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Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
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Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 16 | Current main painting project: Star Fleet Battles ships
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Monopose dark vengance ones can still be modified easily enough to go to autocannons or twin laz. Its the fist thats hard to change.
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




UK

macluvin wrote:
I always wanted terminators to work on the tabletop. The reaper autocannon and Combi-Plasma Powerax Termies seem like a half decent elites choice now with endless cacophony and 10 point reaper autocannons!


The question is still why you would do that when Oblits are better at 24" and 12", don't blow themselves up on 1's, and cheaper for roughly equivalent survivability (Oblits are more survivable vs 2D, but less vs 1D and 3D).

About the only reason I can see to run Terms over Oblits would be if you were maxing out a 10man squad, and that's a pretty sizeable investment, not only in points, but in fighting force that doesn't contribute anything to the first turn of the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 02:05:04


   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Huron can only cast a second time once per game? Where's that coming from?

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Huron can only cast a second time once per game? Where's that coming from?


He can cast once. But he has a special rule, his familiar, that lets him cast a second time.

...

Which I now see is not use-limited. Let me fix that.

Fixed!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 03:11:04


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 03:36:58


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




I was thinking defilers and contemptors would be fun
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?


I am thinking skip the superheavies. The LOS didnt get a points drop. For the same points, you can literally get 4 defilers or 2 defilers and 2 forgefiends now. And the equivalent number of points in daemon engines and hellbrutes will work out to more wound, more firepower and with far more flexibility than just one superheavy. Its a pity cos I really loved my LOS model, but I think only bring them out if you are in a casual setting.

Probably the only superheavy close to worth it would be a renegade knight with twin avenger gratling. But thats still close to 500 points. You can now get a heck of a lot of hellbrutes, forgefiends, defilers for the same number of points. Of course, if you want to get them all PLUS get a renegade knight too, then be my guest. Super massive armor saturation! lol

I predict that Str 7 weapons might be useful again. All the loyalist dreads got a point drop too. We are likely to see T7 dreadnaughts far more often on the field now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 04:28:10


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It may also be worth noting that Noise Marines can be decent as troops. They are certainly better as troops than regular CSM. Maybe give them a B when they are troops.

As a wider strategy, how well can Chaos do swarming walkers/daemon engines? Especially with the points changes, it seems like this approach could be quite effective. Do a super heavy (knight or lord of skulls or perhaps even Kytan) and then a ton of fiends and helbrutes? Any troops would be in rhinos. And then of course characters for buffs. You can flood the board with t7 and t8 targets only, which will get into CC turn 2 even against opponents who deploy at the back of their deployment zone.

Could this work out now?


I am thinking skip the superheavies. The LOS didnt get a points drop. For the same points, you can literally get 4 defilers or 2 defilers and 2 forgefiends now. And the equivalent number of points in daemon engines and hellbrutes will work out to more wound, more firepower and with far more flexibility than just one superheavy. Its a pity cos I really loved my LOS model, but I think only bring them out if you are in a casual setting.

Probably the only superheavy close to worth it would be a renegade knight with twin avenger gratling. But thats still close to 500 points. You can now get a heck of a lot of hellbrutes, forgefiends, defilers for the same number of points. Of course, if you want to get them all PLUS get a renegade knight too, then be my guest. Super massive armor saturation! lol

I predict that Str 7 weapons might be useful again. All the loyalist dreads got a point drop too. We are likely to see T7 dreadnaughts far more often on the field now.


Yeah, I agree. My thinking with the LoW is to have 1 giant beatstick unit that's going to draw all the fire off the little guys. Lord of Skulls Or Kytan will rip up other super heavies in melee all day because their melee is great and the chaos synergy is great. Warp time, full reroll hits and wounds from auras, or full reroll hits and wounds from Daemonforge. And there are other decent strats. An IW Lord of Skulls can use their 6+++ strat each turn. So the point of the LoW would be to focus buffs in one area. The point of taking several daemonengines instead would be more targets and more pressure.

