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auticus wrote:
The skeleton kit is pretty old, but the vampire counts players were fielding them in large numbers regardless of them being an old kit as well so I don't buy the "they had old skeletons thats why they didn't sell" idea because TK and VC skeletons were from the same kit forever.

I'm strictly a casual player and know I've lost more games than I've ever won (or ever will) and the plastic skeletons did keep me from playing the army and I'm sure it kept others from playing it as well. It may not have been the only reason they didn't sell, but it sure is one of them.

I'm sure it did. That still doesn't change the fact there were about 20 vc players to every 1 tk player because of the strength of the rules and that if the TK were a busted army in 8th that they'd be around today because they would have sold a lot more.

Lets just accept that multiple reasons resulted in Tomb Kings selling poorly - many of which had nothing to do with the aesthetic of the faction itself.

I thought they got new rank and file skeletons during the 8th edition release? But my recollection is that most of the new TK stuff during the 8th edition update was out of my budget. I also remember hearing that TK were suddenly discovered to be a high tier army when AoS first came out. But by that point, GW had already stopped selling the line.

There's plenty of stuff from 8th Edition Tomb Kings that could easily get ported over to AoS. As already noted, many of their units would fit in just fine with the existing AoS aesthetic. But my guess is that it was a combination of "they weren't selling" (I was the only person at my local store who used them in WHFB), and I suspect that there was no one with any clout at GW who was particularly interested in them. Visually, imo they were quite possibly the most stunningly distinct army, and even the rank and file could look quite impressive when painted up. But the only time that you *ever* saw them in White Dwarf was when GW was attempting to expliticly promote them.

TK didnt' catch on in the early AOS days simply because there weren't many players in the early AOS days. There were no points other than fan system points and no one wanted to touch the game.

By the time there were "official points" it was clear that TK was being axed (removed from shelves and you couldn't find them anywhere except 2nd hand market) and unsupported / unavailable armies are never going to be seen for the most part, strong rules or no.

TKs didn't sell because of the nature of WHFB. I think there is a lot more demand for them now, and that they would do much better, especially of their rank and file looked better.

Honestly, just making deathrattle equivilents for most their units would be great. Let tomb king players use their models, but keep the AOS TKs rules, which frankly is one of the most fun synergistic armies out there.

I can only imagine TKs got the axe for not selling well. A combination of old, ugly models for much of the range and soft rules for quite a while (everyone values these differently, but at least one matters to almost everyone) probably helped push them into a death spiral that ended up with them just not being profitable.

If they had been selling, all GW would have had to do to keep a tight rein on its IP would be to remove options that didn't currently have a model (as per the Chapterhouse suit) and slap new, trademarked names on what was left. It would have been easy enough to do, and as they wouldn't want to drop a profitable product line, it must have been something else (and a lack of sales makes the most sense to me).

Now, I could totally see them coming back at some point, as they were very high fantasy, which fits AOS perfectly. They'd just wouldn't have options without models (as is the new standard) and would have a new set of crazy names for everything.

I could even see them as a sort of counterpoint to Nagash, a second wave of undead that align with Order over Death and hail as much from the realm of Light as that of Death. It'd be an interesting twist on the undead and fit right in with their old lore. There's plenty of shimmering sand to be had in Hysh, they're big on unchanging order, and they don't take too kindly to that upstart, Nagash.

Or just have them be death, setra becomes s God of death, and he's a thorn in the side of nagash, neutral with order and they help fight chaos like everyone else does.

auticus wrote:
....because all of the armies over represented are always the top tier armies. Since 20 years ago on until today.

You may not like it, but that seems to be how it is.

If the models were representative of a piece of feces with googly eyes but were OP as hell, you'd see them regularly.

Tomb Kings were one of the weakest armies in 8th edition. To try and say that had nothing to do with why they were not selling is to be putting your head into the sand.

Vampire counts used a lot of the same models and you saw skeleton armies regularly over there.

Because vampire counts had vastly stronger rules.

When Tomb Kings were first made into their own army in 6th edition there was a large following for them, because they were at least mid tier in 6th edition. When they got t heir 8th army book, pretty much every tomb king player on the internet, big tournaments, and locally changed armies and were waiting for them to get a book that wasn't a paper tiger. Then AOS happened. Tomb Kings were one of if not the worst army in 8th edition from a power gamer perspective, and their sales reflected that. And some of those newer kits like the sphinx were pretty cool. The skeleton kit is pretty old, but the vampire counts players were fielding them in large numbers regardless of them being an old kit as well so I don't buy the "they had old skeletons thats why they didn't sell" idea because TK and VC skeletons were from the same kit forever until a few years ago.

And it should be pointed out that it was partly because of some very clunky mechanics incorporated in to that army along with Vampire Counts doing literally everything better and cheaper short of shooting and chariot spam.

