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 some bloke wrote:
will a unit of lootas no longer be "Affected" by the -1 to hit models with such abilities if embarked?

I mean, to be fair -1 to hit is explicitly a modifier, so is passed along as per the Open Topped rule.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, it doesn’t. It means an outside agent can’t affect them. They can use their unit’s own rules just fine.

I don't think Dakka Dakka Dakka would affect the models inside. Othewise why wouldn't a model's own reroll aura affect itself? It's not an outside agent when it's the model's own rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
will a unit of lootas no longer be "Affected" by the -1 to hit models with such abilities if embarked?

I mean, to be fair -1 to hit is explicitly a modifier, so is passed along as per the Open Topped rule.

That's true, though such a modifier would only affect the transport if it fired at the flier, so if the transport didn't shoot the flier, it wouldn't have a modifier to pass on.

Not that I think it actually works like this, I'm trying to highlight the ludicrosity of the idea that a unit cannot be affected by its own shooting rules when embarked in a transport!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, it doesn’t. It means an outside agent can’t affect them. They can use their unit’s own rules just fine.

I don't think Dakka Dakka Dakka would affect the models inside. Othewise why wouldn't a model's own reroll aura affect itself? It's not an outside agent when it's the model's own rule.

auras and rules are 2 different things!

I really like that plasma 1s don't hurt embarked meks anymore, or any other plasma.

That "any way" rule is super powerful now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, the REAL fix for this would be for passengers in open-topped vehicles to interact on the board in every way, just like regular units, including being targeted. Passengers would get cover.

The sides of a trukk would be roaming aegis lines...pretty much exactly what they are on the models.

KFFs and auras would work, Psykers could do their thing, everything measuring from the hull. It simultaneously makes everything more powerful and more vulnerable. I don't know why GW never thought of this.

Did this thread seriously reached a second page? Wtf?

Only MODIFIERS and RESTRICTIONS pass from the transport to the embarked unit. A -1 or +1 is a modifier, cant shoot non assault weapons because you advanced is a restriction. Can shoot or charge after falling back is neither a modifier or a restriction, trigger dakkadakkadakka on 5s is also not a modifier or a restriction, same gpes for "the unit can shoot for a second time" and so none of these would apply to the embarked unit.

Ard boys, warpehead, tellyporta, traits and whatever happens before the battle can be used anywhere, as nothing has been deployed yet.

If the unit is allowed to shoot thaks to a special rule (open topped) every rule applies such as dakkadakkadakka or reroll against vehicles (tankbustas) but this special rules have to be FROM THE UNIT, NOT FROM THE TRANSPORT (unless its a modifier/restriction). If you want to shoot after the transport has fallen back thanks to Blood Axe Kultur then the EMBARKED UNIT has to be Blood Axe.

Any rule that requieres models to be within certain range (auras) or things like reanimation protocol that requires a model to be placed CAN NOT BE USED BECAUSE THE UNIT IS NOT ON THE TABLE AND SO YOU CANT MEASURE TO FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS.

Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

And I am not totally sold on the plasma not killing its bearer... BRB says "an embarked unit NORMALLY can not be affected in any way" NORMALLY being the key word, that sentense basically means nothing as you cant know what is normal and what not. The plasma exploding doesnt requiere any measure and as far as I know a model doesnt need to be on the table to be slain, so plasma affects the bearer even if he is inside a transport.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

Only MODIFIERS and RESTRICTIONS pass from the transport to the embarked unit. A -1 or +1 is a modifier, cant shoot non assault weapons because you advanced is a restriction. Can shoot or charge after falling back is neither a modifier or a restriction, trigger dakkadakkadakka on 5s is also not a modifier or a restriction, same gpes for "the unit can shoot for a second time" and so none of these would apply to the embarked unit.

Ard boys, warpehead, tellyporta, traits and whatever happens before the battle can be used anywhere, as nothing has been deployed yet.