I'm thinking Tzeentch daemon engines may be the best option because if you bring some Thousand Sons, the mutalith can hand out a lot of buffs, and it can use them on any Tzeentch unit. Bring a detachment of 1ksons for some princes, ahriman, and a mutalith or two (and perhaps MSU cultists or tzaangors to make it a battalion). Couple that with Renegades or Iron warrior Tzeentch marked daemon engines.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





If you take a heretic astartes detachment, do individual units within that detachment still have a legion? Say if you took Abaddon in that detachment he would still be black legion? How would you allocate a legion to other units so that he could buff them? And could you take berserkers as troops because they would be still be worldeaters but in a heretic astartes legion.
The FAQ for berserkers says:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters
Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’

It doesn't say they have to be in a world eaters detachment. I notice battlescribe let's you take berserkers as troops in a heretic astartes detachment but I wouldn't trust that. Is there a specific rule I'm missing here? Thanks

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Abaddon rerolls onlu affect black legion. World eaters beserkers are not black legion. There isnt a sneaky trick to allow you to take them as troops and get the rerolls. If you mix legions in the same detachment then the detachment doesnt get any legion benifit.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?

   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Abaddon303 wrote:
No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?


You need to reread the rules of how to gain Legion tactics. The whole detachment has to be from one legion in order to get a legion tactic. So you can't mix them in the same detachment if you want their legion boni, only in the same army.
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




UK

You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 14:25:46


   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




 Ap0k wrote:
You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.


The answer is no. All units in one detachment have to have the same LEGION, if they don't, they won't belong to any legion. So with Abaddon you can only have a Black Legion detachment, where Berzerkers and Noise Marines can never be troop choices, as only WE/EC become troop choices, not Black Legion Berzerkers/ Noise Marines. You can connect them via heretic astartes to play them, but that means no legion bonus, no nothing, no troop choice.

   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Right. Let’s clear this up.

FAQ 1.3 p1: EC Noise Marines are Troops. WE Berzerkers are Troops. No other qualifiers are given.

Codex CSM p156: ‘Chaos Space Marine unit’ is shorthand for BL, WB, IW, AL, NL, WE, EC, FALLEN, and RED CORSAIRS (but not DG or TS). A CSM detachment is one which only includes units with one of these keywords.

Troops in CSM detachments gain Despoilers of the Galaxy.

CCSM, p157: Legion traits are unlocked by being in a detachment of a single Legion.

CCSM, p 158: CCSM Stratagems are unlocked by taking a CSM Detachment.

So. Battalion:
- Abaddon WARLORD
- Khârn
- EC Sorcerer
- WE Berzerkers
- EC Noise Marines
- BL Cultists

The Zerks, NMs, and Cultists get ObSec. Abaddon’s aura gives everyone Fearless and the Cultists & himself rerolls to hit. Kharn’s aura gives the Zerks rerolls to hit. Nobody gets a LEGION trait. CCSM Stratagems are unlocked (and the LEGION ones can be used on each LEGION’s units). Abaddon gives bonus CP, and the EC Sorcerer (who, incidentally, can cast Warptime on the Berzerkers) can have a Relic because the Warlord is a CSM.

Add a Vanguard:
- WE Warpsmith
- WE Helbrute
- WE Helbrute
- WE Helbrute

All four of these units benefit from their LEGION trait. They benefit from Kharn’s aura. The Zerks and Khârn still do not get their LEGION traits.

   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




UK

The Zerks, NMs, and Cultists get ObSec


Nope. A 'Chaos Space Marine' detachment is defined as one where all units share the same legion keyword. (edit: Actually, I see how that can be read the other way now - GJ with the phrasing GW! The below would be incorrect under the alternative interpretation, in that case).

What you have is a [HERETIC ASTARTES] battalion, which doesn't get anything except what's built into the units. The warlord can get a CSM warlord trait and unlock a relic because that's specifically mentioned in the Warlord rules section of the book, but that's it.

CCSM Stratagems are unlocked (and the LEGION ones can be used on each LEGION’s units)


Also no, for the same reason as above.

