Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

RedNoak wrote:
yes. they can

(really informative post isnt it?)

A model that advanced cannot charge. Doesn't matter if it was set up as a reinforcement or not.

Unless they have a special rule like Genestealers that lets them charge after advancing?

RedNoak wrote:
but if they are reinforcements (or treated as) they are allowed to charge. because reinforcments are allowed to charge after they've been set up on the battlefield

Citation please where in the rules, or FAQs, it says that reinforcements can still charge after advancing.

RedNoak wrote:

you cannot have it both way... either they are or they arent.

if advanced, either:
they are reinforcements, they cannot be moved again (by any means), but can charge
they arent reinforcements, they can be moved again (by any means), but they cant charge

Yes, you can have both ways. This vehicle advances and is set up again as reinforcements in the same turn. Is there anything else that can do the same ? I dont know. Looks like GW makes new rules without thinking about the consequences. We dont know all the rules, yet. Maybe there is clarification what it can do, and what it cant, when the ork codex is out. But i doubt it.

From 'Advancing' (main rulebook, pg. 177):

A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.

I see nothing in the Reinforcements rule which would override this just because it may occur after advancing.

Remember, rules have to ALL be followed for an action to be legal.

If you have a rule saying you can't shoot, and a rule saying you can shoot, then the only legal action is to not shoot.

RedNoak wrote:
EDIT2:
to make it more clear:

from the rulebook
REINFORCEMENTS:
[..] but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes.

i dont know how it could have been written more clearly

doesnt matter what they did before. if they arrive as reinforcments they count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

RedNoak wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
EDIT2:
to make it more clear:

from the rulebook
REINFORCEMENTS:
[..] but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes.

i dont know how it could have been written more clearly

doesnt matter what they did before. if they arrive as reinforcments they count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

Moving and advancing are definitely not mutually exclusive.

what of course they are???

when you select a unit you either let em move or advance. then they count has having moved or advanced

if a model moved during the movement phase, it can fire heavy weapons, a model that advanced cannot.

so yes either it counts as having moved or it counts as having advanced, it cant count as both

This is madness.

I think it's abundantly clear what GW's intentions are with this rule interaction. Let's break it down;

You advance and happen to roll a 4+.

That makes you (there is no choice with this) appear anywhere on the map as long as you're 9" away from an enemy model and otherwise in a legal position using the Shokk Tunnel ability.

You have advanced, the rule states quite literally that it happens during "Advancing". You cannot charge or move afterwards, unless there is a rule (Wartrike for example) that overrides this.

I don't think it really matters if you count as arriving as reinforcements or not. You follow the rules as the datasheet.

RedNoak wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
EDIT2:
to make it more clear:

from the rulebook
REINFORCEMENTS:
[..] but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes.

i dont know how it could have been written more clearly

doesnt matter what they did before. if they arrive as reinforcments they count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

They do count as having moved in their Movement phase.

They also advanced in their movement phase, which is movement. So they can not charge if they advance.

RedNoak wrote:
what of course they are???

when you select a unit you either let em move or advance. then they count has having moved or advanced

if a model moved during the movement phase, it can fire heavy weapons, a model that advanced cannot.

so yes either it counts as having moved or it counts as having advanced, it cant count as both

Advancing only places additional restrictions on a unit in exchange for more distance on its move, it is still moving.
eg with heavy weapons, moving the unit means that it takes a -1 hit penalty when it shoots and advancing gives a penalty where you cannot shoot but both are active at the same time. Just because one of the penalties wouldn't be needed in most circumstances doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also if you advance and don't move you just stay still, there is nothing in the advance rule that lets a unit actually get to a different spot on the board.

RedNoak wrote:
what of course they are???

when you select a unit you either let em move or advance. then they count has having moved or advanced

if a model moved during the movement phase, it can fire heavy weapons, a model that advanced cannot.

so yes either it counts as having moved or it counts as having advanced, it cant count as both

You have this all wrong. Advancing is something you do in the movement phase that adds d6 (or for some units a different amount) to your movement characteristic. The movement after doing this is still movement.

again and its the last time i wil post this, because its ridiculous...

units arrive as reinforcments cannot advance.
'but they did advanced beforehand but that doenst matter'

units that arrived as reinforcements can charge and count as have moved
'but they advanced beforehand, but it matters'

again you cant have it both ways

Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet.

Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance.

so either a model used the moving rule ie it has moved
or it uses the advancing rule ie. it has advanced

a model cant have moved and advanced. because those are different things. they have different rules and act differently on other rules.
none of those rules is more important than the other. thats why we have faqs for conflicting rules.

RedNoak wrote:
again and its the last time i wil post this, because its ridiculous...

units arrive as reinforcments cannot advance.
'but they did advanced beforehand but that doenst matter'

units that arrived as reinforcements can charge and count as have moved
'but they advanced beforehand, but it matters'

again you cant have it both ways

Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet.

Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance.

so either a model used the moving rule ie it has moved
or it uses the advancing rule ie. it has advanced

a model cant have moved and advanced. because those are different things. they have different rules and act differently on other rules.
none of those rules is more important than the other. thats why we have faqs for conflicting rules.

Say you want a unit to advance, show me a rule that lets it get from one spot on the board to another.

RedNoak wrote:
again and its the last time i wil post this, because its ridiculous...

units arrive as reinforcments cannot advance.
'but they did advanced beforehand but that doenst matter'

units that arrived as reinforcements can charge and count as have moved
'but they advanced beforehand, but it matters'

again you cant have it both ways

Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet.

Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance.

so either a model used the moving rule ie it has moved
or it uses the advancing rule ie. it has advanced

a model cant have moved and advanced. because those are different things. they have different rules and act differently on other rules.
none of those rules is more important than the other. thats why we have faqs for conflicting rules.

Again, you're reading this wrong. The advancing rule doesn't replace moving, it adds something to it. You are still moving.

A model may have not moved, moved, or moved and advanced.

RedNoak wrote:
again and its the last time i wil post this, because its ridiculous...

units arrive as reinforcments cannot advance.
'but they did advanced beforehand but that doenst matter'

units that arrived as reinforcements can charge and count as have moved
'but they advanced beforehand, but it matters'

again you cant have it both ways

By that logic you could never use the rule that would make a unit that has declared an advance if they could arrive as reinforcements.

Or, they advanced and then are reinforcements placed more than 9 inches and have all the restrictions of advance and reinforcements in place as we should strive to break no rules.

If you advance the ork vehicle, roll a 4+, and it is set up anywhere more than 9" from enemy models, it cannot charge. Its that simple. Even if you didnt roll a 4+, it cant charge. This restriction not being able to charge has nothing to do with arriving as reinforcements.

Advancing
When you pick a unit to move in the
Movement phase, you can declare that
it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the
result to the Move characteristics of all
models in the unit for that Movement
phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot
or charge later that turn.

There could be an additional rule, which is not shown yet, allowing it to charge after being set up.

If A, then you can C.
If B, then you cannot C.

If A and B apply to you, can you C?

 JNAProductions wrote:
If A, then you can C.
If B, then you cannot C.

If A and B apply to you, can you C?

It is more like:
If A then there is no change on how you do C.
If B then you cannot do C.
If A and B both apply can you C? NO

This has been covered completely, and while I think it's clear, we can wait for GW's FAQ.