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 Yarium wrote:
"Bash Bros":
Refers to taking both Mortarion and Magnus together in a single force. Magnus has very powerful psychic abilities, and will often take Warp Time, which he can cast on a 4+ (+2 to cast to meet the WC6), while rerolling rolls of 1 for doing so. This almost guarantees getting the power off, and Mortarion will get to move a second time, allowing Mortarion to move 24" before declaring charges, resulting in a massive threat range for a unit that is an unholy blender. If they get the first turn, and you haven't deployed against it properly, you will lose one or even two of your biggest and most important units.

After that, you merely have to deal with two Primarchs...

I feel that including both Magnus and Mortarion in the same army should include an extra rule:

- "Sibling Slap-fight: When Magnus and Mortarion are included in the same force, before the start of each of your turns, roll a D6. On a 4+, place Mortarion and Magnus in base contact with each other on a spot of the table of your choosing. They then fight each other as if it were the Fighting Phase. After these fighting instances have been resolved, place them back on their original positions. If they haven't killed each other that is."

Trollbert wrote:
My top candidate for problematic combos is the Endless Cacophony stratagem that makes Slaanesh CSM Infantry shoot their weapons again.

Obliterators were really good with it and until CA, it made Cultists the plague they were.

And most imporantly, it's one of the reasons why CSM can't have nice things. Any unit that is good without it would be OP with it.

I have to agree with this. If the stratagems end up being really powerful instead of minor tricks and buffs, so compare CSM stratagems Killshot 1CP and Blasphemous Machines 1CP with Endless Cacophony 2 CP or Fury of Khorne 3CP. These expensive stratagems just flat out double damage output, the first cheaper ones provide buff (although 'Killshot' is quite powerful if one gets it off!). Now because of the existence of these 'double your output' any point costs have to be balanced based on these being available. Additionally Endless Cacophony is guarantee that there is high barrier for allowing Havocs take over 4 heavy weapons, or that Chosen would be allowed to take more special weapons. Similarly I'm certain the Endless Cacophony is restricting price reductions to Terminators, the unit is kind of garbage if you don't do some Plasma-Terminator Alpha/Beta-strike with Endless Cacophony.

Above problems are partially because Stratagem CP costs are small integer numbers, and therefore hard/impossible to adjust by CP cost. One can easily see GW has tried to balance problematic Stratagems, like Tide of Traitors 2CP, with hard limit of once per game because the 3CP cost (+50% increase!) would have been quite excessive nerf. Similarly with current unit point costs, limitations and rules the Endless Cacophony would be almost trash tier if it cost 3CP to activate.
Now because the CP costs are nearly untouchable because of the base cost levels are low integer values, they have to balance the unit costs on stratagems available to them. This in turn forces infantry units with good firepower to be unnecessarily expensive because of the fire twice stratagem. Other option for this balancing is to make basic troops more expensive so the player ends using more points to farm CP, which leaves less points available to everything else.

There is relatively easy fix to this situation, just multiply every CP value everywhere by 10 and then even cheapest stratagem is 10 CP and every CP cost can be adjusted and balanced better relative to each other. This would allow to hike up the CP costs for most powerful and most spammed stratagems without totally making unplayable. Although this does not inherently remove the problem that unit point costs must be relative to the stratagems potentially available.
AoS I feel like does this stuff better. They have stratagems over there also, as command abilities but these are tied to specific character or can be only activated by characters and they have relatively short ranges, instead of 40k stratagems which mostly are 'global' in a sense that you can just activate it out of thin air if you have CP available.

Yvrainne and 10 dark reapers shooting twice and hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s (both due to Yvrainnes psychic powers) sitting on the back line in cover (as they have the range to hit anything and the firepower to deal with almost anything from a safe distance). probably not the most broken combo in the world but it has caused a feeling of imbalance...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s not this topic though.

You asked "the problem combos". They only really exist because of Command Points.

As much as it pains me to back up Kan, I've gotta agree. CPs are kinda integral to why a lot of these problem combos exist and are thus part of the topic.

