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2018/10/18 19:54:54
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Spartacus wrote: Another reason not to cap the -ve modifiers is that it basically removes the effect of the Chapter Tactic for units that have them already built in.
Take Alaitoc Rangers for example. Capping -ve modifiers at -1 would essentially mean that Rangers, Alaitocs flagship/famous-for unit, gain zero benefit from even being ALAITOC.
Which is why you shouldn't cap at -1 only, but capping at -2 still allows for 2 different things to interact, such as the army trait, unit ability and shooting unit using Heavy weapons.
And that's really all that is needed: A cap that still allows at least 2 abilities to interact.
-
-2 is already enough to cripple any army other then Custodes (since they are the only ones with army wide 2+)
That's a great point when viewed in a vacuum. However, we don't play in a vacuum. The reason Custodes hit on 2+ is because there are about 15 of them, so every shot need to hit. Compare that to an army with massed bodies, and you see should see similar statistical outcome of hits when accounting for negative hit modifiers when things are somewhat balanced. Obviously there are outliers where you can choose a horde armies best/worst unit and that will skew the numbers. I think a negative hit modifier cap of -3 is probably the sweet spot as that allows a trait + heavy or advancing assault weapon + some other bonus (stratagem, psychic power, innate ability). But it prevents that last group from stacking. At only -2, you make that last group worthless against the any weapon penalties.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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2018/10/19 02:53:18
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Those won't care about shooting anyway, modifier or not. For example Orks or Wulfens, their game is charge in and attack in CC.
But for some army like Marines, relatively low RoF high quality shooting is one of the most important part of their game. They relies on their BS 3+ to live. So if the modifier drop them to 5+ bs, they are basically toasted.
2018/10/19 05:30:27
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
There ways to prevent stacking in a sensible way. There are many cases of powers abilities and traits which do not stack with each other, just add these to the list. For example:
Fieldcraft: Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls for attacks that target a unit with this attribute at a range of more than 12". This modifier does not stack with the ones from the concealment power, lightning reflexes stratagem and hard to hit rule.
Done, now you have made going Alaitoc more of a choice, limited the most severe cases of penalty stackings and reigned in Alaitoc wings without nerfing the rangers, which should be the base of any Alaitoc army.
CWE will still be able to stack hit penalties, true, but that's their perk. Alaitoc this ways instead of playing into the strenght of the faction, makes it just more easy to get the protection, does not improve it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/19 05:33:17
2018/10/19 06:21:03
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Those won't care about shooting anyway, modifier or not. For example Orks or Wulfens, their game is charge in and attack in CC.
But for some army like Marines, relatively low RoF high quality shooting is one of the most important part of their game. They relies on their BS 3+ to live. So if the modifier drop them to 5+ bs, they are basically toasted.
Except sometimes you can't charge. Especially now that GW made assaulting high level buildings impossible. With pure h2h you can't win. And orks have plenty of shooting units actually...
Also now that boyz got gimped to death h2h for orks is even harder. Hell orks actually AREN'T good h2h army. They don't get to h2h. Orks don't kill stuff in h2h(they won't get there) and orks won't kill stuff in shooting(hitting on 6's suck) so all they actually do is sit on objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: There ways to prevent stacking in a sensible way. There are many cases of powers abilities and traits which do not stack with each other, just add these to the list. For example:
Fieldcraft: Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls for attacks that target a unit with this attribute at a range of more than 12". This modifier does not stack with the ones from the concealment power, lightning reflexes stratagem and hard to hit rule.
Then GW introduces new rule with -1 to hit and list needs to grow. Why not simply say you can only gain 1 source of bonus and penalty for to hit rolls rather than list potentially growing list of rule names.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/19 06:22:18
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2018/10/19 06:48:16
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Weidekuh wrote: People then will just complain about 2+ wave serpents, Wraithlords, wraithknight, wraithguards, wraithblades and more.
Especially 2+ Guardian Defenders (because of their weapon plattforms).
Same old.