Everything else was spot on, though.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 16:13:20


   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

CCSM pg156 defines a CSM unit as any unit which has one of the LEGION keywords other than DG or TS. It then defines a CSM detachment as one which only includes units with one of those LEGION keywords. It does not define it as a detachment in which every unit has the same LEGION keyword.

P157 goes on: “If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY , BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion.”

The terminology is quite different. If CSM Detachments needed to be mono-LEGION, they’d likely have used the terminology they used for a LEGION detachment. So, this leaves open the possibility of a CSM detachment with several different LEGION keywords.

Examples of a HERETIC ASTARTES Detachment could include:

- Battalion: Abaddon, Worldclaimer, three BL Heretac squads (which is also a BL & CSM Detachment, gaining their LEGION trait and unlocking CSM Stratagems)
- Vanguard: Lucius, Iron Warriors Chosen, Night Lords Possessed, Alpha Legion Helbrute (which is also a CSM detachment, unlocking CSM Stratagems)
- Super Heavy Detachment: World Eaters Lord of Skulls, Magnus the Red (Warlord), and Mortarion (which unlocks a TS Relic for, say, a Tzaangor Shaman in a TZEENTCH Vanguard with Flamers and a Changecaster)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote:
No I get that Ab can't buff them because they'd be different legions, but they can both be taken in the same detachment then?
I'm not sure what the advantage would be, but an extension of that. Could you take a unit of noise marines and a unit of berserkers as troops in the same detachment?


To return to this issue at hand: I believe the Battalion:
- Abaddon WARLORD
- Khârn
- EC Sorcerer
- WE Berzerkers
- EC Noise Marines
- BL Cultists
is completely legal, and it seems perfectly viable. The Noise Marines don’t particularly suffer from losing their LEGION trait, Berzerkers already inflict severe damage without +1A, the Cultists don’t care about losing out on +1Ld as Abby makes them Fearless, the Sorcerer can make the glass cannon units extremely effective, and the +7CP will cover several VotLW activations and a Tide of Traitors and plenty of rerolls on key casts and advances and DTW and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THAT SAID, if this proves awesome and popular, don’t be surprised if the Zerks and NMs get changed to be Troops only in mono-Legion Detachments.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 17:59:04


   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




UK

What I mean is that the following statement is ambiguous:

"‘Chaos Space Marine unit’ is shorthand for BL, WB, IW, AL, NL, WE, EC, FALLEN, and RED CORSAIRS (but not DG or TS). A CSM detachment is one which only includes units with one of these keywords."

It can be read as 'A CSM detachment is one which includes one (and only one) of these keywords', and it can also be read as 'A CSM detachment is one which includes any of the following keywords (in any combination)'.

If you take the first interpretation, then EC Noise Marines alongside WE Zerkers would prevent it being a CSM detachment (but would remain a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment), whilst the alternate interpretation would work as you describe above.


   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Thanks guys, well I'm glad that turned out not to be a stupid question! I just noticed the wording and thought it was open to interpretation. Losing legion trait isn't really the end of the world as most are pretty useless. Abaddon's fearless bubble works on any heretic astartes so any cultists would still receive the buff.
Just seems a good way of avoiding troop tax taking units you'd probably already take.
I think the fact the rule regarding what is a CSM detachment mentions fallen would imply that the detachment doesn't have to be all the same legion.

   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/11 20:44:27


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Tad much in support charachters no?

Atleast a csm Sorcerer, mutalith, herald. Not to mention that both prescience and warptime need to go off.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Yep thats the same kind of tricks you can do with any marine demons / chaos demons. Tzeentch really can boost a lot of things to silly levels, the issue is the cost of the units your going to try these tricks on, how durable are they by themselves, and what can they do if things go wrong like you dont get those spells off or the enemy kills your vortex beasts before the target boostable unit gets into range to fight. Its why i love my defiler, its able to be boosted different ways to get the same awsome results but even if things go bad I can drop a cp for demonforged and get rerolls to hit and wound.

For slaanesh though i like the maulerfiend. M10, put next to a slaanesh herald on steed so it can advance and charge, have a sorcerer cast warptime and delightful agonies on it for (10+d6) x2 + 2d6 movement turn 1 on a unit with t7, 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds that can put out 10 attacks in cc vs something you want dead.... thats speed in a can of whoop ass right there.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Not Online!!! wrote:


Tad much in support charachters no?