I'd counter that CP in general are NOT the problem ... but the abundance they can be garnered in to rinse and repeat the stratagems.

the Game benefits from CP/stratagems ... some factions more so than others is the issue.

Back on topic though, and I know no one really rates Necrons yet but I love

Overlord uses MWBD on a unit of 6 destroyers then spend 1CP for Extermination protocols .. 18 shots hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's ... S6 AP-3 rerolling ALL wounds ... with D3 damage !

Something you want dead is usually dead in short order .. and with good positioning and terrain they can get to LoS blocking or sit on terrain with a 2+ save.

they are a crutch unit that are a must take in most lists .. but they are good at what they do

 Blackie wrote:

Now I abandoned that combo, because I hate deathstars and I have another style of playing, based on vehicles, but I used to put one of the 3-4 mobz of 30 boyz between the lootas and the gretchins. They let the gretchins be positioned further, which is vital for activating grot shields but they also filled up the space for flying assault oriented units because they were still 30 boyz under a KFF bubble with 60 gretchins spread out in front of them. They also provided LD to the lootas.

That ork wall is very kunnin. Blackie, please write up a blog with your batreps. Want to learn more from you, especially on your mechanised goff lists. Everyone else on dakka has written off goffs, I am a believer they're our best mechanised list thanks to skarboys. For Gork (or Mork's sake) please.

Cheeslord wrote:
Yvrainne and 10 dark reapers shooting twice and hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s (both due to Yvrainnes psychic powers) sitting on the back line in cover (as they have the range to hit anything and the firepower to deal with almost anything from a safe distance). probably not the most broken combo in the world but it has caused a feeling of imbalance...

Definitely one of the best shooting combos out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Overlord uses MWBD on a unit of 6 destroyers then spend 1CP for Extermination protocols .. 18 shots hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's ... S6 AP-3 rerolling ALL wounds ... with D3 damage !

Dito.

But these ''problem combos'' are not newly generated by FAQs or CA.
The question is are there new problem combos out there?

Is it CP thats the problem or stratagems. Agents of Vect is an amazing strat but has been nerfed and is still amazing.

I play a lot of Deathguard and I can run lists with 9 CP that I pretty much exclusively use on re-rolls and the odd interrupt. Very rarely I've used CP auto explode a vehicle but the codex has very poor strats yet still functions in a really good way. I can expect to compete and challenge in every game I play except against the hyper efficient lists that burn 5 CP a turn. The problem is the Stratagems and their costing.

Is there a general consensus that the BA Smash Captain is OP? One normarine jumping around thinking he is Thor hardly seems gamebreaking. (does anyone else feel like Thor's hammer belongs with the wolves?)

I am asking for a friend... not because I painted one and am playing my first 40K game in over 3 years tomorrow.

BA Smash Captain USED to be "OP", back when you could regenerate 100% of all CP used. Now you're capped to a single CP per turn it's useless as it deals some damage turn 2 then dies.

Jetbike Captains are particualrly bad as you have a 6W, T6 guy with a 4++ Invulnerable on a 14" platform, spitting out either 12 Bolter shots or a Multi-Melta shot. If you give him a particular Relic and WT he goes to a 3++ Invulnerable and a 5++ FNP. He benefits from Character targeting, so you can run a Knight Gallant alongside him and render him pretty much invulnerable. If he charges he gets 6 S6 Ap-3 Dd3 attacks which re-roll wounds. The 3++ Relics also allows you to re-roll your charges.

Personally I don't find them as bad as people make them out to be, what makes them bad is when you can take 3 of them in a SC Detachment for 475pts.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Jetbike Captains are particualrly bad as you have a 6W, T6 guy with a 4++ Invulnerable on a 14" platform, spitting out either 12 Bolter shots or a Multi-Melta shot. If you give him a particular Relic and WT he goes to a 3++ Invulnerable and a 5++ FNP. He benefits from Character targeting, so you can run a Knight Gallant alongside him and render him pretty much invulnerable. If he charges he gets 6 S6 Ap-3 Dd3 attacks which re-roll wounds. The 3++ Relics also allows you to re-roll your charges.