Agreed.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

If the unit is allowed to shoot thaks to a special rule (open topped) every rule applies such as dakkadakkadakka or reroll against vehicles (tankbustas) but this special rules have to be FROM THE UNIT, NOT FROM THE TRANSPORT (unless its a modifier/restriction). If you want to shoot after the transport has fallen back thanks to Blood Axe Kultur then the EMBARKED UNIT has to be Blood Axe.

Disagree. A unit not on the battlefield cant be affected in any way.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

Any rule that requieres models to be within certain range (auras) or things like reanimation protocol that requires a model to be placed CAN NOT BE USED BECAUSE THE UNIT IS NOT ON THE TABLE AND SO YOU CANT MEASURE TO FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS.

Unless given permission by a special rule, agreed.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

And I am not totally sold on the plasma not killing its bearer... BRB says "an embarked unit NORMALLY can not be affected in any way" NORMALLY being the key word, that sentense basically means nothing as you cant know what is normal and what not. The plasma exploding doesnt requiere any measure and as far as I know a model doesnt need to be on the table to be slain, so plasma affects the bearer even if he is inside a transport.

Unless there is a FAQ saying otherwise we have to go with the transport rule : "...an embarked unit NORMALLY can not be affected in any way." We dont know what what is meant by NORMALLY. So we have to assume everything that a shooting unit normally can be affected with, which involves stratagems, re-rolls, additional attacks, weapon abilities, plus or minus to hit, etc., unless its passed along from the transport by the oppen topped rule.

I don't think there was anyone arguing that a vehicles special rules can pass onto the units inside, the main point of debate was whether units inside can be affected in any way by their own special rules when shooting out, given the wording that;

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked."

some people are arguing that this would prevent dakkax3 from "affecting" the unit in the vehicle, even if the unit has dakkax3, as they cannot be "affected".

The counter "that's just silly" field is saying that plasma overheating and the -1 to hit modifier (which would only affect the embarked models and not the transport provided the transport doesn't target the flier too and so couldn't be there to be passed on as a modifier) must not "affect" the unit either.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, got another good one for us orks - bomm squigs.

fire the weapon, after resolving the bearer is immediately slain. but no, because it can't be affected! unlimited bomm squigs!

 p5freak wrote:

Disagree. A unit not on the battlefield cant be affected in any way.

"Normally a unit cant be affected in any way'" is not a rule is just a description of how the game is going to go NORMALLY. For it to be a rule you have to say "this happens in these chases and not in these ones" or specify somewhere else what "normally" is.
If, for example, a rule gave you armor save that didn't come from an armor (idk reflexes or whatever) you dont get to say that that rule cant be used because "save: this indicates the protection a models armor gives".
It is just a silly example, but it shows that not everything that is writen is a rule, there are descriptions that shouldnt be taken into account in any way.

Even if it was a rule I dont think you get to apply ir as it says "normally this happens" because you dont know what is normal, and you dont get to say that "something is normal unless specified otherwise" either (though I admit this is arguable)

Anyway, shooting from a transport is clearly not normal as the transport has to have a special rule, and so this "rule" clearly and definitely doesnt apply.
If you have a rule that gives you rerolls you reroll the same way that if you shoot a flyer you get a -1.

Anything written in the core rules is not a rule and you decide what is a rule, and what is not

As I had pointed out earlier, they clarified the statement with actual rules in the next sentence, so you don't have to rely just on the "Normally..." statement and try to guess what's normal and what isn't. It's only when you try to parse the first statement out and ignore the actual rules statement clarifying that that they posted after the statement that you get problems.

p5freak wrote:Anything written in the core rules is not a rule and you decide what is a rule, and what is not

Show me where I can find what is normal and what not and I will be happy to admit that it is a rule and that I was wrong.

doctortom wrote:As I had pointed out earlier, they clarified the statement with actual rules in the next sentence, so you don't have to rely just on the "Normally..." statement and try to guess what's normal and what isn't. It's only when you try to parse the first statement out and ignore the actual rules statement clarifying that that they posted after the statement that you get problems.