7th Ed Vampire Counts Book resolved many of the issues that both Undead books had in 6th, but Tomb Kings were left out in the cold. The 8th Book brought them up to match that power, but was still a little clunky and the amazing new models were a bit on the expensive side (GW went through a price upgrade about the same time). It also didn't help that many of those amazing models were countered by many of the 8th Edition rules which tended to screw Monster-sized models.

It didn't help much that it wasn't too much time later that 8th Vampire Counts came out and raised the bar even further.

Which is a shame because their fluff was very interesting. Undead who still act much like they did in life and actually still have their whits about them(more or less). Tilling fields, growing crops, engaging in diplomacy and trade, etc... Even the little bit we got about what they were like before becoming Undead was interesting. An entire human civilization that existed prior to when Sigmar was a mortal.

Aesthetically they didn't have much that was trademarkable, but the fluff was a unique spin on things vs the Vampire Counts who are very stereotypical.

EnTyme wrote:

FrozenDwarf wrote:
and this is allso must likely why the fantasy armys dont get updates or new additions.

And yet four releases in the last year (Legions of Nagash, Daughters of Khaine, Nighthaunts and Beasts of Chaos) were factions ported over in whole or in part from Fantasy.

And how many of those newer kits were designed after the Chapter House debacle? They are purposefully made to be protectable, and the TK were not.

GW should have come to some accord with Chapterhouse to both of their and our benefit.

If GW had decided to extend license to Chapter House to allow upgrades to existing kits, it would have worked out EXACTLY as you suggest. However, I don't think GW even likes video game companies using their IP. If it were up to them, they'd make their OWN video games and charge about 250% over what every other video game costs.

 Just Tony wrote:

EnTyme wrote:

FrozenDwarf wrote:
and this is allso must likely why the fantasy armys dont get updates or new additions.

And yet four releases in the last year (Legions of Nagash, Daughters of Khaine, Nighthaunts and Beasts of Chaos) were factions ported over in whole or in part from Fantasy.

And how many of those newer kits were designed after the Chapter House debacle? They are purposefully made to be protectable, and the TK were not.

Like I said the Daughters of Khaine just got harpies and medusa. The only thing GW has moved to protect is the name itself. Heck even the name "Melusai" is hardly different to medusa; just like Aelf is just elf with an A thrown in front. Plus the melusai have a form where they fighting with bows and arrows - right out the greek mythology! Meanwhile Morathi is a winged medusa with a head of snakeshair, again in keeping with the old greek themes in their mythologies.

And those are all new kits and were likely designed well after Chapterhouse. Basically GW is moving to protect the name, but they can't protect the designs or the concepts as most are generic or simplistic.

Aelf is just a take on the Old English ælf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf#Etymology

Good find.

 Ghaz wrote:
Aelf is just a take on the Old English ælf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf#Etymology

To quote the Painty Men: "You'll find the 'A' is for Attitude."

The Melusai are more Naga than gorgon.
So more Hindu/Buddhist than Greek.

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


This argument just doesn't hold water.

It does if you have even a passing familiarity with IP law.

Please explain to me how any of the other armies I mentioned are easier IPs to protect than the Tomb Kings were. I think shinros' source has it right. Tomb Kings were cancelled because they weren't selling.

But things like beastmen were?

Beastmen army book wasn't the worst army book of 8th, like Tomb Kings were.

I saw plenty of Tomb Kings in 6th/7th.

I don't doubt Bretonnians were squat'ed for trademarking reasons, however. They were definitely the range you could most easily acquire from third parties, be it dedicated fantasy knights or even historicals.

Tomb Kings might well have not been the last had we kept Kirby and had AoS remained on its original course. In fact I'd wager we might have seen many many factions and races just outright dropped. It was a totally different approach to the wargame and alien to what most of us would consider logical. Even bad selling Tomb Kings most of us would just say "ok so make 1 or 2 new hero or warrior models and then release an updated battletome. Heck if you're that worried about speed print the rules in the next White Dwarf and make it a special.

However if the GW engine wasn't even "taking customer feedback" chances are the higher ups didn't even become properly aware that rules were one of the core issues.

 Arbitrator wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


This argument just doesn't hold water.

It does if you have even a passing familiarity with IP law.

Please explain to me how any of the other armies I mentioned are easier IPs to protect than the Tomb Kings were. I think shinros' source has it right. Tomb Kings were cancelled because they weren't selling.

But things like beastmen were?

Beastmen army book wasn't the worst army book of 8th, like Tomb Kings were.

I saw plenty of Tomb Kings in 6th/7th.

Beastmen weren't exactly a strong army despite being one of the last army books of 7th (and being almost completely useless from the time that Daemons and Warriors of Chaos came out). A lot of the 8th Ed changes did screw up their book pretty good, especially when their new monsters were completely screwed over when combining their rules with 8th's changes.