Personally I don't find them as bad as people make them out to be, what makes them bad is when you can take 3 of them in a SC Detachment for 475pts.

As much as he is really good. There is a slight mistake here... He has 5 attacks, not 6.

And you get diminishing returns on the next 2. The second wont have the 5+++ or the reroll charges, and the third wont have the 3++.

secretForge wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Jetbike Captains are particualrly bad as you have a 6W, T6 guy with a 4++ Invulnerable on a 14" platform, spitting out either 12 Bolter shots or a Multi-Melta shot. If you give him a particular Relic and WT he goes to a 3++ Invulnerable and a 5++ FNP. He benefits from Character targeting, so you can run a Knight Gallant alongside him and render him pretty much invulnerable. If he charges he gets 6 S6 Ap-3 Dd3 attacks which re-roll wounds. The 3++ Relics also allows you to re-roll your charges.

Personally I don't find them as bad as people make them out to be, what makes them bad is when you can take 3 of them in a SC Detachment for 475pts.

As much as he is really good. There is a slight mistake here... He has 5 attacks, not 6.

And you get diminishing returns on the next 2. The second wont have the 5+++ or the reroll charges, and the third wont have the 3++.

My mistake, I run mine with Misericordias so I have 6 attacks stuck in my head.

The second can still take a 3++ Relic, and the third can take VotBG for extra nastiness.

 Valkyrie wrote:

secretForge wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Jetbike Captains are particualrly bad as you have a 6W, T6 guy with a 4++ Invulnerable on a 14" platform, spitting out either 12 Bolter shots or a Multi-Melta shot. If you give him a particular Relic and WT he goes to a 3++ Invulnerable and a 5++ FNP. He benefits from Character targeting, so you can run a Knight Gallant alongside him and render him pretty much invulnerable. If he charges he gets 6 S6 Ap-3 Dd3 attacks which re-roll wounds. The 3++ Relics also allows you to re-roll your charges.

Personally I don't find them as bad as people make them out to be, what makes them bad is when you can take 3 of them in a SC Detachment for 475pts.

As much as he is really good. There is a slight mistake here... He has 5 attacks, not 6.

And you get diminishing returns on the next 2. The second wont have the 5+++ or the reroll charges, and the third wont have the 3++.

My mistake, I run mine with Misericordias so I have 6 attacks stuck in my head.

The second can still take a 3++ Relic, and the third can take VotBG for extra nastiness.

And now they also have 3 CP invested in them. Again, still a good choice, but... there are costs in addition to points to consider, and the diminishing returns aren't inconsequential.

I'm considering Trajan in replacement for the 3rd biker, but i don't know if the being infantry and being more dangerous and a third 3++, is worth the mobility and 25(edited mistake) points offset.

Cheeslord wrote:
Yvrainne and 10 dark reapers shooting twice and hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s (both due to Yvrainnes psychic powers) sitting on the back line in cover (as they have the range to hit anything and the firepower to deal with almost anything from a safe distance). probably not the most broken combo in the world but it has caused a feeling of imbalance...

Why? 3-4 Cadian Leman Russ do the same thing, no fickle psychic to fail, safe from denies, Culexus, shadow of the warp, etc..,not limited to one unit, not losing their chapter trait, not having an otherwise useless 130 pts tax HQ, not having an otherwise useless tax HQ that must be your warlord with a wasted WL trait, not losing the free relic for your army, not having to pass another fickle psychic power to get the re-roll 1s, T8 instead of T3 and 3-4 times the wounds, etc.., etc..

Double shooting Reapers aren’t actually that great compared to double-shooting Hive Guard, Lootsz, Leman Russ, etc..

The thing that pulls Eldar out is Doom (or Doom/Jinx).