The next sentense confirms everything Ive said, units embarked loose rules that requiere a certain range and affect OTHER units, i.e. auras.
Does dakkadakkadakka afect some other unit within a range? No, then it works on the embarked unit.
Does rerolling against vehicles affect another unit within a range? No, then it affects the embarked unit.
Does plasma exploding affect another unit within a range? No, then it affects the embarked unit.
Does "can shoot/charge after falling back" affect another unit within certain range? No, then you know what happens...

Here is the actual wording so you dont have to trust the paraphrasing:

"Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect OTHER units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

See p5freak? thats a rule, because it tells you what to do and when to do it. If you find somewhere what "normally" stands for then yes, the other sentense is also a rule.

Right now all we now is:
a) embarked unit gets modifiers and restrictions from the vehicle. So if the vehicle is within a reroll aura then the embarked unit is not affected, but, if the vehicle was within an aura that gave +1 to hit the embarked unit would be affected.
B) auras inside a vehicle are lost unless syated otherwise
C) the embarked unit is not on the table, so you cant measure to or from it and cant place extra models in formation (yet to determine if you can slain models that arent on the table)

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
...Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

So I will decide to "choose a unit" that has been reduced to 0 wounds and removed from battlefield as a target of my "Jury Rigging" stratagem to bring it back to life. After all, it only asks you to select an eligible vehicle unit in the army, and doesn't specify whether it is on the battlefield or within a range of something.

40k utilizes permissive ruleset - what you can do will be specifically stated. What you can't do will be specifically stated. Anything in between cannot be assumed as either-or.

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
...Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

So I will decide to "choose a unit" that has been reduced to 0 wounds and removed from battlefield as a target of my "Jury Rigging" stratagem to bring it back to life. After all, it only asks you to select an eligible vehicle unit in the army, and doesn't specify whether it is on the battlefield or within a range of something.

40k utilizes permissive ruleset - what you can do will be specifically stated. What you can't do will be specifically stated. Anything in between cannot be assumed as either-or.

Destroyed/ slain units are removed FROM PLAY which is not the same as remove FROM THE BATTLEFIELD.

If you had a rule that made a unit already on the battlefield to be removed from the battlefield and be set in reserve then you could target it with that strat

 p5freak wrote:

This means they cannot be affected by their own dakka dakka rule. The oppen topped rule allows them to shoot, nothing more.

Loooool.

They don't need to 'be affected'. It's their own rule. Of course they're subject to it. Like they'd be subject to the range of the weapons they are firing. They fire as they normally would. They normally have the dakka rule so guess what happens...

I can't believe you guys need an FAQ for things like this. The stratagem on passengers is perhaps confusing to some and may not be intent, but D!3 not affecting units in a transport? Get real.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
...Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

So I will decide to "choose a unit" that has been reduced to 0 wounds and removed from battlefield as a target of my "Jury Rigging" stratagem to bring it back to life. After all, it only asks you to select an eligible vehicle unit in the army, and doesn't specify whether it is on the battlefield or within a range of something.

40k utilizes permissive ruleset - what you can do will be specifically stated. What you can't do will be specifically stated. Anything in between cannot be assumed as either-or.

Destroyed/ slain units are removed FROM PLAY which is not the same as remove FROM THE BATTLEFIELD.

If you had a rule that made a unit already on the battlefield to be removed from play and be set in reserve then you could target it with that strat

But where does it say in the stratagem or the rulebook that a unit that has been removed from play does not count as a unit that is in your army?

What I'm trying to get at here is that when you try to interpret the "in between" cases in a permissive ruleset, you get these wonky RAW interactions.

Here's the case paraphrased:
1. embarked units cannot do anything when they are embarked.
2. open topped rule allows the embarked units to attack in the shooting phase.
3. shooting phase entails resolving a unit/model's to hit, to wound, to wound, & to damage mechanics using BS, S of the shooting weapon, Sv of the target, and D of the shooting weapon.
Under the shooting phase rules, there's nothing about applying abilities that would otherwise change the sequence of the shooting phase & its resolution.

Unless open topped rule specifically allows you to factor in all abilities, they cannot use any abilities unless it's something involving its BS or the weapon profile.

