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pm713 wrote:

Voss wrote:
On the BA/ Dante front, it's complicated by what was a blood -theme- with communion overtones and dark hints of vampirism being discarded in favor of straightforward, actual vampirism.

Which leads to Dante completely regaining his vigor and health from eating his personal servant. He was old and aged, and then magically he wasn't, which indicates it isn't normal changes from being a space marine, but a quirk of Sanguinius' Blood or some gene seed mutation, not a property of the standard SM transformation

What?

Blood Angels? Commander Dante? The oldest living Space Marine?
The old background for BA is full of hints about blood drinking, but mostly it's a communion thing. A ritual observance, with lots of dark hints centering around how Mephiston overcame the Red Thirst (and had a statline that was exactly the same as fantasy Vampire Count).

The more recent novels, Dante and the Devastation of Baal center around Dante and the 8th edition invasion of Baal by the Tyranids. Dante is, throughout the first novel (at least the present time, non-flashback bits) and the beginning of the second, feeling old and infirm. His physical prowess is diminishing, as he has, for whatever reason, stayed away from the Blood Communion. When the invasion of Baal starts to become evident, his personal servant is noticeably concerned about his master's health and vigor as a commander at the worst possible time. So he kills himself to force Dante to drink his blood. And lo, Dante's health and vitality is instantly restored! Because they're unapologetically vampires now. They live longer, healthier lives because they drink blood. Not because they're space marines, but simply because they drink the blood of normal humans on a regular basis.

That is so dumb.

GW really is better when they don't get that detailed like that. Mystery really helps the setting.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
GW really is better when they don't get that detailed like that. Mystery really helps the setting.

Yep. Too bad that they have a whole division which sole purpose these days seems to be to destroy that mystery...

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yep, the fluff goes black library ————> studio————————————-> games

One need only look at the heresy series to know that’s the case.

Nah. The fluff goes models->studio fluff->BL. The whole thing is written to sell models, that' like it's whole purpose; BL is just expanding the fluff for toy soldiers.

From a monetary point of view yeah sure, but when it comes to quality and general cohesion it’s black library first, yep you get inconsistencies from the black library stuff from time to time, but the studio stuff is written solely to sell models, the black library stuff is wittten to entertain and it is very successful at that, a hell of a lot of people buy the books and have no part in the hobby at all, I’ve got a couple of people I work with into the novels and they have zero interest in the hobby, they just enjoy the world.

 Formosa wrote:


From a monetary point of view yeah sure, but when it comes to quality and general cohesion it’s black library first, yep you get inconsistencies from the black library stuff from time to time, but the studio stuff is written solely to sell models, the black library stuff is wittten to entertain and it is very successful at that, a hell of a lot of people buy the books and have no part in the hobby at all, I’ve got a couple of people I work with into the novels and they have zero interest in the hobby, they just enjoy the world.

I don't really agree on quality, but that is a matter of opinion, but I definitely don't agree on cohesion. Studio fluff is way more coherent. This is not surprising at all, as volume-wise, there is much less of it, and it is less detailed; easier to keep things straight. BL books are made by numerous authors working with considerable creative freedom, creating stories that need a lot of details; there is a lot more chance for inconsistencies, and indeed that is exactly what happens.

Also, I really don't get people who just read the books and are not interested in the game. If you want to just read, there is massive amount of better books, even in scifi or fantasy genres alone. If you don't care about the toy soldiers, why would you read mediocre tie-in fiction for those toy soldiers? Go read Gaiman or something else that is actually good.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


From a monetary point of view yeah sure, but when it comes to quality and general cohesion it’s black library first, yep you get inconsistencies from the black library stuff from time to time, but the studio stuff is written solely to sell models, the black library stuff is wittten to entertain and it is very successful at that, a hell of a lot of people buy the books and have no part in the hobby at all, I’ve got a couple of people I work with into the novels and they have zero interest in the hobby, they just enjoy the world.

I don't really agree on quality, but that is a matter of opinion, but I definitely don't agree on cohesion. Studio fluff is way more coherent. This is not surprising at all, as volume-wise, there is much less of it, and it is less detailed; easier to keep things straight. BL books are made by numerous authors working with considerable creative freedom, creating stories that need a lot of details; there is a lot more chance for inconsistencies, and indeed that is exactly what happens.

