Better character targeting rules.

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**Wyldhunt**

niv-mizzet wrote:
I do wish limited IC rules were reinstated. Close-range support characters like chaplains have a very difficult job because the rules are not friendly to them. They get outpaced and left behind by squads they’re supposed to be leading, they’re incredibly easy to assassinate in combat, (assuming they make it there,) they’re very easy to assassinate if they didn’t make it to the combat by simply moving over or around the squad that charged ahead, they need a dude from the squad to stay back from the combat so that he can be told to tell the rest of his unit to fight better, and that’s assuming their aura is “unit in range” rather than “models in range,”...their problems are abundant.

What I would like to see is:
-character can’t be targeted when a friendly unit is right next to him, closest model be damned. (Perhaps this can be limited to units that match unit type keywords.)

-ONE character (per unit) can combine his charge attempt with a nearby friendly unit and move along with them.

-characters get some form of targeting protection in melee. Perhaps enemy models may only attack the character if they have no other targets to swing at.

I like this. The full IC rules were kind of ugly from a design perspective. They added tons of little exceptions and additional rules just to handle the concept of, "This is a separate unit, but it counts as part of this other unit, but only sometimes."

Your suggestion would fix a lot of the biggest issues with characters being unattached and would open the door for buffs to a few unpopular picks. A wingless hive tyrant, for instance, could hide behind some carnifexes or other tyranid monsters. A farseer on bike suddenly has a better reason to hang out in a bike-themed list than on his own. You'd probably want to exempt knights-turned-character from this though. They're enough of a pain without being able to force you to only shoot at the guy they buffed with stratagems.

Xenomancer's proposal has its merits, but I'd worry about tunnel vision rhinos and how various rules would interact with a "unit" dying but the last member of that unit (the character) not dying as he instantly attaches to a new 30 man squad of ork boyz or whatever. Would I get to soulburst or trigger stratagems that depend on a unit's death? Would I score kill points for that turn? Plus, limiting it to only one character per unit suddenly makes some meh characters even less appealing. An apothecary would be seen less often, for instance, as he would now prevent his captain from buffing the unit he was going to hang out with.

**Zustiur**

Lose the closest target bit. Heroes should lead from the front.

A character may not be selected as a target if they are within 2" of a visible unit which shares a unit type keyword with the character. E.g. infantry protect other infantry. Infantry do not protect bikes.

**Dandelion**

Zustiur wrote:
Lose the closest target bit. Heroes should lead from the front.

A character may not be selected as a target if they are within 2" of a visible unit which shares a unit type keyword with the character. E.g. infantry protect other infantry. Infantry do not protect bikes.

Actually, not a bad idea I think. Less micro, and easily verified. Kinda replicates the joining of squads without the hassle. And snipers still work.

Buuut... only caveat is we'd need some distinction between unit type keywords, and regular keywords (like FLY). Otherwise, I like it.

**Zustiur**

Dandelion wrote:

Actually, not a bad idea I think. Less micro, and easily verified. Kinda replicates the joining of squads without the hassle. And snipers still work.

Buuut... only caveat is we'd need some distinction between unit type keywords, and regular keywords (like FLY). Otherwise, I like it.

True, that phrasing is based on the rule set that I've been working on lately.

Easy fix though. '... That shares any of the following key words: infantry, bike, monster, vehicle...' I won't list them all coz I'm sure I'll forget some right now.

**Blackie**

What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.

**niv-mizzet**

Blackie wrote:
What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.

There are some very common issues, like a unit behind a wall being closer and stopping you from shooting a character in plain view, a unit being closer to you but in the entirely opposite direction shielding the character, the weird times when character shielding suddenly doesn’t work when it probably should like with the gsc mind control power, and then the pile of issues that close range support characters deal with where they get left behind by units that they’re leading, and are super easy to get in position to assassinate before touching their escort, or simply pick them out in melee and drop them first.

**BaconCatBug**

Blackie wrote:
What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.

Because this is now the norm in 8th.

Spoiler:

At least when you couldn't shoot characters joined in units it somewhat made sense.

**Xenomancers**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Blackie wrote:
What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.
Because this is now the norm in 8th.

Spoiler:

At least when you couldn't shoot characters joined in units it somewhat made sense.

Excellent illustration of my frustration with the game.

**Spoletta**

Dandelion wrote:
Zustiur wrote:
Lose the closest target bit. Heroes should lead from the front.

A character may not be selected as a target if they are within 2" of a visible unit which shares a unit type keyword with the character. E.g. infantry protect other infantry. Infantry do not protect bikes.

Actually, not a bad idea I think. Less micro, and easily verified. Kinda replicates the joining of squads without the hassle. And snipers still work.

Buuut... only caveat is we'd need some distinction between unit type keywords, and regular keywords (like FLY). Otherwise, I like it.

This is the best way to do it,and since AoS has this exact system i wouldn't be surprised if it gets into 40K too.

Also, i would go full AoS and say that there is no keyword restriction, but only units with at least 3 models can screen. This way you prevent dumb situations with flyers, knights and vehicles in general screening a dude. A dude standing next to a tank is a clear target.