Well, this thread has gotten ridiculous.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Well, this thread has gotten ridiculous.

Aye.

*presses button to eject self from thread*

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
...Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

So I will decide to "choose a unit" that has been reduced to 0 wounds and removed from battlefield as a target of my "Jury Rigging" stratagem to bring it back to life. After all, it only asks you to select an eligible vehicle unit in the army, and doesn't specify whether it is on the battlefield or within a range of something.

40k utilizes permissive ruleset - what you can do will be specifically stated. What you can't do will be specifically stated. Anything in between cannot be assumed as either-or.

Destroyed/ slain units are removed FROM PLAY which is not the same as remove FROM THE BATTLEFIELD.

If you had a rule that made a unit already on the battlefield to be removed from play and be set in reserve then you could target it with that strat

But where does it say in the stratagem or the rulebook that a unit that has been removed from play does not count as a unit that is in your army?

What I'm trying to get at here is that when you try to interpret the "in between" cases in a permissive ruleset, you get these wonky RAW interactions.

Here's the case paraphrased:
1. embarked units cannot do anything when they are embarked.
2. open topped rule allows the embarked units to attack in the shooting phase.
3. shooting phase entails resolving a unit/model's to hit, to wound, to wound, & to damage mechanics using BS, S of the shooting weapon, Sv of the target, and D of the shooting weapon.
Under the shooting phase rules, there's nothing about applying abilities that would otherwise change the sequence of the shooting phase & its resolution.

Unless open topped rule specifically allows you to factor in all abilities, they cannot use any abilities unless it's something involving its BS or the weapon profile.

We agree on almost everything, but my point is that not being able to do anything is not the same as not being able to be affected by rules.
At no point the rules say that embarked units cant be afected, it just says "normally arent affected" because by not being able to be targeted by attacks and neither do anything, it limits pretty much every rule they could be affected with. By being able to shoot they suddenly get to be afected by rules that apply for shooting (and strats for this matter)

And yeah, GW should have said that a removed from play unit can not be affected in any way unless stated otherwise... but this is just GW being GW.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
...Finally, unless there is a FAQ that says otherwise (which im not going to go through), you can use a strat on an embarked unit as long as it says "choose a unit" and not "choose a unit on the battlefield" or "choose a unit within certain range of something"

So I will decide to "choose a unit" that has been reduced to 0 wounds and removed from battlefield as a target of my "Jury Rigging" stratagem to bring it back to life. After all, it only asks you to select an eligible vehicle unit in the army, and doesn't specify whether it is on the battlefield or within a range of something.

40k utilizes permissive ruleset - what you can do will be specifically stated. What you can't do will be specifically stated. Anything in between cannot be assumed as either-or.

Destroyed/ slain units are removed FROM PLAY which is not the same as remove FROM THE BATTLEFIELD.

If you had a rule that made a unit already on the battlefield to be removed from play and be set in reserve then you could target it with that strat

But where does it say in the stratagem or the rulebook that a unit that has been removed from play does not count as a unit that is in your army?

What I'm trying to get at here is that when you try to interpret the "in between" cases in a permissive ruleset, you get these wonky RAW interactions.

Here's the case paraphrased:
1. embarked units cannot do anything when they are embarked.
2. open topped rule allows the embarked units to attack in the shooting phase.
3. shooting phase entails resolving a unit/model's to hit, to wound, to wound, & to damage mechanics using BS, S of the shooting weapon, Sv of the target, and D of the shooting weapon.
Under the shooting phase rules, there's nothing about applying abilities that would otherwise change the sequence of the shooting phase & its resolution.

Unless open topped rule specifically allows you to factor in all abilities, they cannot use any abilities unless it's something involving its BS or the weapon profile.

We agree on almost everything, but my point is that not being able to do anything is not the same as not being able to be affected by rules.
At no point the rules say that embarked units cant be afected, it just says "normally arent affected" because by not being able to be targeted by attacks and neither do anything, it limits pretty much every rule they could be affected with. By being able to shoot they suddenly get to be afected by rules that apply for shooting (and strats for this matter)

Being able to attack in the shooting phase is a distinct mechanic than "act as if it were it's shooting phase (despite being embarked on a transport)."