If other double-shooting (and double-moving) units in armies like Orks, Nids, Slaanesh or Guard had access to Doom, you wouldn‘t ever see another Dark Reaper (or Shining Spear) in a tournament ever again.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Cheeslord wrote:
Yvrainne and 10 dark reapers shooting twice and hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s (both due to Yvrainnes psychic powers) sitting on the back line in cover (as they have the range to hit anything and the firepower to deal with almost anything from a safe distance). probably not the most broken combo in the world but it has caused a feeling of imbalance...

Why? 3-4 Cadian Leman Russ do the same thing, no fickle psychic to fail, safe from denies, Culexus, shadow of the warp, etc..,not limited to one unit, not losing their chapter trait, not having an otherwise useless 130 pts tax HQ, not having an otherwise useless tax HQ that must be your warlord with a wasted WL trait, not losing the free relic for your army, not having to pass another fickle psychic power to get the re-roll 1s, T8 instead of T3 and 3-4 times the wounds, etc.., etc..

Double shooting Reapers aren’t actually that great compared to double-shooting Hive Guard, Lootsz, Leman Russ, etc..

The thing that pulls Eldar out is Doom (or Doom/Jinx).

If other double-shooting (and double-moving) units in armies like Orks, Nids, Slaanesh or Guard had access to Doom, you wouldn‘t ever see another Dark Reaper (or Shining Spear) in a tournament ever again.

Double Shooting reapers, put out considerably more shots than hive guard (edit, no they dont my bad, but they do have better damage, which is kinda important), have a variable profile depending upon the idea target, just need a single wall to be immune to return fire unlike russes, can fallback and shoot, have the best interception strat in the game (tied with SW, but these guys take advantage of it better), can be -1 to hit on demand, have non variable damage which is huge, and can maximise buffs and debuffs due to their no ablative wounds nature. Oh and obviously arent subject to any - to hit modifiers, can shoot culexus without hitting on 6+ etc.

there are so many factors that make reapers great, that good units like hive guard, or russes, aren't truly comparable.

Of course, they are super super reliant on having some ruins with solid walls to hide in. But I've not seen an event in 18 months which hasn't adopted ITC ruin rules.

I know it's not game breaking compared to some others but I really enjoy the Death Guard Daemon Prince Chariot!

This is where you have a DP with wings surrounded by 3 Myphitic Blight Haulers and 3 Bloat Drones. They can all move quite fast so within threat range usually turn 1 but turn 2 maybe depending on deployment setup. Everything has a 3+/5++/5+++ and a decent amount of wounds and T7. Stick the Arch-Contaminator warlord trait on the DP and you're rerolling all the plaguespitter wound rolls from those drones which is great considering you have 6d6 auto hits once within range.

I know it's expensive but it's very fun and very annoying! Played a game against my friend's IG army, took two turns to get to him so had to endure one shooting phase from him. He fired 3 basiliks, 2 armigers and 1 tank commander, and only got one drone down to 2 wounds. Next turn was in his backlines shutting down those basiliks

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The Knight-Castellan with the warlord trait giving +1 to the Invulnerable save, stack with Rotate Ion Shields for a 3++ on your Knight, then with the fight at top profile stratagem damage doesn't make it worse at attacking, you can stack AdMech abilities to repair four hit points a turn, and if the enemy ever somehow kills it there's a stratagem that requires them to kill it again in the next phase because otherwise it's still alive and just gets to keep attacking.

(It's a massive CP-sink but it's also a good reason to concede the game during deployment because what follows is going to be a long, long slog through an endless series of "I attack! (rolls) It does nothing." going down towards your defeat with all the entertainment value of a game of Monopoly.)

Honorable mention to the Psychic Barrier/Take Cover combo out of the Guard book; combine them with cover on a Bullgryn unit and even after the Invul nerf you have a T5 unit that has a 2+ armour save against lascannons that you can't deliver enough volume to to actually kill, ever. (Before someone says "well, just avoid them, then?" the number of scenarios in the game that can be reasonably summed up as "king of the hill" (hold one or two crucial objectives) is non-trivial, round-by-round scoring nails your feet to the floor, and unless you're playing some flavour of Eldar it's entirely likely you can't actually outrun them.)

