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So, for 1 point, you get AP-2 as compared to AP0?

Can I get that on Plaguebearers?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, for 1 point, you get AP-2 as compared to AP0?

Can I get that on Plaguebearers?

Again, in combat they are slightly better than a choppa boy, so yeah 1pt is fair.

Choppa boy in CC 3 attacks 2 hits, 1 wound and .333damage vs a marine
Burna boy in CC 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, .66 wounds for .44 damage vs a marine. At equal cost you get 7 Burna boyz at 8ppm and 8 boyz at 7ppm.

7 Burna boyz is 14 attacks, roughly 9.3 hits for 4.65 wounds and about 3 dead Marines
8 Choppa Boyz = 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds and 2.66 dead Marines.

Burna boyz become slightly better than Choppa boyz in CC...unless you have 20+ boyz in which case its lopsided as all hell and the Choppa boyz are still better

Did you miss the bit where you also wanted to give your 8 PPM Burnas an extra attack from their weapon?

And what if you're fighting, say, Terminators?

24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 1.17 wounds from Choppa Boyz.
14 attacks, 9.33 hits, 4.67 wounds, 2.33 wounds from Burna Boyz.

TWICE as good.

For comparison-how many points would you charge Plaguebearers to gain AP-2 on all their attacks?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, for 1 point, you get AP-2 as compared to AP0?

Can I get that on Plaguebearers?

Yeah AP-2 but they also lose the troops role. 5-15 t-shirt save dudes can be killed by a single volley of shooting.

Assuming that the unit reaches combat at max strenght (not very likely), it's a grand total of 31A with WS3+. 21 hits at S4 AP-2 for 120 points or 135 if they are 9ppm. They'd also need a transport which means a 160 points investment for 12 dudes in a trukk or 240 for 15 in a BW, both options aren't that cheap considering ork standards. Flash gitz should cause the same amount of damage per point, even without their kultur trait, while also being more resilient.

I honestly don't see anything that would break the game, in fact I'd probably use those burna boyz only in friendly games anyway, but at least they could be a legit choice.

There's no reason why burna boyz shouldn't be priced like storm boyz or kommandos. 8-9 ppm is fair. 10-11 if they get proper D6 flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:


For comparison-how many points would you charge Plaguebearers to gain AP-2 on all their attacks?

I don't know but consider that they'd lose their troop role, their max size and all their FNP shenanigans. Like burna boyz lose all boyz bonuses. Would you consider 5-15 elites plaguebearers for +1/2ppm which only have their profile rules, no chapter shenanigans, but AP-2 in combat? Because plaguebeares, unlike burna boyz, can get tons of free buffs so the comparison between the two units isn't extremely fair.

Burna Boyz lose being troops, and massive unit sizes.

They don't lose Painboy buffs, WAAAGH! banner buffs, advance and charge from Warbosses, their Kultur...

So why on earth would Plaguebearers lose everything?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Burna Boyz lose being troops, and massive unit sizes.

They don't lose Painboy buffs, WAAAGH! banner buffs, advance and charge from Warbosses, their Kultur...

So why on earth would Plaguebearers lose everything?

They lose DDD and what kulture benefits them the most? Bad Moonz doesn't help, nor does Evil Sunz since they have to be in a vehicle, Deff Skullz would make them a tiny bit more resilient...but not by much, same for snakebites and I can't see how Blood Axes would help them at all past maybe turn 1.

Advance and charge from Warbosses is fine....except that means they are foot slogging which means easy target for basically any ranged weapon in the game. Waaagh banner is still their but again foot slogging and ohh yeah, you are adding in hundreds of points of models to make a crap unit slightly less crap...but still very much crap.

Burna Boyz are utterly useless atm because they cost way too much and don't do nearly enough damage to justify their existence.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Burna Boyz lose being troops, and massive unit sizes.

They don't lose Painboy buffs, WAAAGH! banner buffs, advance and charge from Warbosses, their Kultur...

So why on earth would Plaguebearers lose everything?

Simply because those ork buffs you listed are designed to help other units mostly. Litterally no one plans on using the banner and the FNP on burna boyz because they're not a great combo for the points they cost.