If we still had the all or nothing AP system I'd agree. However anything that has a chance of hurting the tough stuff already has ap-2 or 3 and guardians will still die to massed small arms fire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/19 08:18:10
2018/10/19 12:31:58
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
leopard wrote: what you could do is to expand the <KEYWORD> system to weapons and abilities, they can then use that to interact.
e.g. an ability giving -1 to hit as <COVER> noting it does not stack with other <COVER> modifiers
Going down that road will eventually expand into less manageable solutions. We need less clutter and more simplicity. A hard card is much easier to manage.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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2018/10/19 15:06:56
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Spartacus wrote: Another reason not to cap the -ve modifiers is that it basically removes the effect of the Chapter Tactic for units that have them already built in.
Take Alaitoc Rangers for example. Capping -ve modifiers at -1 would essentially mean that Rangers, Alaitocs flagship/famous-for unit, gain zero benefit from even being ALAITOC.
Which is why you shouldn't cap at -1 only, but capping at -2 still allows for 2 different things to interact, such as the army trait, unit ability and shooting unit using Heavy weapons.
And that's really all that is needed: A cap that still allows at least 2 abilities to interact.
-
-2 is already enough to cripple any army other then Custodes (since they are the only ones with army wide 2+)
And that's a problem why? If you want to counter such potential measures, start bringing in stuff to shoot close or melee stuff.
I agree it should be a max of -2, but it's a healthy trait for the game that's really only complained about by gunline people.
How can you honestly say something like this? It's not just "gunline people" almost every unit in this game has a gun. Not to mention Eldar armies can easily get to -2 to hit in CC too. Plus weapons like powerfist are -1 to hit in CC and it all stacks.
minus to hit traits in general are extremely unhealthy. If anything can be learned from 7th eddition is that reducing units ability to be hit - makes them almost indestructible.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/19 15:12:11
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Or make hyper effective shooting options more expensive.
Balance unit point costs...What a novel idea...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/19 15:20:48
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/19 15:42:59
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/10/19 15:48:53
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
The reason the -1 to hit trait is too strong is its too universally applied and it is too overcentralizing.
Basically any army that can take a -1 to hit trait is heavily penalized for not doing so, and since they game still needs to be balanced it means all of the unit's in the codex are designed to be balanced around these outliers. Take a look at what happend to Space Marines, all of their vehicles got price hikes because they were too good in Guilliman's bubble, so all of the vehicles got nerfed. What this did was make Ultramarines fair and balanced, and made all of the other chapters below par. Do you want the same to happen to CWE until only Alaitoc is playable and the other craftworlds are like shooting yourself in the foot?
Space Marines are right now basically down to Raven Guard or Ultramarines, and Ultramarines are entirely held up by Guilliman.
CWE are the Alaitoc show, Iyanden, Ultwe, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann... what are those? Why would you ever take them to a tournament?
The -1 to hit traits need to be brought down the the level of the other traits. Right now they are significantly stronger than things like "ignore cover" or re-roll 1s to hit with Shuriken Weapons, or double wounds for degeneration. Its too over centralizing and it needs to be toned down, players need a reason to pick Iyanden outside of just for fun, and you can't have that if Alaitoc is always better at everything.
stacking negative modifiers to hit is a pox on this game and it needs to go.
akaean wrote: The reason the -1 to hit trait is too strong is its too universally applied and it is too overcentralizing.
Basically any army that can take a -1 to hit trait is heavily penalized for not doing so, and since they game still needs to be balanced it means all of the unit's in the codex are designed to be balanced around these outliers. Take a look at what happend to Space Marines, all of their vehicles got price hikes because they were too good in Guilliman's bubble, so all of the vehicles got nerfed. What this did was make Ultramarines fair and balanced, and made all of the other chapters below par. Do you want the same to happen to CWE until only Alaitoc is playable and the other craftworlds are like shooting yourself in the foot?
Space Marines are right now basically down to Raven Guard or Ultramarines, and Ultramarines are entirely held up by Guilliman.
CWE are the Alaitoc show, Iyanden, Ultwe, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann... what are those? Why would you ever take them to a tournament?