Anecdotally, I saw more Tomb Kings on the table than Beastmen, but only after Tomb Kings got their 8th Edition book. Every gamer garage sale had Beastmen for sale, but it was rare to see anything Tomb King. Often I saw more Vampire kits for sale there.

Tomb Kings 8th Book was actually pretty good when it came out, but it gets depressing when you finally get your feet under you and then your popular cousin shows up and steals all the attention. And every Tomb Kings player I heard/read was extremely upset when Vampires got their 8th Ed Book.

 Arbitrator wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:


This argument just doesn't hold water.

It does if you have even a passing familiarity with IP law.

Please explain to me how any of the other armies I mentioned are easier IPs to protect than the Tomb Kings were. I think shinros' source has it right. Tomb Kings were cancelled because they weren't selling.

But things like beastmen were?

Beastmen army book wasn't the worst army book of 8th, like Tomb Kings were.

I saw plenty of Tomb Kings in 6th/7th.

I don't doubt Bretonnians were squat'ed for trademarking reasons, however. They were definitely the range you could most easily acquire from third parties, be it dedicated fantasy knights or even historicals.

Beastmen didn't even have an 8th army book. Tomb Kings were certainly not the worst book of 8th that's skaven without a doubt.

If monsters sucked, and most the army had to be old bone boys, then why are people surprised their new models didn't sell well?

Beastmen were equally garbage rules-wise in 8th edition.

Beastmen suffered from that old "written in one edition but balanced towards the next" that used to plague a lot of armies in the past. Basically you were too good in the edition you came out, but because you couldn't be written completely under the new edition's standard you sucked once the edition changed.

Beastmen were always protected by being thematic and useful for the IP behind warhammer in a way tomb kings never could be

Never mind that the AoS God of Death IS Khemri... Just keep walking, nothing to see here.

 Charistoph wrote:
Never mind that the AoS God of Death IS Khemri... Just keep walking, nothing to see here.

So Nagash hasn't eating him yet?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Never mind that the AoS God of Death IS Khemri... Just keep walking, nothing to see here.

So Nagash hasn't eating him yet?

Nagash IS Khemri in origin. He's the cause of the Vampires as well as the wakening of the Khemri dead.

 Just Tony wrote:

And how many of those newer kits were designed after the Chapter House debacle? They are purposefully made to be protectable, and the TK were not.

Some of the new 8th Edition Tomb King kits were quite protectable. The Necrosphinx and the Warsphinx are both very distinct in design. Of course, there's always the "this monster that I bought from another company is what I'm using as my Necrosphinx even though it only resembles the original in the fact that it's a giant undead construct". But the Necropolis Knight and Sepulchural Stalker (the models made from the snake-thing kit) are so unusual that if you released something even remotely resembling them, with an ancient Egyptian motif, I suspect that GW would have grounds to go after you.

The other new kits that I recall - the skeleton warriors (which updated the weapons to be more thematic - no more flails, for instance) and the Tomb Guard - were the sort of thing that someone could get away with by just saying "They're Egyptian skeletons". But you could do something similar for the basic models for pretty much any of the armies in the game. That's not something that was specific to the Tomb Kings. The rest of the models were old, but brought forward.

And that left the two missing models (or more accurately, one and a half). The Necrolith Colossus didn't have an official model released, but was pretty clearly supposed to be the place where you could stick your old Chiqita Banana bone giant (which was otherwise removed from the army list; the description in the fluff made it clear that a bone giant was one form of a Colossus). And then, of course, there's the Hierotitan, which was brand new for 8th edition, was probably intended to be part of a dual-purpose kit for the Colossus, and never got an official model. Players were pretty happy when it turned up in Total War: Warhammer 2. And they look amazing in that game.

The irony, as others have noted, is that all of the new models would fit right in with where GW appears to want to take Age of Sigmar. And many of the old models - Ushabti, Scorpions, the Casket of Skulls, and the Screaming Skull Catapult - would all fit in, as well. Plus, many of the Tomb Kings characters would work well with the new takes on characters that we've seen. For instance, while Allarielle rides into battle on a giant beetle, the body of Prince Apophas is made up of beetles, with a human skull at the top.



Random fun item - there's a video showing 20 Hierotitans (and Settra) squaring off against over 11,000 rank and file undead in a custom Total War: Warhammer 2 battle. All of the Tomb King "units" end the battle at full health.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Never mind that the AoS God of Death IS Khemri... Just keep walking, nothing to see here.

So Nagash hasn't eating him yet?

Nagash IS Khemri in origin. He's the cause of the Vampires as well as the wakening of the Khemri dead.

I think the word that you're looking for is "Khemrian". Khemri is the place. Khemrian is the adjective used to describe someone or something from there.