Also, I really don't get people who just read the books and are not interested in the game. If you want to just read, there is massive amount of better books, even in scifi or fantasy genres alone. If you don't care about the toy soldiers, why would you read mediocre tie-in fiction for those toy soldiers? Go read Gaiman or something else that is actually good.

I don['t get a guy who goes onto a background forum for a game just to shove his nose in the air say how aweful 90% of the background info is and how no one should read it. Yes you don't like 40 fiction, we get it,

thats crimson for you, reads what he wants to read, he knows I was refering to the black library series being more cohesive but he chose to not read it that way... meh...

BrianDavion wrote:

I don['t get a guy who goes onto a background forum for a game just to shove his nose in the air say how aweful 90% of the background info is and how no one should read it. Yes you don't like 40 fiction, we get it,

C'mon, if you think that BL stuff is quality literature you're deluding yourself. The fluff is fine for it's purpose, a background for a wargame. The core concepts and themes of the setting are cool, and the codex fluff is often quite sufficient in expressing them; and that indeed is from which all this originated. BL is just expanding upon that and it makes sense as some people want more detail, or immerse themselves in the game's setting in a story form; though I wish they had stuck to their own stories such as Eisenhorn or Ciaphas Cain instead of getting mired in reinterpreting the Heresy. That was definitely a thing that always worked better as vague legendary past. But yeah, ultimately if you don't care about the connection to the game, then there definitely are better books to read.

The heresy series suffers horribly because it's bloated AF, does not seem to have been planned out well other than whoa this series is selling better than we ever dreamed, print more books now. It also uses way to many authors meaning that it's tone is all over the place even with in a fairly contained story with the same characters.

I remember reading the first three books when they got released as on Omnibus. I liked all of them as Abnett, McNeil and Ben Counter are some of black libraries better writers but it was jarring going back to back between books and the style changing dramatically. The series even being a thing is something I know is divisive but if they were gonna do it, it should have been planned a bit better.

Formosa wrote:the black library stuff is wittten to entertain and

The black library stuff is written, firstly, fairly explicitly to tie into the game. They now write almost entirely about subjects with playable models, whereas previously authors made up all kinds of hairy settings like the conan the barbarian setting of Daemonworld and the slightly more recent arbites books, and also the prompts for open submissions explicitly say that your subject must be people with playable models, going into battle as they would in a game of warhammer.

Secondly, they're written to endlessly reproduce and merchandise the IP. They have a recognizable IP that became popular not just because of it's recognizable images - space marines, grimdark, etc, but because of the format and presentation they came in, those weird esoteric books full of charts, funny fonts, and random paintings of things that never made it into pewter or plastic. However, they want to pay the bills, so they transfer the recognizable elements, which are the marines and the skulls encrustation, into some books and they sell the books. They have to keep putting their name in front of the customer. The most lucrative customer is a loyal one who doesn't have too many other interests, this is true for every industry.

No, there isn't any kind of rubric by which you can determine whether novels or gaming books are more reliable, there's no material distinction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

I liked all of them as Abnett, McNeil and Ben Counter are some of black libraries better writers but it was jarring going back to back between books and the style changing dramatically.

Yes, this is very true. I don't even believe that the Loken, Torgaddon, Keiler etc from McNeil's book could be the same characters as the ones from Horus Rising.

epronovost wrote:
So we do know that Space Marine age and that as they age their bodies change on some point. A Space Marine starts it's combat life around the age of 16, so in mid-late puberty for a human being. A normal men body changes over time. At 16 men are far from having reached their peek in terms of physical strength. In fact, at equal training they barely started to surpass women of the same age in terms of physical strength and mass. As men ages they gain in muscle mass and density to reach a peek at around the age of 30-35 after which they start to decline more or less fast. Do Space Marine pass through a similar transition is a scout Space Marines less strong than a Tactical Marine due to their age difference? What do you think?

The lore says they are completely immortal, but they degrade; Iacton Cruze is a good example.