If open topped allowed you the latter, perhaps your side of the argument would have more RAW implications AND complications. But clearly, open topped allows you to attack in the shooting phase, only.

 skchsan wrote:
Being able to attack in the shooting phase is a distinct mechanic than "act as if it were it's shooting phase (despite being embarked on a transport)."

If open topped allowed you the latter, perhaps your side of the argument would have more RAW implications AND complications. But clearly, open topped allows you to attack in the shooting phase, only.

Again, I have a rule that says "when you shoot you get extra shots on 6s".

Am I shooting? Yes, then im afected by the rule.

Is there anywhere that says an embarked unit is not affected by this? No. It just gives a description saying "normally they arent". Is there anywhere in the rulebook that defines "normal"? no, then you can not apply that sentense.

Normal doesnt mean "unless stated otherwise" because if so they would have said that instead.

An embarked unit is in play but not on the battlefield (with everything it implies) and loses any aura they had unless stated otherwise. Thats all, they are affected by every rule that may apply as normal. And NORMALLY they arent affected not because the BRB prohibits it but because by not being on the battlefield and not being able to do anything most of the rules dont have any use. Which is not the chase of some strats that dont require the unit to be on the battlefield or rules that apply when shooting and the unit gets to shoot.

I had a similar conversation with friends about SoB and their acts of faith. AoF neither say target nor is it an aura. It's it's own mess yet again. It simply says, one unit can do it.

ACTS OF FAITH
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

Do you think a SoB in a Repressor can shoot out using an AoF?

Divine Guidance: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the Shooting phase.

 deviantduck wrote:
I had a similar conversation with friends about SoB and their acts of faith. AoF neither say target nor is it an aura. It's it's own mess yet again. It simply says, one unit can do it.

ACTS OF FAITH
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

Do you think a SoB in a Repressor can shoot out using an AoF?

Divine Guidance: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the Shooting phase.

Yes they can provided you shoot with up to 6 models

No. The Repressor Firing Ports rules allows units to fire during the Shooting Phase and Acts of Faith happen at the beginning of the turn. By Transport rules, they are therefore not eligible to be picked by Acts of Faith.

 alextroy wrote:
No. The Repressor Firing Ports rules allows units to fire during the Shooting Phase and Acts of Faith happen at the beginning of the turn. By Transport rules, they are therefore not eligible to be picked by Acts of Faith.

But it says that they can shoot "as if it was the shooting phase"... dont know really.
You can choose them for your AoF no doubt, the question is wheter its a waste as you cant shoot, or if you would be able to

Unlimited bomb squigs you say....
I will pull this whenever someone tries to prevent dakkaX3, clan traits or other sheenanigans. I would need to bring some trukkin tankbustas each game just for arguments sake. That should put them on ease

As for the strategems targetting the units in transports I'm not convinced by either side of the argument... I think I will not use that untill GW answer

I honestly can't see the argument against units using their own special rules when firing out of a vehicle which allows them to shoot.

The "Normally can't be affected" is clearly an indication that, for 80% of transports, you cannot shoot out, be shot at, use auras etc. you just sit there until you get out.

Then there are rules which counteract these restrictions; the stratagem which lets officers issue orders from a chimera for a turn. The open topped rule. the rule which sounds like fire points for SoB (6 models shooting).

the route to take on this is clear:

unit in open topped transport.

can it shoot? - Yes
when does dakkax3 take effect? - When they shoot
ergo, does dakkax3 take effect when they shoot, given that they are shooting and have dakkax3? obviously.

p5freak - whilst you have been a firm supporter of units not being affected by rules besides the permission to make a shooting attack, please can you give me your standpoint on:
-overcharged plasma rolling a 1 from a vehicle
-bomm squigs being slain once they shoot from a vehicle
-the restriction that only one model may throw a grenade, from a vehicle


Regarding stratagems, provided that they target units in your army and not ones on the battlefield, they can be played on a unit in a transport. This could be a waste, as the subsequent rules may not work with a unit in a transport, but it can be played.