Atleast a csm Sorcerer, mutalith, herald. Not to mention that both prescience and warptime need to go off.


It is a lot of support characters, but you don't necessarily need them all for it to be good. And you're probably going to be taking a lot of support characters in a chaos force in general. They are also decent on their own.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

With regard to Possessed, I suspect there’s nasty surprises that can be pulled with them and Fabius Bile. If they have MoS and you dose them in the enemy movement phase after you’ve cast DA, then on average you’ll only lose one.

Another unit that could be very interesting for him to soup up would be Poxwalkers. Replenishable, snowballable...

I’ve got a lot of Slaanesh in my Word Bearers, and a growing sideboard of zombies. I might give this a try in the new year...

   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

 ZergSmasher wrote:
For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.


The double Gat Knight is never a bad option... honestly, I would always use mine if I could; he is very good. Really we have to see where the meta shifts.

I will say combining Renegade Knights with a Poxbringer w/ shriveling pox has become one of my favorite strats....

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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 16:00:49


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

Azuza001 wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Back to the issue of tactica, another interesting unit to consider is max sized possessed squads. Possessed are certainly inferior to berzerkers at small sizes, but at bigger they may be worth considering as a high pressure death star. This is because the are relatively durable, and get more and more out of buff synergy the bigger they are. And of course can get Daemon buffs too.

Slaaneshi possessed backed up with FNP power are very strong. A slaaneshi daemon herald can give them an extra strength and make them fight again with a power.

Tzeentch may be the best though, as there's a huge amount of buffs that can be stacked on them:

+1 strength from herald
+1 A, Str, or T from Boon of Change (discipline of Tzeentch)
+1 to invul from Weaver of Fates (Dark Hereticus version)
+1 Strength from Mutalith
Re-roll failed charges or fight first from Mutalith
-1 AP from Mutalith

And of course the usual re-rolls to hit and wound from characters, and +1 to hit from Prescience, and Warp time! Then take them as renegades for advance and charge, or as Iron Warriors for 6+++ strat.

So we're potentially looking at a str 7 or even 8, AP -3, d3 or d3+1 attacks, 2W, maybe even t5, 4++, 6+++, that hits on 2's and re-rolls everything. And then +1 to wound from VotLW. And can probably get a first turn charge even against backline units, depending on the trait. It can threaten any unit on the board, and is quite hard to get rid of. Of course this takes a lot of buffs and strats, but this may get the most mileage out of that due to unit size and synergy.


Yep thats the same kind of tricks you can do with any marine demons / chaos demons. Tzeentch really can boost a lot of things to silly levels, the issue is the cost of the units your going to try these tricks on, how durable are they by themselves, and what can they do if things go wrong like you dont get those spells off or the enemy kills your vortex beasts before the target boostable unit gets into range to fight. Its why i love my defiler, its able to be boosted different ways to get the same awsome results but even if things go bad I can drop a cp for demonforged and get rerolls to hit and wound.

For slaanesh though i like the maulerfiend. M10, put next to a slaanesh herald on steed so it can advance and charge, have a sorcerer cast warptime and delightful agonies on it for (10+d6) x2 + 2d6 movement turn 1 on a unit with t7, 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds that can put out 10 attacks in cc vs something you want dead.... thats speed in a can of whoop ass right there.


Thats a lot for one smashy-bullet; people have been doing this with Defilers as well (because of the higher Str). The thing is, though, you have to have a vector to something thats worth pouring all this into a single model. I have a feeling screens are coming back more often, and armies like Orcs won't care about a Maulerfiend getting close, they want you to do that.

Tzeentch is my favorite when you talk about buffs though, they really can do a whole lot. Not to mention Ahriman is awesome, and with the reduction in points on the SOT's, I really think I want to run some for interference and chaff clearing; AP -2 stormbolters are pretty sweet

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Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)

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Not Online!!! wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.


If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)


I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!

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