We have had marines die of old age (albeit at an accelerated rate) when the Iron Warriors fought the Hrud. As another poster mentioned the rough estimates of a Marine lifespan from that encounter places their natural life at around 3-5000 years.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
So we do know that Space Marine age and that as they age their bodies change on some point. A Space Marine starts it's combat life around the age of 16, so in mid-late puberty for a human being. A normal men body changes over time. At 16 men are far from having reached their peek in terms of physical strength. In fact, at equal training they barely started to surpass women of the same age in terms of physical strength and mass. As men ages they gain in muscle mass and density to reach a peek at around the age of 30-35 after which they start to decline more or less fast. Do Space Marine pass through a similar transition is a scout Space Marines less strong than a Tactical Marine due to their age difference? What do you think?

The lore says they are completely immortal, but they degrade; Iacton Cruze is a good example.

He's a horrid EXAMPLE, any Space Marine from the HH series is. as of the heresy era, the oldest space Marine is proably less then 300 years old. Heresy Era Marines are children compared to people like Dante etc

Dont overlook Epimethius in Pandorax. Yes, psyker, yes, grey knight, but was standing guard over the damnation cache for most of the lifetime of the imperium.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Formosa wrote:the black library stuff is wittten to entertain and

The black library stuff is written, firstly, fairly explicitly to tie into the game. They now write almost entirely about subjects with playable models,

Thing is though, that is a change, which makes the books less coherent with the ones that went before them (which didn't have that stipulation). And a lot of the older material has been retconned or directly contradicted, but still gets reprinted and kept around. (Ian Watson's Inquisitor series comes really comes to mind, as does a whole lot of old Fantasy stuff)

The second bit is also not particularly accurate, as most of the HH cast doesn't have 'playable models.' Quite a lot of them never will, as they aren't soldiers (let alone marines) that fit into the wargame.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
So we do know that Space Marine age and that as they age their bodies change on some point. A Space Marine starts it's combat life around the age of 16, so in mid-late puberty for a human being. A normal men body changes over time. At 16 men are far from having reached their peek in terms of physical strength. In fact, at equal training they barely started to surpass women of the same age in terms of physical strength and mass. As men ages they gain in muscle mass and density to reach a peek at around the age of 30-35 after which they start to decline more or less fast. Do Space Marine pass through a similar transition is a scout Space Marines less strong than a Tactical Marine due to their age difference? What do you think?

The lore says they are completely immortal, but they degrade; Iacton Cruze is a good example.

He's a horrid EXAMPLE, any Space Marine from the HH series is. as of the heresy era, the oldest space Marine is proably less then 300 years old. Heresy Era Marines are children compared to people like Dante etc

He fought just after the Unification wars, so he was older than 300 years.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
So we do know that Space Marine age and that as they age their bodies change on some point. A Space Marine starts it's combat life around the age of 16, so in mid-late puberty for a human being. A normal men body changes over time. At 16 men are far from having reached their peek in terms of physical strength. In fact, at equal training they barely started to surpass women of the same age in terms of physical strength and mass. As men ages they gain in muscle mass and density to reach a peek at around the age of 30-35 after which they start to decline more or less fast. Do Space Marine pass through a similar transition is a scout Space Marines less strong than a Tactical Marine due to their age difference? What do you think?

The lore says they are completely immortal, but they degrade; Iacton Cruze is a good example.

He's a horrid EXAMPLE, any Space Marine from the HH series is. as of the heresy era, the oldest space Marine is proably less then 300 years old. Heresy Era Marines are children compared to people like Dante etc

He fought just after the Unification wars, so he was older than 300 years.

No, because the first founding was in 790 M30. which meant by the time the Horus Heresy hit the Legions Astartes was only about 210 years old. given that all space marine canidates are recruited quite young, Cruze was likely about 230 or so when he died TOPS.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Yep, the fluff goes black library ————> studio————————————-> games

One need only look at the heresy series to know that’s the case.

Nah. The fluff goes models->studio fluff->BL. The whole thing is written to sell models, that' like it's whole purpose; BL is just expanding the fluff for toy soldiers.

Yeah you can't forget the main franchise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They do age according to the lore of sigismund. In black legion it mentions his age and describes it in a way that it could've affected his combat effectiveness in some ways.