**Dandelion**

Spoletta wrote:

Also, i would go full AoS and say that there is no keyword restriction, but only units with at least 3 models can screen. This way you prevent dumb situations with flyers, knights and vehicles in general screening a dude. A dude standing next to a tank is a clear target.

Honestly, I don't think we even need that extra rule, at least for now. Just be 2" from friendly units. The main thing I want to stop is being flanked by solo characters but being unable to target them. If they bring a tank, at least I can shoot that first then the character.

**Blackie**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Blackie wrote:
What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.
Because this is now the norm in 8th.

Spoiler:

At least when you couldn't shoot characters joined in units it somewhat made sense.

Something like this never happened in one of my games but I understand your point, that scenario looks quite absurd and somehow wrong.

**IHateNids**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Blackie wrote:
What's the problem with the current "character targeting" rules? They look fine to me, I've never even considered changing them.

There are some very common issues, like a unit behind a wall being closer and stopping you from shooting a character in plain view, a unit being closer to you but in the entirely opposite direction shielding the character, the weird times when character shielding suddenly doesn’t work when it probably should like with the gsc mind control power, and then the pile of issues that close range support characters deal with where they get left behind by units that they’re leading, and are super easy to get in position to assassinate before touching their escort, or simply pick them out in melee and drop them first.

Quoted for Truth

postponed my return to the edition by a good three months because my opponent was TFG about this exact issue. There was like 0.3" in it as well...

**some bloke**

Sounds like a simple fix:

characters can't be targeted if there is either a unit of the same type within 3" and closer to the attacking model than the character, or a unit directly between the character and the attacking model.

so a character can dart into a crowd, or hide behind one, but a biker character next to infantry - well, we can aim at that.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Nah, Biker characters should still be safe.

**vict0988**

Xenomancers wrote:
Wouldn't this system work better?

Characters of 9 wounds or less can join units.
Only one Character can join a single unit.
Characters can not take hits in a unit until every model in that unit is removed.
Characters that are part of a unit that is completely destroyed can join another unit within 3" if their unit is completely destroyed (this happens immediately when the unit is destroyed).
If a character is the only visible model in a unit the unit can be selected as a target.
If a unit is completely destroyed due to a leadership check - the character remains and is unaffected - it can still join another unit within 3 inches.

So basically this what is good about 7th edition character rules combined with what is good about 8th. It's hard for me to imagine any intelligent human being coming up with the character rules in 8th. They are so horrendously bad - I just want to quit games sometimes because of how stupid they are. No LOS obviously - that was also a really stupid mechanic. However the rules in 8th for character targeting are even worse.

Obviously we don't want characters to be freely targeted - they would be focused and killed too easily.
but
We obviously don't want situations where you can not shoot anything in a turn when you have multiple visible targets to shoot at.

Any other suggestions to improve upon this set of rules? What do you think? Wouldn't this make a better game?
(Edit:removed 2 unnecessary lines / 1 character per unit max)

7th ed was way worse lol. LOS was horrible, dragged games to a halt and made some units a pain to deal with, the current run of things is nothing compared to that gak.

Characters being untargetable because of a unit that I can't shoot is in front of them happens very rarely in my games, usually I can see both or neither. Characters being the only thing I can shoot, but then being unable to do even that because there is a unit I cannot see that is hidden from me hasn't happened to me as far as I remember. If your opponent is being too much of a dick with his strategies try to run some mobile units that can get to him, Scions, Destroyers, Windriders, Venoms.

No I don't want things to become more complicated, characters shielding characters was silly, but the current way of things works pretty well for me.

One easy fix is that you cannot target Characters with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 with Shooting attacks in the Shooting phase if they are within 3" of another unit that is not also a Character with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10.

That just means you cannot outmanouvre your opponent with a Flyer or a Deep Strike to abuse your opponent not properly bubble-wrapping, that might just be another bonus for your playgroup.

**JNAProductions**

vict0988 wrote:
Characters being untargetable because of a unit that I can't shoot is in front of them happens very rarely in my games, usually I can see both or neither. Characters being the only thing I can shoot, but then being unable to do even that because there is a unit I cannot see that is hidden from me hasn't happened to me as far as I remember. If your opponent is being too much of a dick with his strategies try to run some mobile units that can get to him, Scions, Destroyers, Windriders, Venoms.

Using the rules isn't being a jerk.

**vict0988**

JNAProductions wrote:
vict0988 wrote:
Characters being untargetable because of a unit that I can't shoot is in front of them happens very rarely in my games, usually I can see both or neither. Characters being the only thing I can shoot, but then being unable to do even that because there is a unit I cannot see that is hidden from me hasn't happened to me as far as I remember. If your opponent is being too much of a dick with his strategies try to run some mobile units that can get to him, Scions, Destroyers, Windriders, Venoms.

Using the rules isn't being a jerk.

Sorry I didn't know the dictionary definition of jerk. "if your opponent keeps using this cheesy strategy try to run..."