It is just incredible to me just how often people have claimed to me that Bullgryns are OP, despite them A, never having appeared commonly in tournament lists, at least to my knowledge, and B, having only received nerfs since the codex.

Bullgryns are still 42 point models that require loads of aura buffing, psychic powers and CP expenditure to make worth it...and still, if you need them to budge, 2/3 of those armor buffs go away in melee (cover+Get Down) and the third one is a psychic power you can deny. And even if they are unkillable to you, they don't do hardly anything in melee, it takes 9 to down a Rhino in a single turn.

secretForge wrote:

Of course, they are super super reliant on having some ruins with solid walls to hide in. But I've not seen an event in 18 months which hasn't adopted ITC ruin rules.

Well, never played ITC, but that seems like a major thing. Obviously I would assume GW designs the game more around GW terrain, roughly seen as in White Dwarf reports, etc.. and GW Missions which seem a lot less trivial than the ITC stuff where you can always pick the convenient objective near the Reapers for your hold sth./ hold more points.

If you introduce houserules like that, balance will inevitably be worse, unless ITC repoints every unit in the game to their framework of rules.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

secretForge wrote:

Of course, they are super super reliant on having some ruins with solid walls to hide in. But I've not seen an event in 18 months which hasn't adopted ITC ruin rules.

Well, never played ITC, but that seems like a major thing. Obviously I would assume GW designs the game more around GW terrain, roughly seen as in White Dwarf reports, etc.. and GW Missions which seem a lot less trivial than the ITC stuff where you can always pick the convenient objective near the Reapers for your hold sth./ hold more points.

If you introduce houserules like that, balance will inevitably be worse, unless ITC repoints every unit in the game to their framework of rules.

Yes, I tend to play a mixture of ITC and ETC mission packs, but even the ETC events, use the ITC ruin rules in the UK (or at least my areas of it). While I find the ITC missions superior to the GW ones.

That one change to the terrain rules, makes such a huge impact upon how good ynari / eldar are, its pretty crazy. And what surprises me more, is that the majority of people that I talk to, seem to believe that its a good way for terrain to be (and actively have made terrain that works, like ITC ruins, so even if ITC were to end that rule, terrain would just be that way now).

"just need a single wall to be immune to return fire unlike russes"
To use a stratagem that costs CP, so not as free as you make it sound. Still really good, though.
"can fallback and shoot"
Again, a strat, thus a CP cost. They do *not* have any such rule stock.
"have non variable damage which is huge"
Depends on the target. D2 is a lot better than Dd3 when shooting at 2W models. But not better vs 1W or 3W models. D3 is better than Dd6 vs 3W models, and slightly better vs 2W models, but no different vs 1W models and much worse vs anything with 4+W - which is almost everything you'd use that profile for.
"and can maximise buffs and debuffs due to their no ablative wounds nature."
Maximise their offensive buffs, but not their defensive buffs. SM Devs, even pre-CA, could out-survive Reapers much more per point than Reaperes could outshoot Devs by spending more points. No ablaitive wounds means Guide is more effective. And Shoot Twice. But has no impact on Doom, and is a negative for Fortune, LQR, Conceal, and Protect.
" Oh and obviously arent subject to any - to hit modifiers, can shoot culexus without hitting on 6+ etc."
I think that and Ynnari shoot-twice are the two things that put Reapers above SM Devs. Especially after CA.

Bharring wrote:
"just need a single wall to be immune to return fire unlike russes"
To use a stratagem that costs CP, so not as free as you make it sound. Still really good, though.
"can fallback and shoot"
Again, a strat, thus a CP cost. They do *not* have any such rule stock.
"have non variable damage which is huge"
Depends on the target. D2 is a lot better than Dd3 when shooting at 2W models. But not better vs 1W or 3W models. D3 is better than Dd6 vs 3W models, and slightly better vs 2W models, but no different vs 1W models and much worse vs anything with 4+W - which is almost everything you'd use that profile for.
"and can maximise buffs and debuffs due to their no ablative wounds nature."
Maximise their offensive buffs, but not their defensive buffs. SM Devs, even pre-CA, could out-survive Reapers much more per point than Reaperes could outshoot Devs by spending more points. No ablaitive wounds means Guide is more effective. And Shoot Twice. But has no impact on Doom, and is a negative for Fortune, LQR, Conceal, and Protect.
" Oh and obviously arent subject to any - to hit modifiers, can shoot culexus without hitting on 6+ etc."
I think that and Ynnari shoot-twice are the two things that put Reapers above SM Devs. Especially after CA.

