they have always thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos.

Onething123456 wrote:
There is no reason to think the Inquisition is right, especially since they have always thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos.

No they have not. If you actually bother to read anything past that RT you love so dearly you'll see everything you been told is a lie. The =][= is in no way united and there are splinter factions everywhere all with their own personal goals and interpretations of Imperial creed.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
There is no reason to think the Inquisition is right, especially since they have always thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos.

No they have not. If you actually bother to read anything past that RT you love so dearly you'll see everything you been told is a lie. The =][= is in no way united and there are splinter factions everywhere all with their own personal goals and interpretations of Imperial creed.

They have always thought that. Did I not post a scan where it says the Imperium thinks the Sensei are probably in league with Chaos? "The Imperum sees the Sensei as bandits and Nihilists, who if not actually in league with Chaos, are weakening the bulwark the Imperium has set itself against."


But whatever.

His point was that the fluff has developed since then. The Inquisition is not a united entity with a single goal and set of beliefs.

Given the vastly divergent views of different inquisitors regarding what would happen if the Emperor dies, their views on the Sensei (assuming they actually do still exist in the setting) would be equally varied.

I could see certain factions of the Inquisition supporting the Sensei:

The Recongregationists, who believe in reforming the Imperium to be stronger, more efficient, or otherwise better. The Sensei's attempts to fight back against injustice and oppression might mesh with the Recongregationists' desire for reform.

The Istvaanists, who believe the Imperium grows stronger through struggle. They go so far as to prop up or support enemies of the Imperium in order to give the Imperium a worthy challenge, before then pitting the rest of the Imperium against the challenge. If the Imperium prevails, then their view is the Imperium has passed the test and grown stronger. If the Imperium fails, then the weak parts have been cut away. Thus I could see Istvaanists supporting a Sensei, whether or not they genuinely believe the Sensei are real or Chaos aligned, simply because the Sensei would pose a challenge to the Imperium.

The Thorians look for ways the Emperor might be resurrected, or for individuals that might be living vessels for the Emperor's power. Naturally they might take an interest in the Sensei, and might want to protect the Sensei against the rest of the Imperium.

^^^This.

The Inquisition is not one united organisation. In fact, if you look at the Inquisitor rulebook it almost seems like the whole organisation is constantly in opposition to itself. So there will be one faction who say the Sensei are in league with Chaos (whether they believe that or whether they just say that in order to discredit those who disagree with them is another matter altogether). There will be one who see the Sensei as saviours, brining about the return of the Emperor. There will be some who don't even agree that the Sensei truly exist.

There is no one single answer. We don't know for sure. That's part of how the Inquisition is designed in 40k. The background has evolved since 1st edition and we've had a few more in-depth looks a the Inquisition since the original Sensei fluff was written, so it's probably safe to assume that older fluff isn't the most accurate any more.

Plus we all know the sense are a chaos cult and everything posted otherwise is just properganda

goundry wrote:
Plus we all know the sense are a chaos cult and everything posted otherwise is just properganda

Nonsense. But alright.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Voss wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
But, but...it's 1st Edition Rogue Trader. How dare you sully it's good name!

.

I like RT. But a lot of the fluff was 'insert wacky stuff from 2000 AD comics into Dune' and call it a day.
Growth of the company meant working through all bits littering the shop floor and creating something reasonably coherent out of it, and abandoning things that didn't work (Sensei) or they couldn't figure out how to make work (Squats, by their own admission).

Part of the reason the Sensei didn't work is they explicitly set up an end game where the Emepror is restored, whole and absolutely an incarnate deity wandering around making everything better.... Which negates the tone, themes and even the setting altogether.

QFT. I'm still wondering why Carlos Ezquerra isn't credited in every book for providing inspiration.

That said, would Sensei really be pulling the whole narrative in a different direction?

A simpler explanation would be that GW abandoned the idea simply because there's already a lot to manage. They never really had a place on the tabletop.

.


I still think it would be silly to believe the Inquisition.


I am reminded, here are scans for the Emperor planing for humanity to psychically evolve before Master of Mankind was printed.