The Space Wolves have information.
Logan Grimnar has served the Space Wolves for 500 to 800 years depending on how far forwards the story has progressed since the introduction of the Primaris Marines and is still hale and healthy. Ulrik the Slayer is the Wolf Priest who discovered Grimnar and since he was offered the title of Wolf Lord before turning it down and turning to the Wolf Priest path one can assume he was at least 200 years older than Grimnar, 200 being the minimum age for progression from Blood Claw to Grey Hunter, I say assume because Ragnar Blackmane is supposedly the only Space Wolf to jump the Grey Hunter stage to Wolf Guard, that doesn’t mean accomplishments might not make progression to Grey Hunter faster.
So, Grimnar at 500+ to 700+ and Dante holding top spot as oldest non Warp/Dreadbound/inactive Marine at 1000 to 1300 years would put Ulrik in the 700-1000 range before the arrival of Primaris Marines/Return of Girlyman/Fall of Cadia.
Space Mutts are freaks like the Blood Angels but they don’t drink blood to extend their lives so it can be assumed Space Marines are capable of a thousand years.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Space Wolves have information.
Logan Grimnar has served the Space Wolves for 500 to 800 years depending on how far forwards the story has progressed since the introduction of the Primaris Marines and is still hale and healthy. Ulrik the Slayer is the Wolf Priest who discovered Grimnar and since he was offered the title of Wolf Lord before turning it down and turning to the Wolf Priest path one can assume he was at least 200 years older than Grimnar, 200 being the minimum age for progression from Blood Claw to Grey Hunter, I say assume because Ragnar Blackmane is supposedly the only Space Wolf to jump the Grey Hunter stage to Wolf Guard, that doesn’t mean accomplishments might not make progression to Grey Hunter faster.
So, Grimnar at 500+ to 700+ and Dante holding top spot as oldest non Warp/Dreadbound/inactive Marine at 1000 to 1300 years would put Ulrik in the 700-1000 range before the arrival of Primaris Marines/Return of Girlyman/Fall of Cadia.
Space Mutts are freaks like the Blood Angels but they don’t drink blood to extend their lives so it can be assumed Space Marines are capable of a thousand years.

seems a fairly safe bet. I suspect it's likely even by M 41 no space Marine ahs died of old age.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Space Wolves have information.
Logan Grimnar has served the Space Wolves for 500 to 800 years depending on how far forwards the story has progressed since the introduction of the Primaris Marines and is still hale and healthy. Ulrik the Slayer is the Wolf Priest who discovered Grimnar and since he was offered the title of Wolf Lord before turning it down and turning to the Wolf Priest path one can assume he was at least 200 years older than Grimnar, 200 being the minimum age for progression from Blood Claw to Grey Hunter, I say assume because Ragnar Blackmane is supposedly the only Space Wolf to jump the Grey Hunter stage to Wolf Guard, that doesn’t mean accomplishments might not make progression to Grey Hunter faster.
So, Grimnar at 500+ to 700+ and Dante holding top spot as oldest non Warp/Dreadbound/inactive Marine at 1000 to 1300 years would put Ulrik in the 700-1000 range before the arrival of Primaris Marines/Return of Girlyman/Fall of Cadia.
Space Mutts are freaks like the Blood Angels but they don’t drink blood to extend their lives so it can be assumed Space Marines are capable of a thousand years.

seems a fairly safe bet. I suspect it's likely even by M 41 no space Marine ahs died of old age.

Codex Insignium mentions crippled Marines being used in none-frontline roles, like mentoring Scouts and operating logistics. Some of these Marines could've avoided contact for centuries, and could die of old age if they didn't kill themselves of boredom first...

 Haighus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Space Wolves have information.
Logan Grimnar has served the Space Wolves for 500 to 800 years depending on how far forwards the story has progressed since the introduction of the Primaris Marines and is still hale and healthy. Ulrik the Slayer is the Wolf Priest who discovered Grimnar and since he was offered the title of Wolf Lord before turning it down and turning to the Wolf Priest path one can assume he was at least 200 years older than Grimnar, 200 being the minimum age for progression from Blood Claw to Grey Hunter, I say assume because Ragnar Blackmane is supposedly the only Space Wolf to jump the Grey Hunter stage to Wolf Guard, that doesn’t mean accomplishments might not make progression to Grey Hunter faster.
So, Grimnar at 500+ to 700+ and Dante holding top spot as oldest non Warp/Dreadbound/inactive Marine at 1000 to 1300 years would put Ulrik in the 700-1000 range before the arrival of Primaris Marines/Return of Girlyman/Fall of Cadia.
Space Mutts are freaks like the Blood Angels but they don’t drink blood to extend their lives so it can be assumed Space Marines are capable of a thousand years.

seems a fairly safe bet. I suspect it's likely even by M 41 no space Marine ahs died of old age.