Regarding targeting units which have died, by all means give it a wound back, but with no rules for placing it back on the battlefield, you literally just spent CP to give a dead model a wound. it doesn't come back, it just gains a wound, and spends the rest of the game in limbo.

 some bloke wrote:

p5freak - whilst you have been a firm supporter of units not being affected by rules besides the permission to make a shooting attack, please can you give me your standpoint on:
-overcharged plasma rolling a 1 from a vehicle
-bomm squigs being slain once they shoot from a vehicle
-the restriction that only one model may throw a grenade, from a vehicle

Models embarked on an open topped transport wouldnt be affected by the blow up 1 plasma rule. I dont know the boom squig rule, so i cant comment on that one. You can throw a grenade while embarked, its just another weapon you shoot with. You can choose to shoot with whatever weapon you have on your embarked unit.

The oppen topped and transport rule is a mess, GW needs to FAQ this one. But it hasnt happened, yet. I doubt it will ever happen.

 p5freak wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

p5freak - whilst you have been a firm supporter of units not being affected by rules besides the permission to make a shooting attack, please can you give me your standpoint on:
-overcharged plasma rolling a 1 from a vehicle
-bomm squigs being slain once they shoot from a vehicle
-the restriction that only one model may throw a grenade, from a vehicle

Models embarked on an open topped transport wouldnt be affected by the blow up 1 plasma rule. I dont know the boom squig rule, so i cant comment on that one. You can throw a grenade while embarked, its just another weapon you shoot with. You can choose to shoot with whatever weapon you have on your embarked unit.

The oppen topped and transport rule is a mess, GW needs to FAQ this one. But it hasnt happened, yet. I doubt it will ever happen.

Bomm squigs rule (not got it to hand so it isn't word for word) is that the model is slain after it fires the squig bomm- and the bomm squig is equipped with the squig bomm. it represents the squig running at the tank and exploding.

Regarding grenades, would you say that the whole unit could shoot with grenades (EG 20 tankbustas in a wagon, all throwing tankbusta bomms) as they cannot be affected by the restriction of 1 per unit?

what about flamers? are they affected by the "automatic hits" rules if the unit is embarked? If so, why not the overheating of plasma? both rules are found in the same part of the shooting profile.

would an embarked SAG still deal mortal wounds?


are you, in short, stating that a unit may only shoot with the basic shooting rules, unaffected by any other rules, even those on the weapon and firing unit?

what repercussions does this have when targeting a unit which has rules which would in turn affect your attack, such as -1 to hit, +1 toughness?


Whereas, if you assume that the "normally not affected" only refers to units in closed transports, and that open topped allows the unit to shoot, with all the rules involved in shooting, then it works. it works as well as GW rules could ever allow.

I feel that this is another thread in which people are deliberately attempting to make GW rules unusable to support the idea that GW rules are unusable, when really it works fine.

 some bloke wrote:

are you, in short, stating that a unit may only shoot with the basic shooting rules, unaffected by any other rules, even those on the weapon and firing unit?

Thats what the transport/open topped rule says.

 some bloke wrote:

what repercussions does this have when targeting a unit which has rules which would in turn affect your attack, such as -1 to hit, +1 toughness?

If its a modifier or restriction that applies to the transport it would also apply to the embarked unit, thats what the open topped rule says.

Yeahhhh.. at this point this has reached the ridiculous level.
Rules for transport are perfectly clear, people trying to apply a description that says "normally models can not be affected" are the ones who are not uderstanding (or understand and are just trolling). Nowhere it is stated what "normal" stands for, and so that is not a rule, that is a description.
You are shooting, and so you are afected by everything that afects shooting with the exception of auras and similar things that need range, in which chase you have to see whether they are modifiers/restrictions or not and so apply them or not respectively.
Not worth wasting more time here, everything has been explained already.