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/8cbz0nk9c01odrep/images/136-4e29d6fffd.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/8cbz0nk9c01odrep/images/139-112197a05f.jpg


And the oldest lore we have about the Sensei and Illuminati.


https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/13h5ls1wn42yz2d/images/217-ea82bfc177.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/13h5ls1wn42yz2d/images/216-89875b35f4.jpg

The Sensei in the scanned images mostly sound like an early incarnarion of the "pariah gene", essentially.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Sensei in the scanned images mostly sound like an early incarnarion of the "pariah gene", essentially.

That's the oldest lore we have about the Sensei.

Here is more.

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/9893and0zk1po368/images/186-bc3c0065a4.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/9893and0zk1po368/images/187-ce03354169.jpg

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/9893and0zk1po368/images/188-9a496f46e9.jpg

That's really more of a pro-Emperor-soul Daemon Prince, which is interesting but a sort of unfulfilling concept. The whole Star Child concept is a bit wayward, imo. Interesting 40K history though.

I think I prefer Celestine and Sanguinor as Imperial Daemon Princes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's really more of a pro-Emperor-soul Daemon Prince, which is interesting but a sort of unfulfilling concept. The whole Star Child concept is a bit wayward, imo. Interesting 40K history though.

I think I prefer Celestine and Sanguinor as Imperial Daemon Princes.

Its considered the best Games Workshop has produced by a lot of people who have been following since the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

*citation needed.

https://www.youtube.com/user/leakycheese

This YouTuber, who has been following since 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

And I was referring to the books the Sensei and Star Child are from.

The shaman origin was well written, along with the Star Child and Sensei.

And this guy.

https://www.reddit.com/user/dapperjabber/

The shaman origin craps all over the crackpot "Emperor being DAOT tech" for me.

So two people, three including you, think that 1st edition lore is the best? That's not very good.

 kastelen wrote:
So two people, three including you, think that 1st edition lore is the best? That's not very good.

Those were the ones I could find off the top of my head.

The shaman origin is well written. It craps all over any crackpot story for the Emperor IMO.

And I was referring to the books the Sensei and Star Child are from, not 1st Edition itself.

Are you even reading other people's replies at this point? None of the info dumps you've posted were relevant to the conversation people were having. If you want a discussion you have to engage with what other people are actually saying, not just throw up a bunch of info you've decided you want to share. For example, what relevance does the material you provided on the Emperor have to the discussion that was happening right before you posted?

On top of that, we know there are large parts of 1st edition background that are either directly contradicted by more recent writing or have simply been quietly abandoned. That makes determining whether a lot of old background is still current quite difficult. The fact something appeared in 1st edition isn't really that relevant unless something more recent than that references it in some way. We can see from the old Emperor material, for example, that there's no mention of the Horus Heresy (it wasn't a thing at that point in GW history) so while it's not necessarily inaccurate, it does omit a huge part of the background, which makes its status as the "One True Background" pretty questionable.

Finally, the point of Azreal13's "citation needed" comment was to point out that a bunch of people's opinions on something doesn't constitute proof. It doesn't matter whether they are on YouTube, Reddit or are the God-Emperor themselves, their opinion holds no more weight than anyone else's.

Onething123456 wrote:

 kastelen wrote:
So two people, three including you, think that 1st edition lore is the best? That's not very good.

Those were the ones I could find off the top of my head.

The shaman origin is well written. It craps all over any crackpot story for the Emperor IMO.

And I was referring to the books the Sensei and Star Child are from, not 1st Edition itself.

I did a search and found more people who are on the opposite side of the argument/opinion of you three though.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/24078.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/79409.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/97856.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/664.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/99.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/47893.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/109034.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/44272.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/113626.page

Now I don’t know who to believe..

Do you have proof they think that? I must have been mislead, since a lot of people I talked to said they thought that. I guess it doesn't matter. One of your links says one of the people has been following since 2016.

Slipspace wrote:

On top of that, we know there are large parts of 1st edition background that are either directly contradicted by more recent writing or have simply been quietly abandoned. That makes determining whether a lot of old background is still current quite difficult. The fact something appeared in 1st edition isn't really that relevant unless something more recent than that references it in some way. We can see from the old Emperor material, for example, that there's no mention of the Horus Heresy (it wasn't a thing at that point in GW history) so while it's not necessarily inaccurate, it does omit a huge part of the background, which makes its status as the "One True Background" pretty questionable.

Half Eldar Space Marines for everyone.