Yes those things are all external to reapers as a unit. But they are also available to reapers, and obviously where a lot of their power comes from, to ignore these incredibly powerful tools which other fire support units dont have, is to ignore something incredibly important in our analysis. And as we are talking about combos in this thread, ignoring strategems, would be even more inappropriate.

The only other comparable support fire unit in the game, as far as sheer game winning power goes right now, is lootas. and to be fair lootas are, very very good.

I would rather have flat 3 damage generally than D6, and reapers can choose to have D2 x2 when needing to be more efficient vs smaller targets. My reasoning for prefering flat 3, to d6, is that D6, while potentially vastly outstripping flat 3 (anecdotally I have killed a knight with 4 missiles once before). most of the time will out perform flat 3 by .5 wounds per shot against high wound targets. However, there are a good number of 3 / 2 wound targets in the game. And if I had to pick between d6 and flat 3 vs those, im always going to want the one that guarantees the kill.

secretForge wrote:


Yes, I tend to play a mixture of ITC and ETC mission packs, but even the ETC events, use the ITC ruin rules in the UK (or at least my areas of it). While I find the ITC missions superior to the GW ones.

That one change to the terrain rules, makes such a huge impact upon how good ynari / eldar are, its pretty crazy. And what surprises me more, is that the majority of people that I talk to, seem to believe that its a good way for terrain to be (and actively have made terrain that works, like ITC ruins, so even if ITC were to end that rule, terrain would just be that way now).

Which is fine. I am all for variety and people experimenting with the rules. But correctly done, ITC, being a particularly widespread set of houserules, probably should publish modified point values for their particular set of rules. As terrain goes for example, probably a point increase to things like Hive Guard, Mortars, etc.. that can hide in the notably reduced LOS environment and shoot, possibly a CP increase to things like Fire and Fade, a point decrease to units/armies more reliant to LoS like Tau, a lot of guard, a point increase to most close combat stuff benefiting from those terrain rules, especially combat stuff with the infantry keyword, point decreases for things like Flyers which would find it harder to snipe out elite units or characters in ITC terrain, etc.., etc.., etc..

It always seemed to me that CPs should be locked to the detachment that brought them, not put in a general pool.

 argonak wrote:
It always seemed to me that CPs should be locked to the detachment that brought them, not put in a general pool.

I honestly thought they were going this way with the similar restrictions that are in the Gellerpox and Starstriders codexes, but such a thing has not seen the light of day so far.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 argonak wrote:
It always seemed to me that CPs should be locked to the detachment that brought them, not put in a general pool.

I honestly thought they were going this way with the similar restrictions that are in the Gellerpox and Starstriders codexes, but such a thing has not seen the light of day so far.

I've been out of 40k for all of 2018 (I moved and haven't been able to get back into the hobby), but I assumed they would be when I first bought the game. But people quickly informed me I was wrong. I was playing Guard only, or marines only, so it didn't affect me personally anyway.

Trollbert wrote:
My top candidate for problematic combos is the Endless Cacophony stratagem that makes Slaanesh CSM Infantry shoot their weapons again.

Obliterators were really good with it and until CA, it made Cultists the plague they were.

And most imporantly, it's one of the reasons why CSM can't have nice things. Any unit that is good without it would be OP with it.

Any strategems that shoots or fights twice is a problem in this game that either forces gw to suppress units or takes good but balanced units and makes them intensely op. More than half the things discussed in this thread generate from this sort of combo.