The -1 to hit traits need to be brought down the the level of the other traits. Right now they are significantly stronger than things like "ignore cover" or re-roll 1s to hit with Shuriken Weapons, or double wounds for degeneration. Its too over centralizing and it needs to be toned down, players need a reason to pick Iyanden outside of just for fun, and you can't have that if Alaitoc is always better at everything.
stacking negative modifiers to hit is a pox on this game and it needs to go.
Aye.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 3+ armies don't pay to shoot like orks. It's pathetic we even need to have this discussion after 7th eddition was basically destroyed by invis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/19 15:57:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/19 16:01:50
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Well for a start it's going to confuse people just glancing at a copy of their rules because the rule that's written down doesn't actually do the thing it's supposed to do but something else instead.
Second it will make Dark Angels Azrael/Darkshroud bubbles interesting.
2018/10/19 16:09:15
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
-1 to hit bones tyranids harder than most armies. They don't even have a reroll hits to take away. Plenty of units hit on 4's. Plenty of units need to advance to shoot - so now you are hitting on 6's with a -1.
Not saying that a 10 point upgrade like sporeocyst is problematic. It's not - I love the upgrade. A blanket -1 to hit trait is basically like a 10-20 point upgrade on every unit for free. Absolutely insane. Plus it scales incredibly hard with additional -1 to hits.
OFC - I am of the opinion that there are too many defenses that always work in this game. I think more weapons need to ignore invo saves - I think more weapons need to ignore to hit penalties (or at least stratagems should exist that do this). Right now if you have good invos and to hit penalities you are basically immune to damage. Outside of mortal wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/19 16:32:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/10/19 16:09:56
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
MistaGav wrote: Well for a start it's going to confuse people just glancing at a copy of their rules because the rule that's written down doesn't actually do the thing it's supposed to do but something else instead.
This is my biggest complaint with a "living" ruleset. Player just picking up an army shouldn't have to refer to other sources for the complete picture of their rules, nor should they be required to use digital media. The current system is certainly better than before, but it has it's downsides.
A blanket rule for Match play that makes -1 to be hit armywide traits not be able to stack, could work. It would still allow unit abilities and moving with heavies/advancing with assault weapons still be able to stack, but the army-wide traits would be there just for units without some other -1s. But this is far more clunky than just capping to-hit mods at -2.
But I am also very much in favor of the traits providing cover AND a bonus for units already in cover and removing the -1 to hit. It allows the traits to be roughly as useful while allowing other traits to make an appearance now an then.
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/19 16:19:56
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
2018/10/19 17:56:05
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
Which army doesn't have some type of re-roll ability?
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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2018/10/19 18:19:07
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
Polonius wrote: one simple solution would be to change AL/RG/Alaitoc to getting a -1 to hit, if they are in cover..
Agreed, which is the rumor. I'm all for it, so long as it also gives a bonus for actually being in cover as well. Otherwise terrain wouldn't matter as much aside from blocking LoS. And as mentioned, Eldar Rangers, which are Alaitoc's SIGNATURE troops, would get no benefit from Alaitoc if there is not a cover bonus for actually being in cover
-
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/19 18:40:32
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
Which army doesn't have some type of re-roll ability?
we're not talking about 'some type of re-roll' we are talking about entire armies that negate re-roll fails entirely. That you can get 1 unit to re-roll 'some' dice (all is again very limited) still makes everything else in your army dogshit.
Hence my use of the words 'blanket re-roll everything'.
A non-exhaustive list is:
Space Marines (and various subfactions)
Guard
AdMech
IK
CSM (and various subfactions)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
GSC
So.... everything except Eldar? Who between Reapers and Hemlocks ignoring it, Guide and Linked-Fire can pretty much re-roll all their major elements.
2018/10/19 18:27:34
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
Which army doesn't have some type of re-roll ability?
we're not talking about 'some type of re-roll' we are talking about entire armies that negate re-roll fails entirely. That you can get 1 unit to re-roll 'some' dice (all is again very limited) still makes everything else in your army dogshit.
Hence my use of the words 'blanket re-roll everything'.
A non-exhaustive list is:
Space Marines (and various subfactions)
Guard
AdMech
IK
CSM (and various subfactions)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
GSC
So.... everything except Eldar? Who between Reapers and Hemlocks ignoring it, Guide and Linked-Fire can pretty much re-roll all their major elements.
