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Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, it is canon, just not necessarily true. And Rogue Trader had a lot of cool fluff, though this perhaps is not an example I'd specifically choose.

Whats not to love about the shaman origin, the Sensei and the Star Child? Those things, and other things from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, are better than anything in the Horus Heresy books. Horus' fall in the HH books was badly written, in my opinion. As are many other things. In my humble opinion, the Perpetuals are alright, but that's besides the point. 1st Edition Rogue Trader craps on the Horus Heresy books.

Have you actually read the Rogue Trader background? There's some brilliant stuff in there, including seminal work on Chaos and Orks which has never been bettered since IMO. But my God there's some rubbish in there too. 1st edition was all over the place tonally and quality wise, which isn't surprising given GW were still pretty much a young pretender run by enthusisasts rather than the huge corporate entity they are today.

Similarly, the HH books have had some really well-written elements and explored some interesting areas of the background. Both bodies of work are far too inconsistent, IMO, to say either one craps all over the other. The biggest problem with the HH series is, as others have pointed out, the annoying need to reveal everything. We don't need to know all the details of, for example, Perturabo's fall to Chaos, or every last move made by Horus on his way to Earth, but GW are going to keep milking that cash cow for a while yet. We also see a perfect example of why you shouldn't reveal too much about your mysterious background - the reality never lives up to whatever people have imagined themselves.

regarding the HH exploring everything, this actually gets back to the original debate, GW hasn't, as you said, been shy on details. (BTW I'd argue that claiming we don't need to know the details of Perturabo's fall to Chaos is a weak arguement, I imagine many Iron Warrior fans are very intreasted in this but thats beside the point) one detail GW HAS shy'd on thus far is the full orgin of the Emperor, which suggests to me that GW does not WANT a precise "this is who the emperor is" answer anymore. which implies the "Shaman story" is effectivly retconned as "perhaps not the truth" at least to me.

Probably because the introduction of the Necrons, the retconning of the War in Heaven from Eldar mythology to something that happened while the biggest mammal on Earth was a squirrel wondering what all that noise was makes the whole shamanistic background hard to crowbar back in; back then, the warp was calm, but the rise of humanity was cuasing ripples that would eventually become the first three Chaos gods, but once the Necrons came along and bent the entire setting around themselves, that gets harder to fit in. You've also got the oddity that less than a billion weakly psychic humans could cause the rise of three chaos gods with relatively minor side effects (Ghengis Khan's Mongol empire, the Black Death and Renaissance Italy, IIRC), but that it took several planets-worth of powerful psykers to create one, which blew up a significant proportion of the galaxy. Easier just to look innocent and pretend that page was never written.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Probably because the introduction of the Necrons, the retconning of the War in Heaven from Eldar mythology to something that happened while the biggest mammal on Earth was a squirrel wondering what all that noise was makes the whole shamanistic background hard to crowbar back in; back then, the warp was calm, but the rise of humanity was cuasing ripples that would eventually become the first three Chaos gods, but once the Necrons came along and bent the entire setting around themselves, that gets harder to fit in. You've also got the oddity that less than a billion weakly psychic humans could cause the rise of three chaos gods with relatively minor side effects (Ghengis Khan's Mongol empire, the Black Death and Renaissance Italy, IIRC), but that it took several planets-worth of powerful psykers to create one, which blew up a significant proportion of the galaxy. Easier just to look innocent and pretend that page was never written.

I think I saw one person who thought the shaman origin was not published anywhere. But that is nonsense.


EDIT: ad I might have misinterpreted it.

Onething123456 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Probably because the introduction of the Necrons, the retconning of the War in Heaven from Eldar mythology to something that happened while the biggest mammal on Earth was a squirrel wondering what all that noise was makes the whole shamanistic background hard to crowbar back in; back then, the warp was calm, but the rise of humanity was cuasing ripples that would eventually become the first three Chaos gods, but once the Necrons came along and bent the entire setting around themselves, that gets harder to fit in. You've also got the oddity that less than a billion weakly psychic humans could cause the rise of three chaos gods with relatively minor side effects (Ghengis Khan's Mongol empire, the Black Death and Renaissance Italy, IIRC), but that it took several planets-worth of powerful psykers to create one, which blew up a significant proportion of the galaxy. Easier just to look innocent and pretend that page was never written.

I think I saw one person who thought the shaman origin was not published anywhere. But that is nonsense.


EDIT: ad I might have misinterpreted it.

no everyone knows it's published, everyone just says that it was published back in a day when so much has been retconned, looking at any unsupported passage there and declaring it the truth is foolish, doubly so when GW has gone out of their way to be deliberately VAGUE on it

The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.


He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.

https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax's head. For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch's thoughts, sending pain searing through him. In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before, the tiniest fraction of the Emperor's being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic might of the Emperor. Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch's body quaked with the sensation, rebelling against the patterns and images thrust into his brain."