Plaguebearers are designed to be buffed a lot, efficiently and quite easily, that's why they don't get an AP-2. Burna boyz don't benefit that much from things that buff boyz.

Making them assault D6 makes sense but having ap on shooting makes no sense fluff wise. But if they are D6 then they have to be max ten per squad. The start isn’t a bad idea though. Maybe allow it for over watch too. As it stands I think of them as a melee unit with a bit of a bonus in the shooting phase.

Or pos go back to where you had to choose between using the shooting profile or the melee one during a turn.

always thought the AP in assault made sense, using the gas cutter used to light the thing as a weapon, plus concentrated flame up close (though while there should be some chance of blow back on the ork, the way they usually die anyway nicely negates this)

there is no reason for them to be better at range v armour than any other 'normal' flame weapon

leopard wrote:
always thought the AP in assault made sense, using the gas cutter used to light the thing as a weapon, plus concentrated flame up close (though while there should be some chance of blow back on the ork, the way they usually die anyway nicely negates this)

there is no reason for them to be better at range v armour than any other 'normal' flame weapon

Exactly.

The biggest problem I had with the "Choose which weapon to use" rule from previous iterations was that it was never really a choice. If you are still in your vehicle (which they always were) you clearly used the flamer. If your vehicle was blown up and you were within flame template range....you flamed anyway, which made the CC portion basically useless. The only time you didn't use the flamer option was if you were outside the range of the weapon and wanted to attempt a charge.

But as I have already shown and someone else added to, the only time the -2 in CC is better is vs 2+ armor. 3+ its just as good for a choppa boy. as for 4+ armor.....

15 Burnas ATM is 180pts, for the same cost you can take 25 almost 26 Choppa boyz. In CC those 15 Burnas get 30 attacks, 20 hits and 10 wounds (Vs T4 4+ save) which is 8.4ish dead models, The 25 Boyz get 100 attacks 67ish hits and 33ish wounds for 16 dead Models. If its shoota boyz instead of choppa thats 75 attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5 dead Models.

Once the boyz get their +1 attack for 20+ models it isn't even close, and at range, shoota boyz out range Burna's by 10' which means they are more likely to get off another shooting attack which the Burna's probably won't get.

Burna's need something that pushes them over the edge and makes them playable.

I've wondered about making the Burna a Range 12 weapon and D6 and leaving it as is far as points go...maybe give them a 5+ save. That way they function in Deep strike and can be used at the very least as a screen clearing unit.

SemperMortis wrote:
The biggest problem I had with the "Choose which weapon to use" rule from previous iterations was that it was never really a choice. If you are still in your vehicle (which they always were) you clearly used the flamer. If your vehicle was blown up and you were within flame template range....you flamed anyway, which made the CC portion basically useless. The only time you didn't use the flamer option was if you were outside the range of the weapon and wanted to attempt a charge.

But as I have already shown and someone else added to, the only time the -2 in CC is better is vs 2+ armor. 3+ its just as good for a choppa boy. as for 4+ armor.....

15 Burnas ATM is 180pts, for the same cost you can take 25 almost 26 Choppa boyz. In CC those 15 Burnas get 30 attacks, 20 hits and 10 wounds (Vs T4 4+ save) which is 8.4ish dead models, The 25 Boyz get 100 attacks 67ish hits and 33ish wounds for 16 dead Models. If its shoota boyz instead of choppa thats 75 attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5 dead Models.

Once the boyz get their +1 attack for 20+ models it isn't even close, and at range, shoota boyz out range Burna's by 10' which means they are more likely to get off another shooting attack which the Burna's probably won't get.

Burna's need something that pushes them over the edge and makes them playable.

I've wondered about making the Burna a Range 12 weapon and D6 and leaving it as is far as points go...maybe give them a 5+ save. That way they function in Deep strike and can be used at the very least as a screen clearing unit.

Mine never were in trucks and I often used the close combat version. I never like the argument that the rules don’t work because you would only ever play it a certain way. But if you aren’t an optimising power gamer you can play them many ways. U aren’t forced to play then the internet approved way.