Please explain how Eldar, as an army, negates all re-roll fails.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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2018/10/19 18:33:45
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
Which army doesn't have some type of re-roll ability?
we're not talking about 'some type of re-roll' we are talking about entire armies that negate re-roll fails entirely. That you can get 1 unit to re-roll 'some' dice (all is again very limited) still makes everything else in your army dogshit.
Hence my use of the words 'blanket re-roll everything'.
A non-exhaustive list is:
Space Marines (and various subfactions)
Guard
AdMech
IK
CSM (and various subfactions)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
GSC
So.... everything except Eldar? Who between Reapers and Hemlocks ignoring it, Guide and Linked-Fire can pretty much re-roll all their major elements.
Please explain how Eldar, as an army, negates all re-roll fails.
Eldar, as an army partially negate minus to hit in the manner talked above.
By virtue of Reapers always hitting on 3+.
By Hemlocks being equipped with flamers that ignore minus to hit.
By the Linked-Fire Stratagem on their main battle tank equivalent.
By Guide on whatever unit isn't covered by the above.
Which only leaves, what? the unit of rangers taken as a troop tax?
2018/10/19 19:07:16
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
SHUPPET wrote: Shooting is ridiculous right now - there SHOULD be defensive options against it.
3++ and 4++ saves do a really nice job by ignoring 66%-50% of all damage.
*checks how many 3++ armor saves my dex has* would you look at that, none at all!
Do you realize that blanket -1 to hit. Takes 3+ to hit with rerolls down to 3+ to hit averages. Effectively the power level is exactly the same as giving your entire army reroll all hits. It's too bloody powerful.
No, it's the same as removing re-rolls and that's a GOOD thing not a bad one
And what about all the armies that don't blanket re-roll everything? Which, funny enough, is most of the game.
Which army doesn't have some type of re-roll ability?
we're not talking about 'some type of re-roll' we are talking about entire armies that negate re-roll fails entirely. That you can get 1 unit to re-roll 'some' dice (all is again very limited) still makes everything else in your army dogshit.
Hence my use of the words 'blanket re-roll everything'.
A non-exhaustive list is:
Space Marines (and various subfactions)
Guard
AdMech
IK
CSM (and various subfactions)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Necrons
Tau
Tyranids
GSC
So.... everything except Eldar? Who between Reapers and Hemlocks ignoring it, Guide and Linked-Fire can pretty much re-roll all their major elements.
Please explain how Eldar, as an army, negates all re-roll fails.
Eldar, as an army partially negate minus to hit in the manner talked above.
By virtue of Reapers always hitting on 3+.
By Hemlocks being equipped with flamers that ignore minus to hit.
By the Linked-Fire Stratagem on their main battle tank equivalent.
By Guide on whatever unit isn't covered by the above.
Which only leaves, what? the unit of rangers taken as a troop tax?
So when referencing negative hit modifiers, re-rolls happen before modifiers, which debunks your examples of Linked-Fire and Guide. They are re-rolling failed hit rolls just like lots of other armies (For Space Marines, Chapter Masters say hello!) Regarding Hemlocks, a lot of Armies have auto hitting weapons (e.g. Death Guard have a bunch of flamers that are quite strong). Reapers are the outlier here as they are of the few (perhaps only) units in the game with the ability to completely ignore modifiers. So in light of that, I'll agree with you that Eldar has a unit that can negate failed re-rolls entirely.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
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2018/10/19 19:16:33
Subject: Chapter Approved 2018 Rumor: -1 to be hit armies -> in cover, ramifications if true?
It's totally fine for -1 to hit to exist. To give it away for free as an army trait is insane.
This is very simple.
reroll all hits is completely negated at 3+ to hit by a -1 modifer. Therefore the 2 traits are equal. However - reroll all hits does not exist as an army trait - just reroll 1's - and quite often you are forced to stay still in order to use it. Pretty clear the trait is effing busted. I called it out day 1. It took them a year and a half to figure it out. LOL.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
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