And this from Deliverance Lost .

Onething123456 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.

.

'

ok first of all no one fething fforgets it how can we fething forget it when you quote iot every bloody time. What people say is "look just because the Emperor is REALLY REALLY OLD, does NOT confirm the Shaman Orgin. there is, after all, a whole HOST of super duper old people, perpetuals, and they wheren't all created by the shamans now where they? hence All that passage proves is that the emperor has been around for a long time.

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.

.

'

ok first of all no one fething fforgets it how can we fething forget it when you quote iot every bloody time. What people say is "look just because the Emperor is REALLY REALLY OLD, does NOT confirm the Shaman Orgin. there is, after all, a whole HOST of super duper old people, perpetuals, and they wheren't all created by the shamans now where they? hence All that passage proves is that the emperor has been around for a long time.

Dude, I was not saying it confirmed the shaman origin, only that he was born around 40,000 years ago.

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.

.

'

ok first of all no one fething fforgets it how can we fething forget it when you quote iot every bloody time. What people say is "look just because the Emperor is REALLY REALLY OLD, does NOT confirm the Shaman Orgin. there is, after all, a whole HOST of super duper old people, perpetuals, and they wheren't all created by the shamans now where they? hence All that passage proves is that the emperor has been around for a long time.

Dude, I was not saying it confirmed the shaman origin, only that he was born around 40,000 years ago.

Which in itself is fairly self-evident, so you shouldn't have to feel the need to repost something you've done a million times at this point. No, seriously, look at your past posts and I think you'll notice that you repeat the same quotes a disturbing amount of times. At this point, I'm somewhat surprised you haven't made it your signature (please don't).

 Grimskul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.

.

'

ok first of all no one fething fforgets it how can we fething forget it when you quote iot every bloody time. What people say is "look just because the Emperor is REALLY REALLY OLD, does NOT confirm the Shaman Orgin. there is, after all, a whole HOST of super duper old people, perpetuals, and they wheren't all created by the shamans now where they? hence All that passage proves is that the emperor has been around for a long time.

Dude, I was not saying it confirmed the shaman origin, only that he was born around 40,000 years ago.

Which in itself is fairly self-evident, so you shouldn't have to feel the need to repost something you've done a million times at this point. No, seriously, look at your past posts and I think you'll notice that you repeat the same quotes a disturbing amount of times. At this point, I'm somewhat surprised you haven't made it your signature (please don't).

I won't. That would be silly. And I'm sorry about that.

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Carlisimo wrote:
The Realm of Chaos books (The Lost and the Damned, in this case) are generally considered “more canonical” than Rogue Trader. They’re still really old books and things have changed since, but surprisingly few ideas in them have been openly contradicted. You can tell that GW has been working around and in between that old content. Yes, GW’s ignored the Star Child and Senseis… but hasn’t shot them down. And the Horus Heresy and traitor legions are fundamentally similar to the way we know them today.

Rogue Trader, on the other hand, has a lot of concepts that truly don’t work anymore. Space Marines are no longer policemen in power armor, half-Eldar marines are unimaginable, chapter/legion details have been overturned, etc. I’m personally of the stories in there.

Fortunately for us, The Lost and the Damned repeats the shaman story. Imo, that makes it canon with the caveat that all 40k canon is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator. . Nothing since has contradicted it (nor confirmed it, to be fair). The time and place of his birth were reinforced in The Master of Mankind and that at least makes the shaman story possible.

I love those books. I even have links here to them in this thread.

And you forgot this. Perpetual Oll Persson talks to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past.

.

'

ok first of all no one fething fforgets it how can we fething forget it when you quote iot every bloody time. What people say is "look just because the Emperor is REALLY REALLY OLD, does NOT confirm the Shaman Orgin. there is, after all, a whole HOST of super duper old people, perpetuals, and they wheren't all created by the shamans now where they? hence All that passage proves is that the emperor has been around for a long time.

I have seen at least one person flat out say the shaman origin was not published anywhere (En Excelsis?). Bogus since it was published in the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. And I get 1st Edition Rogue Trader is outdated, but its there.


And I'm tired of Crimson denying the Perpetuals as proof just because he hates them. Semyon learned from Emps (and learned from the Emperor's own power and knowledge that was granted to him as the Guardian of the Void Dragon) that the Emperor has been manipulating human history for tens of thousands of years.


Should we deny the Perpetuals are proof just because a lot of people have hate boners for them(I don't mind literal hate boners, I mean just that they really hate them)? No, they are in the fluff.

But they only prove how old he he is. Not that he wasn’t changed or replaced during the DAoT. He could be 40000 years old and be Transmuted into DAoT tech. Both work fine.

And I'm saying otherwise. I got to sleep.

This has probably gone around in circles for long enough.