Codex Insignium mentions crippled Marines being used in none-frontline roles, like mentoring Scouts and operating logistics. Some of these Marines could've avoided contact for centuries, and could die of old age if they didn't kill themselves of boredom first...

I imagine they're the first to sign up for sucide missions.

BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine they're the first to sign up for sucide missions.

I'm sure they would if they could, but would they be able to? If you have a Marine that can't be sufficiently rebuilt with bionics to continue frontline service, they mustn't be far from Dreadnought levels of injuries. I can't see them being much more than a liability in a suicide mission, except in some unusually dire situations (like detonating an explosive as the Chaper's Fortress Monastery is being overrun, or maybe piloting a fireship into a huge enemy fleet above the Chapter world. Chapter planets falling is pretty uncommon though). They wouldn't be any good in any mission they have to actually fight their way to something, or they would never have been retired in the first place.

 Haighus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine they're the first to sign up for sucide missions.

I'm sure they would if they could, but would they be able to? If you have a Marine that can't be sufficiently rebuilt with bionics to continue frontline service, they mustn't be far from Dreadnought levels of injuries.

Not necessarily. Their injuries could hinder their use of battlegear in some way, or limit the time they can stay deployed. A marine must be able to use Power Armor, survive Dropship insertions and if necessary stay behind enemy lines for weeks or months.

Neural damage might make them unable to fully interface with Power Armor. Extensive internal organ damage, even if repaired, might mean they can't trust the PA automedic with keeping the marine alive - and just placing him next to the Apothecary would make him a liability in the field. Some might have rejection issues with bionics so they can't be fully restored, even if it's "just an arm".

And ofc, with knowledge lost and all, not every Chapter is able to treat every serious injury in the same way. Nameless Unremarkable Chapter from Backwater VII might have to retire marines that could still be sent back to service if they had the resources of the Iron Hands or Ultramarines.

I think an idea of an decrepit old marine seeking death in the battle like a dwarfish Slayer to avoid the indignity of dying in bed of old age is really cool. Of course because they're an incredibly experienced veteran of countless battles, they have unfortunately gotten really good at not dying in combat...

The rulebook says Marines can typically live two to three times as long as regular humans, with some for whatever reason being able to live much longer. Assuming 150 is the max life span of a regular human then most Marines would ladt 300-450 years.
Blood Angels are said to live longer than other gene-seeds, with it not being too unusual for them to live to 1000 years.
I'd imagine Primaris Marines would last longer due to their enhanced gene-seed and Custodes are biologically immortal if I recall correctly.

Animus wrote:
The rulebook says Marines can typically live two to three times as long as regular humans, with some for whatever reason being able to live much longer. Assuming 150 is the max life span of a regular human then most Marines would ladt 300-450 years.
Blood Angels are said to live longer than other gene-seeds, with it not being too unusual for them to live to 1000 years.
I'd imagine Primaris Marines would last longer due to their enhanced gene-seed and Custodes are biologically immortal if I recall correctly.

The problem with trying to get hard numbers is for 40k the average human life is all over the place. On a hive or death world, unless your very high ranking, your looking at 20 to 30 on average. On a developed and well run world like most of those in Ultramar, I'd imagine the average would be much higher. The biggest problem with reaching a truly accurate picture is that marines both have access to both much better medicine and a literally super human constitutions but are also constantly exposed to insanely dangerous situations and that would knock down your average. We have a few examples of marines semi retiring when they are in the middle ground between good for another round and dreadnought. But any Marine that got left in that in between is damaged goods and that effects the outcome and future health. The only way to know for sure would be to lock a marine in a sterile room and wait to see if he drops dead at some point.

@HoundsofDemos

Space Marines require a regular, daily if possible, medical supervision to re-balance their hormone levels to avoid them going crazy or problems. Technically, their armors also has the ability to maintain themselves. I suppose a Space Marine lifespan can be heavily affected by the quality of their medical care.

Solid point, though I suppose that is true of any living creature. Assuming ideal conditions, lack of genetic defects or illnesses (which a lot of chapters have various gene seed issues) and access to everything a being would need mentally and physically, you could probably produce something that would live far outside it's normal range of life expectancy.