The 5+ Save is a decent idea, they do look more armoured than boyz. But making them a deep striking ranged flamer is too much. My money is still on D6 shots but max unit size of ten. No change to stats. They don’t have to better than x or y. Just different.

Andykp wrote:


Mine never were in trucks and I often used the close combat version. I never like the argument that the rules don’t work because you would only ever play it a certain way. But if you aren’t an optimising power gamer you can play them many ways. U aren’t forced to play then the internet approved way.

The 5+ Save is a decent idea, they do look more armoured than boyz. But making them a deep striking ranged flamer is too much. My money is still on D6 shots but max unit size of ten. No change to stats. They don’t have to better than x or y. Just different.

Andykp, this is a matter of competitive Vs Fluffy. If you want the other option, that is fine, than since it isn't remotely competitive, they shouldn't have to pay for it in competitive games. The only reason I have had any CC use out of Burna's at all is because they now can use both modes....which neither is worth much since a standard Shoota boy outperformed them pt for pt before they got nerfed.

Making them D6 is fine, but it doesn't address the biggest issue with them, and that is in an actually competitive game, they REQUIRE a vehicle to function past turn 1 since they are too expensive and have no armor to speak of and to add insult to injury, they can't even do damage for at least the 1st turn. So at 12pts a model and requiring at the minimum a 65pt trukk you are paying 185pts for a unit that AT BEST can put out 30 S4 shots a turn, and that is under super optimal circumstances. The 185ish Point unit can put out 30 S4 shots which is 15 wounds vs T4 and 5 dead Marines on average, and that is only on turn 2 since there is no way they are getting in range turn 1.

For about that same price you can field a unit of 20 Shoota boyz and a weirdboy and tellyporta them turn 1 into range to shoot and than charge a unit which is significantly more damaging than a turn 2 chance to inflict some flamer shots which average only 20 shots and 3.33 dead Marines a turn.

If you want Burna's to be useful and see play time in anything beyond fluffy games you need to address these issues. We could think outside the box and give them some absurd rule like deep striking or D2 or some other thing, but when we have several units that do the exact same job better than them, they won't see much competitive play time.

I'd love the D6 shots and the max size of 10, maybe 12 since I'd never footslog them (yeah, I hate footsloggers unless they're min squads of 5 dudes) or use a crappy T7 BW. So they'd ride in a trukk or stay home, that's why I couldn't care less about having the change of bringing a unit of more than 10 burna boyz. At 12ppm even with D6 autohits 15 t-shirt dudes don't look broken at all though.

at 12ppm with T4 and 6+ saves, you could give them D6+3 and it wouldn't be broken if they had to foot slog

But they don't have to footslog it.

You can't balance around the weakest they can be.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But they don't have to footslog it.

You can't balance around the weakest they can be.

This is why other games allocate transport options to units, and don't allow units to swap about - in effect think of a trukk or other dedicated transport as not something you buy, but as equipment for a unit.

yes you can decline it and buy a more expensive battle wagon, but it then becomes reasonably easy to say certain units cannot have a cheap transport option for whatever contrived fluff reason is desired.

Burna boyz (for example) could then have a trukk option with a different cost to other units, to reflect it making them more useful - the point cost is meant to be a measure of effectiveness in the game after all and not an economic build cost.


then you allow characters to hitch a ride, but not other units (who wants other going through your stash of snacks?)

That's an interesting idea, but would require a significantly more complete overhaul than what has been proposed here.

I'm not saying it's bad-I actually like it. I just think it's beyond the scope of this thread.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's an interesting idea, but would require a significantly more complete overhaul than what has been proposed here.

I'm not saying it's bad-I actually like it. I just think it's beyond the scope of this thread.

oh for sure, that was just a note as a way around balancing the unit with/without a transport, as thats basically the only way to do that.

you could however give then a 1d6 flamer, and then have it cost 'x' for the base unit and 'y' for any over and above that (or make the boyz themselves cost a bit more) as a balance thing, small unit gets cheaper, a couple of small units are cheap but trying to spam larger ones gets expensive.

essentially how 30k handles it

ironically, that is how it used to be in 4th. You purchased the transport for the unit not for the army.